Guergis Resigns from Cabinet - RCMP Investigation into Alleged Miscond

[jbg]

Well perhaps you should stop being a troll and start acting the part for a change...

Maybe you should think for a moment before hitting the "add reply" button.

[ToadBrother]

Oh God! here we go again....

Each side, when feeling a pounding from the press, will accuse the press of being politically aligned with the other side. I recall Liberals during the early days of the HRDC and Adscam scandals accusing right-wing media outlets of being on a witch hunt.

There's an old saying, and I wish I could remember who said it, that goes something like "Politicians who complain about the press are like captains who complain about the sea."

[ToadBrother]

Maybe you should think for a moment before hitting the "add reply" button.

Surely there are enough journalists out there to cover both. I'm sure the media outlets are thanking whatever gods are responsible for political excesses and ineptitude for this glut of things to write about, and the editorialists are thanking their own dark, foul gods for the plenty that is raining down upon them, allowing them to wring their hands in joy.

[Born Free]

Maybe you should think for a moment before hitting the "add reply" button.

One need not do that when dealing with your posts....

[Born Free]

Surely there are enough journalists out there to cover both. I'm sure the media outlets are thanking whatever gods are responsible for political excesses and ineptitude for this glut of things to write about, and the editorialists are thanking their own dark, foul gods for the plenty that is raining down upon them, allowing them to wring their hands in joy.

This is the best stuff since the Mulroney Inquiry. In Nixonian fashion one could say ... The media doesnt have him to kick around anymore....

[capricorn]

The media doesnt have him to kick around anymore....

You mean Karlheinz Schreiber isn't coming back?

[ToadBrother]

This is the best stuff since the Mulroney Inquiry. In Nixonian fashion one could say ... The media doesnt have him to kick around anymore....

Maybe it's sort of like an infrastructure program for the news media! The papers need saving, so the politicians go all out to give them the necessary fodder. All we need is some juicy sex scandal. It has to be somewhat improbable, but yet still sufficiently salacious to titillate the folks at home. I mean, that would be the perfect storm for the press.

Edited April 15, 2010 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

You mean Karlheinz Schreiber isn't coming back?

Ug, that was a smelly old scandal. That was like finding your older brother's raunchy P.E. running shoes, lighting them on fire and running around the house shouting "Look what I found! Pay attention to me!"

[Wild Bill]

Reform could not form a majority government, and worse, was simply guaranteeing Chretien constant majorities, despite what ought to have been a fatal cancer in Quebec called the Bloc Quebecois. Old Reformers like to tell fanciful stories about how they were one election away from taking Ontario, but the truth is they weren't.

The harsh reality is that most Canadians are centrists, not right wingers, and Reform was too firmly seated on the right side of things. Rightly or wrongly it was tarred by the social extremists, particular in Alberta, but cropping up everywhere.

Harper is very much a Prime Minister in the Trudeau-Mulroney-Chretien mould, as I said in another post. He's autocratic, arrogant, willing to sacrifice just about anything in the obtaining and maintenance of power. This is the kind of guy who gets to be PM, not idealists like Manning.

You're not wrong, TB. It's just that the story is a bit more complicated than that!

Yes, Reform couldn't shake the smear campaigns. Yes, the Chretien style was successful and therefore a good model for Harper. I agree that we weren't "one election from taking Ontario". I figure more like 3, or at least 10 years.

Still, all that aside, it can't be denied that Reform came from nowhere and in less than a decade commanded over 60 seats, took several MILLION of the popular vote, reduced the PCs to a piddling rump and forever changed popular expectations of parties in Ottawa. It introduced the ideas of Senate reform and populism, which are slowly being debated and considered today, albeit with tiny steps like Harper's intentions.

The NDP would have given their left nut and a sack of diamonds to have had that kind of success! So would the Greens, for that matter.

None of what you said changes the fact that it's likely a good chunk of those millions of ex-Reform voters still feel as they did before. They likely are NOT overly happy with Harper! What's more, they are DEFINITELY NOT all social conservatives! They never were! Guys like Randy White and Stockwell "Barney the Dinosaur" Day were minor anomalies, not representative at all of the majority of the party membership. This fact is what really pissed off the left! When you paint them as American style "bubbas" it's easy to dismiss them. When they are just ordinary Canadians they are a much more formidable political opponent.

My point is that they're still out there, as an untapped electoral demographic. I am really surprised that Harper takes them so obviously for granted and that no one else has made an appeal to them. Harper keeps their support by the same tactic that Mulroney and Clark used all those years ago, by making sure those voters had no other choice! Any salesman knows that restricting customer choices is a very dangerous marketing tactic. Customers aren't stupid and just get more and more angry and frustrated. They will begin to resent having to accept your choices and if someday someone offers a more palatable alternative they will be GONE!

Manning proved this by the very success of the Reform Party. You can choose to focus on their mistakes but that doesn't negate their successes.

The basic factors are still there.

[Moonlight Graham]

Guergis's troubles are a shame because she's the hottest female Canadian politican i remember ever seeing, and it was enjoyable watching her sit behind Harper during Question Period.

Farewell hottie

[Topaz]

Guergis's troubles are a shame because she's the hottest female Canadian politican i remember ever seeing, and it was enjoyable watching her sit behind Harper during Question Period.

Farewell hottie

Just think if the PI hadn't come forward, she still be sitting there and Jaffer would still be using her e-mail, car and office.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Harper isn't dumb enough to lay his junk on a table and hand a hammer to his political opposition? Keep in mind that the ex minister was either fired or resigned their position over allegations now in the process of being investigated by the RCMP. Even Harper considered the issues to be of a serious enough nature to walk into a political fire storm, he did it to cover his own behind. There was little else he could do.

The person in question has a spouse with issues, and as a matter of fact, issues of their own. Not the kind of person to be placed in a position of responsibility. In any case this could well be the next nail in the coffin of bad judgment that Harper has been collecting. I believe he knows that the citizens carry the hammer, and I would expect him to act accordingly over the next days and weeks to come.

[wyly]

Guergis's troubles are a shame because she's the hottest female Canadian politican i remember ever seeing, and it was enjoyable watching her sit behind Harper during Question Period.

Farewell hottie

hottie???? ....you need to get out more..

[Muddy]

Whatever floats yer boat. I abandoned the PCs because of Mulroney, and of course, as soon as an alternative presented itself I supported them. I never even considered the PCs any kind of alterantive thereafter.

I believe that your reasons for joining Reform was the main reason for it`s success.

The PC Party abandoned conservative values completely that only the Progressive meant anything.

I too joined the Reform because I was homeless politically. I enjoyed being part of the policy decisions. I went to every assembly . It really was unique and different way of being part of the political process. We were in too big a hurry after we did not have the break through in Ontario in the 97 election. I was partly responsible for I went along with these changes and promoted the UA. We should have stayed the course and buried the PC Party completely. We made a major mistake with the United Alternative,that became the Canadian Alliance then morphed into the PC Party once again. Reform was becoming a brand name.

I am now homeless once again. But gosh the Reform was great while it lasted. Damn shame we were in too big a hurry.

[M.Dancer]

Guergis's troubles are a shame because she's the hottest female Canadian politican i remember ever seeing, and it was enjoyable watching her sit behind Harper during Question Period.

Farewell hottie

Ruby had her beat by a long shot. She was even selected by a knowledgeable magazine as one of the hottest politicians in the world. Heck, A 1988 vintage Barbara McDougal has her beat....

[Argus]

Says you....

Says history... you know, that class others took while you were taking shop.

[Argus]

Like most hypocrits are want to do, you villify the left as a matter of habit while choosing to pretend that the right has no track record with respect to its choosing to occasionally take the low ground.

Like most people with little education you have a very difficult time understanding the written word and like most ideologues you tend to put your own spin on what you do understand.

In short - I never said or pretended or even hinted any such thing.

[Argus]

Oh God! here we go again....

Journalism, as a profession, is the destination of choice only for the upper middle class, ie, the sons and daughters of the comfortable, with few fears or worries about money or making ends meet or finding jobs. They're people who have rarely, if ever, felt any financial insecurity. I've taken some writing courses where many in the class were journalism students and while there might have been a poor one here and there I certainly never met them. People who grow up with financial worries take courses which they feel will be most likely to lead to a high percentage chance of finding quick and secure jobs. People without such concerns - whose education is being paid for by mommy and daddy - take whatever strikes their fancy.

And journalims schools are of a kind. They take these soft, comfortable children of the upper middle classes and imbue them with the modern journalists credo that they are crusaders for the righeous, fighting the "man", fighting against big corporations (who are inevitably evil), fighting for the little guy, investigating money grubbing rich folk, corrupt politicos etc. The whole atmosphere is all reminisant of sixties peace demo organizers.

A certain smugness sets in by about 3rd year, an unjustifed feeling of cynical moral superiority to those presumed to be their future antagonists - ie, conservative politicians (liberal politicians are always on the side of the little guy, remember) and business - and anyone supporting them. By fourth year you recognize that your mission in life is to expose the hardship of the poor and downtrodden, and the way in which unfeeling government and cruel corporations abuse them. Most young journalists are actually more NDPish than Liberal, but as they get older, and start paying taxes, their attitudes adjust accordingly.

[Argus]

Each side, when feeling a pounding from the press, will accuse the press of being politically aligned with the other side. I recall Liberals during the early days of the HRDC and Adscam scandals accusing right-wing media outlets of being on a witch hunt.

There's an old saying, and I wish I could remember who said it, that goes something like "Politicians who complain about the press are like captains who complain about the sea."

Right wing media outlets? How many media outlets in this country are against gay rights, just to start, just because it's such a hot button issue? You know, the Sun chain has always been the most villified, by left wingers, as a purported right wing 'rag' and it was among the first major corporations in canada to give full and equal rights and benefits to gays, including marriage leave, spousal benefits and pension rights. There really are no right wing media outlets in Canada. At best, you have some middle of the road organiztions which include a few right of centre reporters or columnists.

[jbg]

You're not wrong, TB. It's just that the story is a bit more complicated than that!

Yes, Reform couldn't shake the smear campaigns. Yes, the Chretien style was successful and therefore a good model for Harper. I agree that we weren't "one election from taking Ontario". I figure more like 3, or at least 10 years.

Still, all that aside, it can't be denied that Reform came from nowhere and in less than a decade commanded over 60 seats, took several MILLION of the popular vote, reduced the PCs to a piddling rump and forever changed popular expectations of parties in Ottawa. It introduced the ideas of Senate reform and populism, which are slowly being debated and considered today, albeit with tiny steps like Harper's intentions.

*************

My point is that they're still out there, as an untapped electoral demographic. I am really surprised that Harper takes them so obviously for granted and that no one else has made an appeal to them. Harper keeps their support by the same tactic that Mulroney and Clark used all those years ago, by making sure those voters had no other choice! Any salesman knows that restricting customer choices is a very dangerous marketing tactic. Customers aren't stupid and just get more and more angry and frustrated. They will begin to resent having to accept your choices and if someday someone offers a more palatable alternative they will be GONE!

******************

The basic factors are still there.

I believe that your reasons for joining Reform was the main reason for it`s success.

The PC Party abandoned conservative values completely that only the Progressive meant anything.

I too joined the Reform because I was homeless politically. I enjoyed being part of the policy decisions. I went to every assembly . It really was unique and different way of being part of the political process. We were in too big a hurry after we did not have the break through in Ontario in the 97 election. I was partly responsible for I went along with these changes and promoted the UA. We should have stayed the course and buried the PC Party completely. We made a major mistake with the United Alternative,that became the Canadian Alliance then morphed into the PC Party once again. Reform was becoming a brand name.

I am now homeless once again. But gosh the Reform was great while it lasted. Damn shame we were in too big a hurry.

I've met one of you and respect both of you.

Your ideals are great. Even in the far more grassroots-conservative friendly U.S. the G.O.P. has had to mix their message in order to expand beyond the Plains states and the Deep South (not even all of the old Confederacy). Reagan was able to move the goalposts to the right. But honestly, having watched the process in my country, it is not an overnight affair. In the U.S. Reagan became electable only after a "perfect storm" of foreign policy chaos (read, Iran hostage, Afghanistan, Olympic boycott) and economic chaos (12% inflation, 15% mortgages, lines at petrol stations). Basically the same way Obama got elected (Lehman collapse, AIG, Merrill Lynch, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Bear Stearns implosiions and $1.10 per litre petrol). Unless something like those events happen ideology-based parties just don't get elected.

[Argus]

Just think if the PI hadn't come forward, she still be sitting there and Jaffer would still be using her e-mail, car and office.

and what a crisis for the country that would have been.

I doubt you'll find a single cabinet minister in the past fifty years who hasn't had their chauffeur driving their spouses around - if not their mistresses or boy lovers.

[ToadBrother]

Right wing media outlets? How many media outlets in this country are against gay rights, just to start, just because it's such a hot button issue? You know, the Sun chain has always been the most villified, by left wingers, as a purported right wing 'rag' and it was among the first major corporations in canada to give full and equal rights and benefits to gays, including marriage leave, spousal benefits and pension rights. There really are no right wing media outlets in Canada. At best, you have some middle of the road organiztions which include a few right of centre reporters or columnists.

Look, you can try to justify your bitterness that the media doesn't fawn over Harper any way you want, but the fact is that journalists love scandals, and it doesn't matter who is in power, they'll chase it down, and to my mind, sometimes blow it all out of proportion.

[Argus]

I believe that your reasons for joining Reform was the main reason for it`s success.

The PC Party abandoned conservative values completely that only the Progressive meant anything.

I too joined the Reform because I was homeless politically. I enjoyed being part of the policy decisions. I went to every assembly . It really was unique and different way of being part of the political process. We were in too big a hurry after we did not have the break through in Ontario in the 97 election. I was partly responsible for I went along with these changes and promoted the UA. We should have stayed the course and buried the PC Party completely. We made a major mistake with the United Alternative,that became the Canadian Alliance then morphed into the PC Party once again. Reform was becoming a brand name.

Reform was the only alternative, and sooner or later the reek of corruption and smugness about the Liberals would have gotten them turfed. Once in office for a while it's harder for the left to shout out their "extremist" nonsense and be believed.

I think Harper still does have small c conservative values, but he's a hard-core pragmatist and is a lot more interested in staying in power than risking anything by introducing anything which will give the opposition an issue. I think he's making a mistake, though. If you're not in power to do something then why are you in power? Oh don't get me wrong, he is accomplishing things, bit by bit, in small ways, appointing more conservative people into offices (though one could wonder just what he was thinking of when he put Jennifer Lynch into the CHRC is beyond me) but he seems too timid to do anything even mildly conservative, even though it would likely enjoy huge support across the country (like reigning in the HRCs) or looking for ways to reform health service delivery. In any event, I would hope he would improve if he ever gets a majority.

[Dave_ON]

You're not wrong, TB. It's just that the story is a bit more complicated than that!

Yes, Reform couldn't shake the smear campaigns. Yes, the Chretien style was successful and therefore a good model for Harper. I agree that we weren't "one election from taking Ontario". I figure more like 3, or at least 10 years.

Manning proved this by the very success of the Reform Party. You can choose to focus on their mistakes but that doesn't negate their successes.

The basic factors are still there.

I've always felt that the supporters of the reform movement were overly optimistic towards its prospects. I honestly feel that when they joined the PC party they had peaked and that they wouldn’t have made the inroads in SW Ontario that they needed to form a government. This is strictly based on my current perception of course as I was living in NB at the time this all took place. Suffice it to say out East the Reform party was largely viewed as a Western version of the BLOC party. In fact many folks out there called it the Western BLOC. This had nothing to do with "Liberal media smear campaigns" and everything to do with how the party handled itself. I remember when they were trying to run candidates out East, when they were asked about issues that concerned Maritimers, namely the struggling forestry, fishing and ship building industries they didn’t have a plan, or even the most remote idea of what was actually at issue. They talked a lot about senate reform and a lot of other “heifer dust” as my grandma put it, but nothing of substance that would resonate in the Atlantic Provinces.

This is what I perceive as the fundamental issue. They had a lot of ideas that were popular out west, that are either non issues or a tough sell to the east. This is ultimately why parties, the successful ones at least, drift to the centre eventually. It’s the only place you’re going to get sufficient support to form the government. It’s why the Conservatives and the Progressive’s joined forces to begin with. It’s why gradually the Conservative element was dropped. It’s why the Reform, became the Alliance party. The traces of reformism were quickly ousted and were maintained as window dressing only. The principles were long gone. Then a quick name change to CPC and suddenly almost instant success. They were finally within striking distance of the long sought majority, and all it took was sacrificing their very founding ideals, which apparently to them seemed a small price to pay.

I guess the question we have to ask is why does this cycle continue? The cycle of Conservatism flaring up and then tempering down and dying out. Why do all parties eventually end up in the “mushy middle” as many on this board are want to say? Why has the LPC enjoyed, until recently of course, a rather smooth and successful political history? Why has conservatism struggled through in comparison? It always makes me think of the old Latin maxim “in medio stat virtus” in the centre lies virtue. In a country as regionalized as Canada is, I think it’s the only ground you’ll ever be able to please most of the people most of the time.

[Molly]

White, straight, well-to-do, (nominally) Christian men, as a group, seem to have a real hate thing going for human rights commissions.

HRCs are quite a lot more popular among those who are brown, gay, poor, nonChristian or female. Funny how that works.