Is it OK to insult Islam in Canada?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Says you. We don't even know how many civilians died. Was it 50,000 or 500,000? Either way they paid the price. I wonder how many Saddam would have killed in that time?

To quote Jean Kirkpatrick, a woman whom I admire for her intellectual capacity:

"Autocrats do not disturb the habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations. Because the miseries of traditional life are familiar, they are bearable to ordinary people who, growing up in that society, learn to cope ."

Meaning that it is CHANGE that is actually more unbearable. And that is what was done to them. They are closer to harsh theocracy now than they ever were under Saddam, despite his dictatorship.

Meet the new boss...

And it was GW Bush who often acknowledged behind closed doors the long term nature of the struggle necessary to civilize these barbaric regions. Iraq was a start - and a good one. Look what happen in Iran after Iraq got free elections: the people rose up. So Bush was right all along. Unfortunately, Obama sided with the mullahs, carefully hedging his public bets. How could he side with the uprising in Iran when he had publically promised to "extand a hand" to the mullahs?

I guess sometimes all this "nuanced diplomacy" bullshit isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Bush was right. Admit it. And now Obama's f*cking it up.

Edited April 18, 2010 by JerrySeinfeld

[Born Free]

And it was GW Bush who often acknowledged behind closed doors the long term nature of the struggle necessary to civilize these barbaric regions. Iraq was a start - and a good one. Look what happen in Iran after Iraq got free elections: the people rose up. So Bush was right all along. Unfortunately, Obama sided with the mullahs, carefully hedging his public bets. How could he side with the uprising in Iran when he had publically promised to "extand a hand" to the mullahs?

I guess sometimes all this "nuanced diplomacy" bullshit isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Bush was right. Admit it. And now Obama's f*cking it up.

Actually, Bush was wrong and the US is paying through the nose for it. The barbaric regions are still barbaric and will always be barbaric.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Born Free

[JerrySeinfeld]

Actually, Bush was wrong and the US is paying throught the nose for it. The barbaric regions are still barbaric and will always be barbaric.

Oh really? Obama has spent 3 times what the Iraq war cost in less than one year, on government earmarks for democrats largely.

Meantime Iraq is having free and open national elections which includes long sought after sunni participation and Iranian uprisings are demanding more freedoms and democracy. This path was set by Bush and Obama wants to dismantle it.

[Born Free]

Oh really? Obama has spent 3 times what the Iraq war cost in less than one year, on government earmarks for democrats largely.

Meantime Iraq is having free and open national elections which includes long sought after sunni participation and Iranian uprisings are demanding more freedoms and democracy. This path was set by Bush and Obama wants to dismantle it.

Well actually the expenditures by Obama (intended to fix a problem created by Bush) pale by comparison to the cost of running two wars that have lasted longer than WWII...

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, Bush was wrong and the US is paying through the nose for it. The barbaric regions are still barbaric and will always be barbaric.

No...Bush was right because now Canadians aren't afraid to insult Islam, or debate insulting Islam.

[Born Free]

No...Bush was right because now Canadians aren't afraid to insult Islam, or debate insulting Islam.

No...Bush was wrong for his inbreeding and producing dorks like you.

[bush_cheney2004]

No...Bush was wrong for his inbreeding and producing dorks like you.

Profound words from the teenage mind...President Bush is all you have ever known.

[justme]

Interesing clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_83AZD4TgoQ&feature=related

"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome." -- Winston Churchill

Can you imagine what the reaction would be if a bunch of Christians yelled in the streets of Riyadh that Christianity will dominate in Saudi Arabia and made death threats to Muslims? Britain needs to grow a spine and kick these SOBs out, but they'll find refuge in marxistculturalism multiculturalism, and thus that is the greatest threat to the West.

Geert Wilders is following Churchill's example by recognizing the threat, speaking out about it and refusing to give in, and he's gaining support, but unfortunately, there are too many Chamberlains around.

"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." -- Winston Churchill

[justme]

No...Bush was right because now Canadians aren't afraid to insult Islam, or debate insulting Islam.

I never was, but I concede that the country has been choking on political correctness.

[justme]

Well actually the expenditures by Obama (intended to fix a problem created by Bush) pale by comparison to the cost of running two wars that have lasted longer than WWII...

erm... better check your math. Bush's deficits were measured in the billions; Obama's deficits are measured in the trillions.

And what problems are the expenditures intended to fix? The financial crisis that started under Bill Clinton or the wars that Obama is continuing?

[bush_cheney2004]

erm... better check your math. Bush's deficits were measured in the billions; Obama's deficits are measured in the trillions.

And what problems are the expenditures intended to fix? The financial crisis that started under Bill Clinton or the wars that Obama is continuing?

Correct....these are American domestic and foreign policy decisions made over several administrations. Picking one over the other (from Canada) is meaningless.

[jbg]

Geert Wilders is following Churchill's example by recognizing the threat, speaking out about it and refusing to give in, and he's gaining support, but unfortunately, there are too many Chamberlains around.

There are always some people who get it and most who don't.

Pre-911 there were cadres of diplomats scurrying around the world conducting diplomacy as usual. Despite "chatter" that a major attack was looming I am quite certain that none of these ambassadors or their staffs pressed their sources in the Islamic world to find out was was gong to happen. No one wants to disrupt business as usual.

It is far far easier to worry about "comprehensive" Mid-East peace then to focus on real-life problems that can and must be addressed.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael I believe the mistake you've made here - and one that many Muslim apologists make - is that Islam is more than a religion; it is a political project, which envelopes the arenas of culture, government, freedom of speech, etc.

Jerry - these are questions that we've already discussed prior to your absence from the board.

I certainly don't want to recap the discussion yet again, only to have you leave for awhile then return with the same points from the past.

How else would you explain the Canadian Islamic Congress trying to shut down Mark Steyn or Ezra levant? The motivation certainly wasn't because anyone was preventing them from worship. No. The motivation has more to do with a prominent Islamic group attempting to dominate and overturn our fundamental freedoms in the charter, simply because they are "insulted".

You're back to your old habits - misrepresenting things. As I remember, when these are pointed out to you, you never retract your statements or apologize, but simply move on to another accusation.

From the National Post article, it wasn't about being insulted but...

Maclean's is "flagrantly Islamophobic" and "subjects Canadian Muslims to hatred and contempt" according to a CIC statement. "I felt personally victimized," said Khurrum Awan at the CIC's recent press conference.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/most_popular/story.html?id=175234#ixzz0lU4CJWdE

You yourself have chosen to criticize other religions an cultures on this page. You should be thankful you enjoy this right, but by excercising that right you have answered my question: yes it should be OK to insult any religion, and Islam is not beyond debate, not should it be.

This is as close as I come to criticizing a religion on this thread:

Dingbats, as you call them, do have patriarchal cults that are Christian based.

You on the other hand make a blanked statement that Islam is a political project.

If the CIC had won, we would be that much closer to Sharia in this very country.

More hyperbole and overstating the case from you.

The very fact that the CIC took this case to "trial" is evidence of the Islamic community's lack of respect for the fundamental institutions upon which our society (and other societies) is founded.

In their minds, it is "Islam first, fundamental freedoms second". This lack of respect, or at the very least, understanding, for the foundation of democracy is troubling, no?

Your continued baseless attacks on Islam have passed the line. The fact that you refuse to amend your many mistakes and plow forward without any regards to inaccuracies tells me that you come here with an agenda to deceive and slander.

I have given you more than enough chance to debate these things fairly, but you continue to come back and repeat the same bad practices that you've always used.

[Sir Bandelot]

Meantime Iraq is having free and open national elections which includes long sought after sunni participation

The Sunnis, who are a smaller population are considered more moderate than the Shiites. They used to be empowered under Saddam, who was himself a Sunni and must have made sure that the minority Sunni sect had more sway. Majority Shiites were repressed. It's the other way around now.

Iran by the way is a country dominated by Shiites, the Ayatollahs. So in one sense the Iraq war gave more power to the Shiites who are the more harsh fundamentalist group, and this is good for the Ayatollahs.

[Michael Hardner]

Iraq is a changed place from 4 years ago.

And yet it's still run by Muslims. How do you explain that, given that they are part of that 'political project' ? (Your words)

[JerrySeinfeld]

Michael - when you reply to my case with one line drive by dismissal it makes it very difficult to have a debate. You as moderator should be aware of this.

Remember this is an online forum. People have lives, too. You can't compel someonee to reply to you on your clock if they have a dinner to attend or a show to get to or maybe a hockey game got their attention because the people online weren't giving them a decent enough mental workout.

But in the spirit of debate I will try to coagulate your one liners with a coherent more than one line reply worthy of rebuttal and debate.

First, I do absolutely assert that Islam is a political project. Look at the evidence. If you are a group that attempts not solely to worship, but to undermine the very articles of the charter of rights and freedoms by undermining freedom of expression, one of the fundamental tenets off democracy, then it extends beyong a mere religion.

How exactly have I misrepresented things? I state the simple facts of the case:

1. MacLeans ran a column about demographic trends and Islam - admittedly not the most flattering article.

2. CIC filed a complaint because they felt offended or "personally victimized".

3. In doing so, have attempted to undermine freedom of press and expression in this country toward anyone who says something inflammatory about Islam.

These are the facts. This is not misrepresentation. Michael, just because you throw around terms like "misrepresentation" or "Islamophobic" doesn't exclude you from having to debate facts.

Here, have a look at this clip from a similar case overseas in Britain/Denmark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_83AZD4TgoQ&feature=related

Now, given that these are two similar cases of Islamic representatives refusing to accept the simple concept of freeedom of expression/discourse/press in our democracy (one trying to overturn the very concept through the "courts" and the other threatening violence and death), it's clear Islam is more than simply a religion, but a political project aimed directly at undermining the very traditions of democracy.

And please Michael, in the future try to actually write something.

If all you do is say "you're wrong" or "you're overrepresenting", then you're not debating, you're just contradicting. You're the moderator, you should be discouraging mere contradition, not displaying it.

Oh, and in addition I will addreess your comment that, had the CIC won, we would be one step closer to Sharia in Canada, is hyperbole.

I beg to differ. Sharia law makes it illegal to insult the prophet. If Mark Steyn or Ezra Levant had lost their cases to the CIC, then it would be de facto illegal to make statements insulting to the prophet in Canada - which is exactly wat Sharia Law states. So indeed, we would have been one step closer to Sharia. How can you deny this simple fact without reaching for your all purpose bogeyman phrases like "Islamophobia" or "Hyperbole". Use facts, not catch phrases.

Edited April 18, 2010 by JerrySeinfeld

[Born Free]

erm... better check your math. Bush's deficits were measured in the billions; Obama's deficits are measured in the trillions.

And what problems are the expenditures intended to fix? The financial crisis that started under Bill Clinton or the wars that Obama is continuing?

Right. I forgot its all Clintons fault... The wars are over a trillion and counting.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Born Free

[JerrySeinfeld]

Right. I forgot its all Clintons fault... The wars are over a trillion and counting.

A trillion over 6-7 years. To defeat murderous regimes hellbent on destoying our way of life.

Obama spent a trillion last tuesday.

Edited April 18, 2010 by JerrySeinfeld

[Born Free]

A trillion over 6-7 years.

Obama spent a trillion last tuesday.

Nice try Jerry... A trillion and still counting...into that bottomless sink hole in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Check this out....Wall Street J.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Born Free

[JerrySeinfeld]

Nice try Jerry... A trillion and still counting...into that bottomless sink hole in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Check this out....Wall Street J.

You call a victorious war in Iraq a "bottomless sinkhole"? No wonder people don't trust the left with foreign policy.

TARP was Bush, dude - so yes a success. Thanks for the link.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael - when you reply to my case with one line drive by dismissal it makes it very difficult to have a debate. You as moderator should be aware of this.

I an not a moderator here.

Remember this is an online forum. People have lives, too. You can't compel someonee to reply to you on your clock if they have a dinner to attend or a show to get to or maybe a hockey game got their attention because the people online weren't giving them a decent enough mental workout.

Ok, those posts were from 2008. That must be some show.

First, I do absolutely assert that Islam is a political project. Look at the evidence. If you are a group that attempts not solely to worship, but to undermine the very articles of the charter of rights and freedoms by undermining freedom of expression, one of the fundamental tenets off democracy, then it extends beyong a mere religion.

So, religions aren`t allowed to make Charter Complaints ? Again, we have been through this before. All religions have a political aspect. You fail once again to show why the religion that you happen to be targeting is different than the others.

These are the facts. This is not misrepresentation. Michael, just because you throw around terms like "misrepresentation" or "Islamophobic" doesn't exclude you from having to debate facts.

So what happen to your assertion that they were insulted ? Now you add `personally victimized` which is already a change in the meaning by a degree. This is how you move the goalposts, as we have seen in the past.

You start out with hyperbole, then gradually move the goalposts until you leave the thread for your 2 year dinner-and-a-show.

Here, have a look at this clip from a similar case overseas in Britain/Denmark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_83AZD4TgoQ&feature=related

Any argument worth making can be made without a video.

If all you do is say "you're wrong" or "you're overrepresenting", then you're not debating, you're just contradicting. You're the moderator, you should be discouraging mere contradition, not displaying it.

No, I am not the moderator. I don`t know where you get that from.

Oh, and in addition I will addreess your comment that, had the CIC won, we would be one step closer to Sharia in Canada, is hyperbole.

I beg to differ. Sharia law makes it illegal to insult the prophet. If Mark Steyn or Ezra Levant had lost their cases to the CIC, then it would be de facto illegal to make statements insulting to the prophet in Canada - which is exactly wat Sharia Law states. So indeed, we would have been one step closer to Sharia. How can you deny this simple fact without reaching for your all purpose bogeyman phrases like "Islamophobia" or "Hyperbole". Use facts, not catch phrases.

So it`s a simple fact that if Steyn had lost the case it would be illegal to insult Islam in Canada ?

Simply ridiculous.

[justme]

Right. I forgot its all Clintons fault... The wars are over a trillion and counting.

Here's something for you to chew on: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid

Lawrence Summers, who was Treasury secretary under Bill Clinton, pushed for deregulation such as repealing the Glass-Steagall Act that caused much of the mess today. Guess who Obama chose for director of the White House National Economic Council?

Now who is laughing?

[Born Free]

Here's something for you to chew on: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid

Lawrence Summers, who was Treasury secretary under Bill Clinton, pushed for deregulation such as repealing the Glass-Steagall Act that caused much of the mess today. Guess who Obama chose for director of the White House National Economic Council?

Now who is laughing?

Bush had 8 years to deal with it....instead he elected to start a war he cant win by spending a trillion plus to move a bunch of rocks around for almost a decade and accomplish absolutely nothing.

The Repubs clearly arent interested in financial reform so the band keeps playing the same old song in the house.

Oh well........

[bush_cheney2004]

Bush had 8 years to deal with it....instead he elected to start a war he cant win by spending a trillion plus to move a bunch of rocks around for almost a decade and accomplish absolutely nothing.

Here are some of those rocks.....nice pool by the new Baghdad embassy!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/112/291642779_2d5a621d0d.jpg

The Repubs clearly arent interested in financial reform so the band keeps playing the same old song in the house.

Oh well........

Must be a good song....you can't change it.

[Born Free]

Must be a good song....you can't change it.

I'm just singing your lyrics. One more thing...its a trillion and counting to move all that rubble but your tea and crumpets gang say you cant afford to deal with an overdue health care reform....idiots all...

Heres a couple of photos taken two blocks away from the one you used...by the way...I'm refering to Afghanistan..

Cheers,

http://blog.cleveland.com/world_impact/2008/12/large_School-Bombing-Dec28-08-Afghanistan_Meye.jpg

http://www.outlookindia.com/images/afghanistan_bombing_20080721.jpg

Edited April 18, 2010 by Born Free