Mosque going up in NYC building

[Machjo]

And an example of Muslim attempts to build bridges come from the building of the centre itself, as it will be open to the general community.

[Bob]

Bob,

Not sure if you've seen the myriad discussions we've had on this board on that topic.

It's pretty difficult to quantify the misdeeds done by extremists for any religion, let alone to compare them. And how are you going to factor that in over time? Furthermore, how do you quantify these deeds as being attributable to religion and not culture.

It's a problem.

Just because we can't empirically quantify these things like measuring oranges at the grocery store doesn't mean we don't have enough sense to recognize dangerous trends and rank them in order of severity. It doesn't take a genius to realize that Christian fundamentalism resulting in the murder of abortion doctors is hardly comparable to the threat faced by us from Islamic terrorism. I sure hope I don't need to go into details to explain why that is, it should be obvious.

With respect to religion and culture, of course this is more complex and nuanced. There is a great degree of overlap between these two concepts, and of course Islam cannot be seen as a monolithic entity without great variation between those who identify themselves as belonging to that group. Still, there are serious problems in the Muslim community that need to be addressed domestically, but more importantly, abroad. For example, I don't think it's as likely for honour killings to take place in Toronto as in Karachi.

[Bob]

And an example of Muslim attempts to build bridges come from the building of the centre itself, as it will be open to the general community.

I agree, somewhat.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Rauf. But from what I've read, tht congregation is intent on building bridges, so they are making efforts. What more do we expect from them? THey only have 24 hours in a day and many of them, born in the US, are in no position to really do much about the Middle East. They are not politicians after all.

And yes I agree that a religious leader ought to bow out of political commentary.

How about the Middle East adopting democracy and pluralism, for starters?

[Machjo]

And if that's not enough, there is also this:

http://nswas.org/

A joint Muslim-Jewish endeavour in Israel.

And this:

So it would seem that teacher is happy with what she's doing. So what more do you want her to do?

As you can see, there are various persons and groups doing what they can.

The Odawa Muslim I'd met was working at the Odawa Community Centre, so obviously she still maintains good relations with the local First Nations. Honestly, what more do you expect from them?

[Machjo]

How about the Middle East adopting democracy and pluralism, for starters?

So you expect individual Muslims living in North America to be able to overthrow foreign regimes?!

Even a whole congregation could not do that. Add to that that should religion really mix with politics?

Edited June 13, 2010 by Machjo

[Bob]

Just to take an example, I remember meeting an Odawa Muslim a last year. So would you hold her accountable for what's going on in the Middle East even though her family roots go back to pre-European North America?

Remember, Islam is not an ethnic group, but a religious community. And even if it were an ethnic group, how can you blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some of tis members?

Certainly we're not now going to say that a Canadian First Nations' member who adopts Islam is only allowed to do so if he accepts the blame for all Muslims are you?

What I was trying to get at is that I believe there is an element of complicity among the broader Muslim community which contributes to a culture more likely to breed terrorism and extremism. I've had candid talks with my Muslim friends, and they all have shared with me that they were exposed to anti-semitic messages growing up and still get them from their family. These aren't trashy families, either, for example one of my Pakistani friends tells me regularly about his mother's (she's a medical/science professional) not-so-subtle anti-semitism. I've seen anti-semitism from all sorts of Muslim communities, in Ottawa and Toronto as well as Jerusalem and Paris. This common theme of anti-semitism by natural extension leads to a hatred of those associated with Israel, primarily the USA. There's a lot to be said about this complex subject, but all I'm trying to get across is that you shouldn't be naive to the realities that there are some very disturbing cultural/political/social trends that are common among the broader Muslim community that any sensible would find abhorrent - and these trends have exploded far beyond the dinner table and have been for decades.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Bob

[Michael Hardner]

Is that a joke? You don't think the broader Muslim community needs to do some serious introspection and more seriously tackle the problem of indoctrination and incitement?

Huh ? We didn't even touch on that - here's your question again:

"Are you implying that America has something to apologize for towards Muslims, or that America and its citizens need to do a mea culpa to obtain Muslim forgiveness?"

There's a gap to be bridged, for sure, but the primary responsibility for building this bridge lies with the broader Muslim world.

Right.

I doubt that the people in those videos will accept bridging, though. What would they want ?

[Bob]

So you expect individual Muslims living in North America to be able to overthrow foreign regimes?!

Even a whole congregation could not do that. Add to that that should religion really mix with politics?

That's not what I meant, and I anticipated this response from you. What I meant was that earlier, when I was talking about the Muslim community making moves to make amends with America and the West, I intended to refer much more strongly to the Muslim community abroad, particularly in the Middle East. Don't expect us to like them if they continue to conduct themselves the way they do.

[Machjo]

What I was trying to get at is that I believe there is an element of complicity among the broader Muslim community which contributes to a culture more likely to breed terrorism and extremism. I've had candid talks with my Muslim friends, and they all have shared with me that they were exposed to anti-semitic messages growing up and still get them from their family. These aren't trashy families, either, for example one of my Pakistani friends tells me regularly about his mother's (she's a medical/science professional) not-so-subtle anti-semitism. I've seen anti-semitism from all sorts of Muslim communities, in Ottawa and Toronto as well as Jerusalem and Paris. This common theme of anti-semitism by natural extension leads to a hatred of those associated with Israel, primarily the USA. There's a lot to be said about this complex subject, but all I'm trying to get across is that you shouldn't be naive to the realities that there are some very disturbing cultural/political/social trends that are common among the broader Muslim community that any sensible would find abhorrent - and these trends have exploded far beyond the dinner table and have been for decades.

I know self-professed Christians who are anti-semitic and racist too, and have even heard such comments as a kid. So, do we hold Christians accountable for this?

If a Christian does not engage in racism and anti-semitism himself then he's done all he could. What more are we to expect from him? So the same for Muslims? We can't blame all Muslims because of a problem in the Muslim community. In a video above, Rauf mentions holding talks with the local Jewish community which approved the centre, so clearly he wants to work with the local Jewish community. And again, not all Muslims are Pakistanis. Some are even Swedish, First Nations, for all I know some might even be Inuit.

[Machjo]

That's not what I meant, and I anticipated this response from you. What I meant was that earlier, when I was talking about the Muslim community making moves to make amends with America and the West, I intended to refer much more strongly to the Muslim community abroad, particularly in the Middle East. Don't expect us to like them if they continue to conduct themselves the way they do.

Who's them? The Muslims in the Middle East? All Muslims? This particular congregation? Certain other Muslims? certain self-professed Muslims who may or may not be Muslim?

A NYC congregation should not be held responsible for what's going on in the Middle East.

[Bob]

Huh ? We didn't even touch on that - here's your question again:

"Are you implying that America has something to apologize for towards Muslims, or that America and its citizens need to do a mea culpa to obtain Muslim forgiveness?"

Introspection would then lead to a mea culpa from the broader Muslim world towards America and the West. What I was driving at was that if any large collective should apologize to any other large collection, it needs to come from the broader Muslim community to the USA, and not the other way around. The USA has little to apologize for, especially with respect to the responsibility for the depravity and totalitarianism of the Muslim Middle East.

Right.

I doubt that the people in those videos will accept bridging, though. What would they want ?

What's your point?

Edited June 13, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

Who's them? The Muslims in the Middle East? All Muslims? This particular congregation? Certain other Muslims? certain self-professed Muslims who may or may not be Muslim?

All Muslims from predominantly Muslim countries.

A NYC congregation should not be held responsible for what's going on in the Middle East.

I agree.

[Machjo]

Introspection would then lead to a mea culpa from the broader Muslim world towards America and the West. What I was driving at was that if any large collective should apologize to any other large collection, it needs to come from the broader Muslim community to the USA, and not the other way around. The USA has little to apologize for, especially with respect to the responsibility for the depravity and totalitarianism of the Muslim Middle East.

So if the local Muslim community denounces 9/11 as against the principles of Islam, we criticize them for not asking forgiveness. Yet if they asked for forgiveness for the perpetrators of 9/11, all hell would break loose. I think they did the right thing. What? Are you trying to give them a beating?

[Machjo]

By the way, no American should apologize should ask for forgiveness from the broader Muslim community for what other Americans may have done to Muslims. The only Muslims who should ask forgiveness from the US are those who have done wrong. Bin Laden comes to mind as one person who should ask for forgiveness. And the only Americans who should ask forgiveness from Muslims are those who did in fact beat Muslims or firebomb mosques.

[Machjo]

All Muslims from predominantly Muslim countries.

Even if they had nothing to do with the regime?

Should I be held responsible for the actions of my government?

Edited June 13, 2010 by Machjo

[Michael Hardner]

Introspection would then lead to a mea culpa from the broader Muslim world towards America and the West. What I was driving at was that if any large collective should apologize to any other large collection, it needs to come from the broader Muslim community to the USA, and not the other way around.

There have already been efforts made, but as I said protesters like these don't care.

Who knows what they want? They seem to just not like Muslims.

[Machjo]

All Muslims from predominantly Muslim countries.

I agree.

And what about a NYC congregation comprising Muslims from the Middle East and some not from the Middle East? Is that congregation X% responsible? Should it say we are X% sorry for what some foreign governemnt may have done to you?

[Machjo]

There have already been efforts made, but as I said protesters like these don't care.

Who knows what they want? They seem to just not like Muslims.

You can't negotiate with that.

[Michael Hardner]

Just because we can't empirically quantify these things like measuring oranges at the grocery store doesn't mean we don't have enough sense to recognize dangerous trends and rank them in order of severity. It doesn't take a genius to realize that Christian fundamentalism resulting in the murder of abortion doctors is hardly comparable to the threat faced by us from Islamic terrorism. I sure hope I don't need to go into details to explain why that is, it should be obvious.

With respect to religion and culture, of course this is more complex and nuanced. There is a great degree of overlap between these two concepts, and of course Islam cannot be seen as a monolithic entity without great variation between those who identify themselves as belonging to that group. Still, there are serious problems in the Muslim community that need to be addressed domestically, but more importantly, abroad. For example, I don't think it's as likely for honour killings to take place in Toronto as in Karachi.

To say that the threat is greater is likely true, but what are we using that information for? If we are trying to determine how to protect our airports, then that information is useful. It isn't useful if we're talking about whether a Mosque should be built near the WTC site.

[Machjo]

Also, a convert to Islam is likely to be attracted to the teachings of the Qur'an and ahadith, and not to Middle eastern traditions that have nothing to do with Islam.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Machjo

[Michael Hardner]

Also, a convert to Islam is likely to be attracted to the teachings of the Qur'an and ahadith, and not to Middle eastern traditions that have nothing to do with Islam.

Unless they are just an unhinged individual who is attracted to the religion because of the prejudices that are prevalent. I think the person who made comments about South Park was such a convert.

[jonasmichael]

so what?

[GostHacked]

American Woman.

I thought this might be of interest, I did not want to start another topic on it, since it really seems to fit here.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4238242/wtc-investor-controversy (video)

Looks like some rich Arabs want to invest in the WTC center site. Companies tied to UAE and Saudi Arabia.

If the Mosque got you upset, this should absolutely outrage you.

I would turn down all money offered from the UAE or Saudi Arabia. But the US has many ties with the Saudis, so I have a feeling this will go through.

[Machjo]

American Woman.

I thought this might be of interest, I did not want to start another topic on it, since it really seems to fit here.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4238242/wtc-investor-controversy (video)

Looks like some rich Arabs want to invest in the WTC center site. Companies tied to UAE and Saudi Arabia.

If the Mosque got you upset, this should absolutely outrage you.

I would turn down all money offered from the UAE or Saudi Arabia. But the US has many ties with the Saudis, so I have a feeling this will go through.

That was a confusing an dizzying video. First off, he confounds the partnership between governments and companies wanting to build a building on the WTC site, and then falsely states that a mosque will be built there, when in fact the mosque will be built near, not on, the site, not to mention that it's a separate unrelated project funded by a separate organization. Even this video in all its fallacies never claims that the source of funding for the two is the same.

Then he goes on to confound Middle-Eastern companies and governments with Al-Qaeda. Sure many in al-Qaeda are Saudis just as the KKK is American. That does not mean that all Saudis are with Al-Qaeda any more than all Americans are with the KKK.

And sure these companies are owned by governments that violate international laws, especially with respect to freedom of religion. But there is no indication that US laws would be exempted from the WTC site, so what's the worry there.

And again, even this video, in spite of the fallacy that the mosque will be built on the site rather than near the site, never claims any relationship between the mosque issue and this other issue other than... one is Arab, the other Muslim, and since Is;am started in the Middle East, let's lump them all together.