Catholic Sex Abuse Criticism = Anti-Semitism?

[BubberMiley]

Just as I wouldn't blame the enitre boards of education for sexually abusive teachers.

But you would blame "the Left" if someone threw a pie in another person's face.

[bloodyminded]

But you would blame "the Left" if someone threw a pie in another person's face.

Or if a right-wing polemicist chooses to cancel an event--that's "the left's" fault--entire--as well.

[Shady]

School boards do not routinely try to hide cases of sexual abuse.

Not routinely, but it has been done.

And people speaking at official events do not evoke anti-Semitism in the hope of silencing critics.

Actually, many do.

But you would blame "the Left" if someone threw a pie in another person's face.

Or if a right-wing polemicist chooses to cancel an event--that's "the left's" fault--entire--as well.

Certainly of the left. Since there isn't really a hierarchy to speak of.

[BubberMiley]

Not routinely, but it has been done.

What are you referring to?

[bloodyminded]

What are you referring to?

He's referring to School Boards hiding cases of sexual abuse.

[CANADIEN]

Actually, many do.

When was the last time a school board trustee or school offcials evoked anti-Semetism in response to criticism?

[BubberMiley]

I'm still unaware of a specific instance, but if a specific school board facilitated and purposely protected teachers who abused children, I don't think it's a stretch to condemn the whole board.

[CANADIEN]

Over the past few days, some Canadian bishops and priests have have condemned not only the abuse but also the over-up. To quote my own parish priest: "There is no place for child abusers, or cover-ups, or excuses".

That's what I want to hear from the higherst level of authority in the Church. Regreats and apologies to God, to the victims and to all the faithful not only for the child abuse, but also for the betrayal that occurred through denial and cover-up done for the sake of protecting the institution.

Instead, what we have heard from Rome is apologies for the abuse only. Not good enough. Nor is the past few days is in outrageous lashing out at the critics.

Nothing short from a full apology for the cover-up, a full disclosure by the Pope of what his involvement was or wasn't, and an non-equivocal commitment to full disclosure and cooperation with civil aithorities in future cases of abuse is acceptable.

[eyeball]

Oh, I don't blame all Catholics. I don't even blame all priests. Most certainly the large majority are decent men. But the Church itself, is hierarchy of authority, yes, that is to blame, and it must be made to pay, as any organization that caused so much harm must be made to pay. And if it is revealed that the Pope was responsible in his previous role, then he should be brought to justice just as surely as any corporate executive should be if they aid and abet malfeasance.

Do you disagree?

Shouldn't this also apply to countries or more specifically their governments? Their hierarchy of authority isn't that dis-similar so it stands to reason they should also be brought to justice if they aid, abet or commit malfeasance.

Considering how many countries constitutions also recognize the supremacy of God, and since the shoe fits...

[Shady]

I'm still unaware of a specific instance, but if a specific school board facilitated and purposely protected teachers who abused children, I don't think it's a stretch to condemn the whole board.

I do.

That's what I want to hear from the higherst level of authority in the Church. Regreats and apologies to God, to the victims and to all the faithful not only for the child abuse

There already has been. In particular from both the former Pope, and the present Pope. Yes, these are new allegations and instances of abuse. But they're still from the same time period of the previous ones. We're talking about 30 - 40 years ago.

Considering how many countries constitutions also recognize the supremacy of God, and since the shoe fits...

And considering how many of these priests are homosexual pedophiles (99.9%), shouldn't we also condemn homosexuality as well? I think we must.

[ToadBrother]

But I thought you already stated that Cardinal Ratzinger was directly responsible. And that there was evidence of his responsibility. Again I ask, where's your evidence?

That he was Arch-Bishop of Munich when a number of cases went through. It's not direct evidence of direct malfeasance, but at the very least it demonstrates incompetence.

And no, I wouldn't blame the entire hierarchy of the church. Just as I wouldn't blame the enitre boards of education for sexually abusive teachers.

I didn't say I'd blame the entire hierarchy. But somewhere along the line the Church in many countries made the decision their reputation was more important than obeying the law, and just as importantly doing what was morally right. In short, several key officials high up in the Church's hierarchy broke laws in several nations, and should be punished to the maximum extent of the law.

[eyeball]

And considering how many of these priests are homosexual pedophiles (99.9%), shouldn't we also condemn homosexuality as well? I think we must.

No. Amongst other things homosexuality is not an organization with a hierarchy of authority.

The Church on the other hand is emerging as the world's oldest biggest organized network of pedophiles the planet has ever seen.

[ToadBrother]

I'm still unaware of a specific instance, but if a specific school board facilitated and purposely protected teachers who abused children, I don't think it's a stretch to condemn the whole board.

No kidding. Even if board members didn't agree to the cover up, they would have stood by silently as it happened. The same happened here. And if we're going to accept that high-ranking Bishops whose responsibility it was to deal with these accusations can plead ignorance, then we've just ended any notion of institutional responsibility for anyone in a leadership position. It allows the "Kenneth Lay" defense.

[Shady]

No. Amongst other things homosexuality is not an organization with a hierarchy of authority.

The Church on the other hand is emerging as the world's oldest biggest organized network of pedophiles the planet has ever seen.

First, I'd say not so much organized as disorganized. And second, you mean homosexual pedophiles. The only other thing I'll point out is that studies have also pointed out that there are the same percentages of pedophiles in the church as there are in any other organization or grouping in regular everyday life.

However, as I've pointed out before. The church seems to have a bigger problem with homosexuals. Homosexuals who probably haven't come to grips with their own sexuality, who seek some sort of comfort or "cure" within the church. When we all know you're born that way, there is no such thing as a "cure."

[BubberMiley]

The only other thing I'll point out is that studies have also pointed out that there are the same percentages of pedophiles in the church as there are in any other organization or grouping in regular everyday life.

Which studies pointed this out?

[Bonam]

The Church is truly demonstrating its despicable ways with these latest developments. Ridiculous allegations comparing the criticism the Church faces to antisemitism, denouncement of the whole issue as "idle gossip", and now silence from the Pope. These are all signs that this ancient and evil organization, responsible for so many hideous atrocities throughout history, is once again showing its true colors.

One can only take comfort in hoping that with the exposure of the way that the Church shelters perverse monsters who derive their vile pleasures from defiling innocent children, perhaps the world will at last see this conclave of miscreants for what it truly is, and it will lose the remaining vestiges of its ill begotten power. This house of evil must be overturned; religion's ancient grip over humanity, which has allowed it to torment so many souls, must at last be broken.

[Shady]

Which studies pointed this out?

All kinds. It just goes to show how ignorant you and other posters are regarding this whole subject. In fact, doctors and teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children. But nobody ever talks about that. Because it isn't a way to bash the Catholic Church. You and other anti-Catholic bigots love it when these priest scandals arise. Because it allows you to mask your real bigotry with a legitimate issue.

[ToadBrother]

All kinds. It just goes to show how ignorant you and other posters are regarding this whole subject. In fact, doctors and teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children. But nobody ever talks about that. Because it isn't a way to bash the Catholic Church. You and other anti-Catholic bigots love it when these priest scandals arise. Because it allows you to mask your real bigotry with a legitimate issue.

If you can show the same organizational attempts to hide pedophiles among either Medical Associations or teachers unions, then do so. Otherwise there is no comparison.

[CANADIEN]

There already has been. In particular from both the former Pope, and the present Pope. Yes, these are new allegations and instances of abuse. But they're still from the same time period of the previous ones. We're talking about 30 - 40 years ago.

Nice of you not to address the rest of my sentence - the fact that by far and large there has been admission of and repentence for the cover-up.

[CANADIEN]

The Church is truly demonstrating its despicable ways with these latest developments. Ridiculous allegations comparing the criticism the Church faces to antisemitism, denouncement of the whole issue as "idle gossip", and now silence from the Pope. These are all signs that this ancient and evil organization, responsible for so many hideous atrocities throughout history, is once again showing its true colors.

One can only take comfort in hoping that with the exposure of the way that the Church shelters perverse monsters who derive their vile pleasures from defiling innocent children, perhaps the world will at last see this conclave of miscreants for what it truly is, and it will lose the remaining vestiges of its ill begotten power. This house of evil must be overturned; religion's ancient grip over humanity, which has allowed it to torment so many souls, must at last be broken.

The problem with equating crtics of the scandal with hatred for the Chruch is that once in a while you can find people who fit the stereotype to a cue - you for example.

Unfortunately for you, the Church will survive this. Not without pains and a clean-up of attitudes, but it will survive long after your pathetic use of the suffering of children to nourish your own hatred has been forgotten.

[Bonam]

The problem with equating crtics of the scandal with hatred for the Chruch is that once in a while you can find people who fit the stereotype to a cue - you for example.

Unfortunately for you, the Church will survive this. Not without pains and a clean-up of attitudes, but it will survive long after your pathetic use of the suffering of children to nourish your own hatred has been forgotten.

You would dare to accuse me of hatred when it is the Church whose loathsome practices have condemned millions to death? From forced conversions to inquisitions to book burnings to the murder of intellectuals to crusades to pogroms and now to the molestation of children, it is the Church that has repeatedly demonstrated a hatred of humanity itself. In their dogmatic service of a non-existent entity, the worshipers of the altar of evil have condoned the most terrible of deeds. The priests of darkness ever stoke the fires of the inferno that has burnt to ashes the hopes and dreams of humankind throughout the ages. And yet you cheer for the continuation of such a twisted institution, hoping instead for the memory of its critics to wither away in the sands of time and be forgotten. I say the line must be drawn here! No more!

Edited April 5, 2010 by Bonam

[bloodyminded]

And considering how many of these priests are homosexual pedophiles (99.9%), shouldn't we also condemn homosexuality as well? I think we must.

No. We condemn pedophiles, not homosexuals. Homosexuals are not a hierarchical organization with a shared responsibility for particular crimes.

And pedophiles are pedophiles. Most pedophiles who molest boys (and girls) live otherwise heterosexual lives.

[bloodyminded]

The Church is truly demonstrating its despicable ways with these latest developments. Ridiculous allegations comparing the criticism the Church faces to antisemitism, denouncement of the whole issue as "idle gossip", and now silence from the Pope. These are all signs that this ancient and evil organization, responsible for so many hideous atrocities throughout history, is once again showing its true colors.

One can only take comfort in hoping that with the exposure of the way that the Church shelters perverse monsters who derive their vile pleasures from defiling innocent children, perhaps the world will at last see this conclave of miscreants for what it truly is, and it will lose the remaining vestiges of its ill begotten power. This house of evil must be overturned; religion's ancient grip over humanity, which has allowed it to torment so many souls, must at last be broken.

Respectfully, I think this Hitchensian rant goes way too far.

And I'm an atheist!

[CANADIEN]

You would dare to accuse me of hatred

No need. Your own words did it for you.

BTW, I do KNOW that the Church will survive even the latest of the harm brought to it by many of its own members. And I hope that it will learn from this mistake.

And I most certainly do not wish for the memory of what was done to be erased, for only memory will nesure it does not happen again. I most definitely want for the voices of those who called for the Church to mend its ays to be remembered. What will hopefully be forgooten will be the voices of those who shamelessly used the pain of suffering of the victims as fuel for their own hatred.

[BubberMiley]

Can you relieve my ignorance by providing some citations?

I only ask because I know whenever you don't provide sources (and often even when you do), you're usually lying.

Edited April 5, 2010 by BubberMiley