The GST

[Mr.Canada]

I was just starting high school at he time(1989) but wasn't the GST initially put in place as a temporary measure to combat the deficit at the time that was incurred due to the last recession we had?

After which the GST was to be rescinded.

If so why has government instead of dedicating all that money to the national debt chosen to use it to increase spending acrosss the board?

I could be wrong but I could've swore I heard PM Mulroney say something like this.

At any rate spending is way out of control and has been for decades, since Trudeau. Why don't we slash spending to pre PET levels per capita. We don't need all of these government run services, it's a waste of money.

If all of these services for immigrants give such a return then advocacy groups should have no problems raising the money for these programs themselves. I'm sick of paying higher taxes each year, we just mailed the cheque so I'm irritated atm.

Every year our taxes go up and every year services for Canadians who were born here seem to get worse funding while services for immigrants seem to get better funding. There's a problem with this formula.

[madmax]

I was just starting high school at he time(1989) but wasn't the GST initially put in place as a temporary measure to combat the deficit at the time that was incurred due to the last recession we had?

The GST was proposed by the Conservative government in 1989. That was prior to any recession. The GST came into effect in 1991. One of the first Provincial governments to embrace it was the Conservative government of Grant Devine to harmonize it. The GST has nothing to do with recessions, but more to do with the idealogy that consumers and endusers should pay.

After which the GST was to be rescinded.

Absolutely NOT!!! This is the Conservative tax that is reinforced by each successive conservative government. The Liberals also believe in this method of taxation. It's intent was NEVER to be rescinded.

The only Party with a 20 year track record of being against the GST/HST is the NDP.

Nothing has changed. Just like the LPC/CPC and BQ all supported the expansion of hte HST and provided the Over $7BIllION in spending to the Provinces in order to ensure its success.

That is a MASSIVE COMMITTMENT TO A TAX!!!

A government in HUGE DEBT is SPENDING $7Billion to SUPPORT THIS TAX!.

If so why has government instead of dedicating all that money to the national debt chosen to use it to increase spending acrosss the board?

Its tax revenue. You can put it against the debt, the deficit, to tax cuts for corporations, and to services. IF you read carefully the Economic Action plan you will see that decreasing government revenues in the forms of tax cuts for corporations is to be balanced off by increased taxes elsewhere. However, short of pie in the sky predictions, we are going to have this massive Mulroney style of deficits for at least a decade.

The Conservatives have spent monies like drunken sailors on many pet projects, few of which are actually economic stimulus packages, but make for great photo opps and gets an active base to help campaign for their next election campaign.

This government has not shown fiscal competence since taking power in 2006.

Regardless, government is about who pays and what the monies are spent on. The intent is to get the general public to pay and have special pet projects and freebies to aid in globalization. These are the beliefs of the Liberals and Conservatives. When cuts are spoken, it is rarely to the projects of the wealthy, but often, if the Liberals are an example, to HealthCare, reductions in transfers and the military.

The war in Afghanistan is VERY EXPENSIVE!!! Shall we cut that monies needed to pay down the debt?

This government is in record deficit territory and because they are Conservative, no one is calling them on it. Perfect spin and teflon protection.

I could be wrong but I could've swore I heard PM Mulroney say something like this.

If you did hear him say this you will have to accept the credibility of the source.

At any rate spending is way out of control and has been for decades, since Trudeau. Why don't we slash spending to pre PET levels per capita. We don't need all of these government run services, it's a waste of money.

1) Trudeaus government spent like drunken sailors.

2) Mulroneys Government spent like drunken sailors.

3) Harpers government spent like drunken sailors.

4) Chretians government cut services that we required but continued to spend on the money people while balancing the books on the backs of the Province and the Government services that we pay taxes for.

5) We need government services. To think not is delusional.

If all of these services for immigrants give such a return then advocacy groups should have no problems raising the money for these programs themselves. I'm sick of paying higher taxes each year, we just mailed the cheque so I'm irritated atm.

Don't worry, there is less desire to immigrate to this country. Few are interested in joining the unemployment lines as the jobs are being transfered to their countries of origin. I am seeing a trend where many immigrants of 20 to 30 years are going back home, not to retire but to work. Including Americans who are also Immigrants!!!

Every year our taxes go up and every year services for Canadians who were born here seem to get worse funding while services for immigrants seem to get better funding. There's a problem with this formula.

Come on!!! Figure it out. You want cuts to services!!! You vote Conservative!!! You are getting everything you asked for.

Your taxes will continue to go up until you find yourself in elite circles. If you are going to remain middle class or upper middle class prepare to take it on the chin. It's what you support!!!

What truly worries me is not your posts but pinning down your age.

You were in highschool in 89? During the movement that started to cut services and raise taxes to pay down the debt!!! The move to Free trade, low skilled jobs and open markets for cheaper produced consumer good sold at the same market rates.

Of course we are slipping. But you attack what is actually good for you.

Its truly sad to read your posts. I have alway thought you were a 60 year old retired person.

It doesn't seem to me like you have lived. No wonder you are bitter. You will not find satisfaction by constantly drooling over the Conservative party.

The GST is here to stay. The HST is even worse if you are a middle lower class consumer.

Conservative and Liberal Economists argue its good medicine for us.

Enjoy your Buckleys.

Edited March 29, 2010 by madmax

[Wilber]

The GST replaced the manufacturers sales tax which was a hidden tax levied on everything manufactured in Canada. It also made a whole bunch of things taxable that were not before. The HST will do the same thing. I think inflation sats for the second half of the year in BC will be higher than the rest of the country due to the introduction of the HST and a hike in the carbon tax, both of which take place on July 1. Happy Canada Day.

[Moonbox]

madmax you've basically explained everything that's wrong with politics...everywhere. From the sound of things it seemed like you were presenting the NDP as a meaningful alternative...but I'm sure that couldn't have been right...

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Alternatives? There are many, yet of viable options there is but one.

[Mr.Canada]

What truly worries me is not your posts but pinning down your age.

You were in highschool in 89? During the movement that started to cut services and raise taxes to pay down the debt!!! The move to Free trade, low skilled jobs and open markets for cheaper produced consumer good sold at the same market rates.

Of course we are slipping. But you attack what is actually good for you.

Its truly sad to read your posts. I have alway thought you were a 60 year old retired person.

It doesn't seem to me like you have lived.

Taxes are entirely too high in this country across the board. I don't need all these services and if they're truly inportant then they should be getting some corporate funding as well. We need more joint partnerships between public and private monies for services.

Cuts to corporate taxes create jobs, end of story. If we did what the NDP wanted, raise corporate taxes, companies would leave Canada and would hire less making Canada less attractive option for setting up shop. Canada needs to attract business not push it away.

I'm 35. I've said this before here on these boards.

At any rate I wasn't really making any statments just trying to inquire about the GST. I thought I heard PM Mulroney say the things I mentioned but I could be wrong. No big deal and no need to have a huge meltdown and attack me personally. The thread for that is in my sig. Thanks.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Moonbox]

Alternatives? There are many, yet of viable options there is but one.

I can't think of one. Could you please clarify?

[madmax]

Taxes are entirely too high in this country across the board. I don't need all these services

Maybe you have a point. Somehow I paid for your birth. Truly a service you didn't need. And your schooling, and you post secondary.

and if they're truly inportant then they should be getting some corporate funding as well.

That's called corporate taxes. It means corporations take a stake in the community and community services. Otherwise the corporations have few ties to the country. Its get in and get out. But you undermine your argument for corporate funding below.

We need more joint partnerships between public and private monies for services.

Public monies come from taxation. Private monies come from donations. Partnerships result in private sector taking huge profits at the expense of the tax payers. Such as the 407ETR, P3 Hospitals, and Private Auto Insurance which is a cash cow where people are forced to pay.

Cuts to corporate taxes create jobs, end of story.

No, its the end of a fairy tale!!!

A myth that is supported by bean counters in the Liberal Party and some global neoliberal economists who have been running the show for the last 15 years.

Lower taxes have SFA to do with job creation. 500,000 jobs were lost in Ontario and the corporate execs laugh on their blackberries while they enjoy the goodtimes while others suffer.

Tax savings that we give to US corporations are TAXED in the US. Each dollar we don't tax for to support our roads and infrastructure that corporations benefit from the most, is sent down to the US to pay for their roads etc.

Tax savings in Canada for corporations are spent in India and China and SOuth Korea and other asian countries to relocate our jobs their.

Tax Savings for BANKS do not create jobs.

While their is a school of thought that believe this nonsense and it has become mainstream, it isn't backed up by facts on the ground. Only by manipulators of stats.

If we did what the NDP wanted, raise corporate taxes,

A corporate tax freeze that will lower the federal deficit is fiscally responsible.

companies would leave Canada and would hire less making Canada less attractive option for setting up shop. Canada needs to attract business not push it away.

LOL.

Do you live in a bubble? With some the lowest taxation rates, we are losing hundreds of thousands of jobs.

It aint the taxes. Its because I can get a CNC operator, an Engineer, and accountant all for under $2500 a month in Asian Countries including India, where the level of skilled people is high.

What creates jobs is INVESTMENT!!! No tax cuts are tied to investments. Investments in technology and equipment are done overseas.

New technologies in Canada and new equipment is sent offshore. Its part of my job to source people for overseas work.

I'm 35. I've said this before here on these boards.

You appear twice your age..

At any rate I wasn't really making any statments just trying to inquire about the GST. I thought I heard PM Mulroney say the things I mentioned but I could be wrong. No big deal and no need to have a huge meltdown and attack me personally. The thread for that is in my sig. Thanks.

The GST and its bigger tax cousin the HST are Conservative gifts to Canadian Consumers so your corporations can pay less in taxes and erm.... "hire more people"

Enjoy your tax burden. Its good for you.

[madmax]

madmax you've basically explained everything that's wrong with politics...everywhere. From the sound of things it seemed like you were presenting the NDP as a meaningful alternative

There have been two schools of thought since before confederation. The Free Traders and the Closed Economy protectionists. The Free traders and globalists dominated from the 1500s till the mid 1800s in Canada. We were a resource economy then. In the mid 1800s the move to create more then a resource economy was forming. The Conservatives were the leaders of this movement. It made no Economic sense on a global scale. But by 1867 the visions of the National Policy took root. Always opposed by the Liberals in their desire for Free trade and reciprocity with the US.

The National Policy worked, regardless of its inherant flaws. It does affect global economy equality. So, yes, we no longer shipped our timber, steel, furs, and fish to foreign countries for processing, but did it here. And back then the Global trade was no less important then it is today. People that think otherwise pay no heed to history or the travels of Marco Polo and the caravans of the past let alone the present.

The CCF, NDP and Social Credit, the Progressives, Farmers parties etc, all supported the Origins and policies of the Conservative National policy.

It worked, it created jobs and national and local economies.

IT built railnetworks when the private sector couldn't or wouldn't because it made no shortterm economic sense. Same goes for Canals etc. The desire to move goods remained and remains, but it included FINISHED goods, not just resources.

Corporations ALWAYS opposed this as little has changed from the past. All monies generated came from outside of Canada in most industry, while a few like the McCains, the Harris's and some others were Canadian with Canadian funds, this wasn't normally the case. IT was British and American Old money.

Corporations then as now, wanted to source resources from Canada and fabricate in other countries.

In the years between 1984 and 1988 Brian Mulroney had an ephiphany. Or more importantly, the people who worked on the Free Trade deal structure (developed in the 70s under trudeau and some guy name JOHN TURNER) on the business side, got Mulroneys ear and he went with them. That switch changed the nature of the Canadian Economy, just as did Sir John A MacDonalds National Policy.

The LIberal ability to continue with Free Trade Expansion occured with NAFTA and now continues with the Harper Conservatives with Trade deals with Columbia, Peru, South Korea, etc.

Great we can get an electric toaster for $2, and I can get a new pair of Levis Jeans every two months for under $20. But the Jeans wear out fast, and the toaster barely lasts a year.

We no longer have Bauer Canadian Owned, and no longer is anything made in Canada.

THings that would be unheard of since the late 50s, LEAD PAINT ON STICKS!!!! is back courtesy of Bauer China.

But labour costs are lower, standards are lower, and consumers at Walmart and all other department stores have no idea how many people died trying to make a widget for $.50 less.

In the meantime, short of quality shortcomings, if a product is sound, it does NOT sell for less in Canada. THat is driven by demand.

As more people lose their steady employment that demand drops and perhaps those working may get a better deal. But then the supply will be cut to raise the price. That is basic manufacturing 101.

...but I'm sure that couldn't have been right...

Certain aspects of the NDP fiscal policy are very sound. Based on Decades of sound management in PRovincial Governments. Usually driven by pressures to provide services, remain fiscally responsible and keep jobs. Other provinces of other political stripes have also done the same.

Federally, this is not a new argument. The Desire of Global trade without tariffs etc has been ongoing for over hundreds of years.

Wars have been fought over tariffs as countries try to protect their local and national interests.

Global trade is in the interest of corporations. It works in theory.

Of course, tearing up your peach and pear trees in a region that grows them and sold them locally and internationally, because a canning plant can be operated in Turkey cheaper, means we receive a different quality of product and different origin of peaches and pears.

And we lose the canning jobs and the farmers move onto to.... another crop of course.

Notice the numbers getting convicted of growing pot...

The GST is a mechanism to aid free trade. The tax revenue has to come from the consumer because the corporations are relocating.

Giving corporate tax cuts to Banks, (which are not subject to free trade and operate under protection laws) is wrong. They are protected and they should be paying taxes on those record billions in profits.

Resource based corporations Cannot MOVE. They should be paying their fair share of taxes, since they have shut down Canadian Production. They still make huge profits on the hewing and extractions.

If the "National Party" was still around, or the Canada Action Party had any teeth, these parties represented a similar view on trade and taxation.

Today, there is NO difference between Liberal and Conservative in regards to taxation and trade.

People accept the GST. IT killed retail for about 2 to 3 years.

The HST won't have the same immediate effect. It will impact hard over the longterm because of the items that are being taxed are necessities that previously weren't subject to such brutal government policy.

Taxes are a fact of life. Revenues are required.

Its just a matter of WHO is going to pay.

It's us.

[Moonbox]

Taxes are a fact of life. Revenues are required.

Its just a matter of WHO is going to pay.

It's us.

I read your whole post and I agree with lots of it but I have an issue with this point here.

Taxes and revenue are required, yes, but the question is how much is required and how much spending is just an outright waste of money, then there is the patronage and crap that goes along with it. I'm not saying the NDP's ideas are all bad, but there are a lot that make me cringe.

Free trade is a great idea, in principle, providing there is a level playing field. Trade with China, however, or Mexico etc, is probably doing more harm than good. You're right, I can get cheap jeans and buy more shit, but generally it's just shit I don't need and never use. My life hasn't been improved at all.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I read your whole post and I agree with lots of it but I have an issue with this point here.

Taxes and revenue are required, yes, but the question is how much is required and how much spending is just an outright waste of money, then there is the patronage and crap that goes along with it. I'm not saying the NDP's ideas are all bad, but there are a lot that make me cringe.

Free trade is a great idea, in principle, providing there is a level playing field. Trade with China, however, or Mexico etc, is probably doing more harm than good. You're right, I can get cheap jeans and buy more shit, but generally it's just shit I don't need and never use. My life hasn't been improved at all.

Well said!

[bjre]

( http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16101&view=findpost&p=528570 )

Just know that 91% of Canada's federal debt is used for pay private bank interest. I wonder if most of the GST is for that purpose.

[Moonbox]

( http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16101&view=findpost&p=528570 )

Just know that 91% of Canada's federal debt is used for pay private bank interest. I wonder if most of the GST is for that purpose.

bjre: Youtube not good source for get facts. Youtube be very unreliable and there lots made up stuff. I can post videos there. Doesn't mean true.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The GST transfered a business tax onto the individual. It replaced the Manufacturers Sales Tax, once you can see and understand the intent and direction of the effort you get the feeling that government does not serve the public interest.

[Dave_ON]

The GST transfered a business tax onto the individual. It replaced the Manufacturers Sales Tax, once you can see and understand the intent and direction of the effort you get the feeling that government does not serve the public interest.

As I understand it the manufacturers sales tax was passed on to the consumers anyway in the pricing of their products. The advantage of the GST is that at least now we know how much we're being taxed whereas before the tax was "hidden" in the price.

[madmax]

I read your whole post and I agree with lots of it

but I have an issue with this point here.

Taxes and revenue are required, yes, but the question is how much is required and how much spending is just an outright waste of money, then there is the patronage and crap that goes along with it. I'm not saying the NDP's ideas are all bad, but there are a lot that make me cringe.

We will just have to live with the fact that I agree with your comment above, but I might add there are alot of ideas from all political parties that make people cringe. The NDP doesn't have a stranglehold on ideas, but they do have good ideas then bad ideas, like any other party.

Free trade is a great idea, in principle, providing there is a level playing field. Trade with China, however, or Mexico etc, is probably doing more harm than good. You're right, I can get cheap jeans and buy more shit, but generally it's just shit I don't need and never use. My life hasn't been improved at all.

And we will have to agree on this too.

You are sounding like a New Democrat whether you know it or not. Not saying you would vote New Democrat, but that your comments are ones heard in general public circles. And much of the general public doesn't vote New Democrat even though the parties they vote for are either not listening or going in a completely opposite direction.

[Moonbox]

The NDP doesn't have a stranglehold on ideas, but they do have good ideas then bad ideas, like any other party.

You're right, which is why I view politics so cynically.

You are sounding like a New Democrat whether you know it or not. Not saying you would vote New Democrat, but that your comments are ones heard in general public circles. And much of the general public doesn't vote New Democrat even though the parties they vote for are either not listening or going in a completely opposite direction.

I don't really like sounding like anything to be honest. There are a lot of things I don't like about every party and I tend to retch every time I cast my ballot, but I do know (and I'm not expecting you or anyone to share my views) that I am not really a very strong advocate of social program spending. Things like healthcare etc are important but then I think our welfare and EI systems are completely broken and the NDP seem to champion the cause of making it more broken and easier to abuse. It makes it hard for me to even look their way.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Moonbox

[Handsome Rob]

I was just starting high school at he time(1989) but wasn't the GST initially put in place as a temporary measure to combat the deficit at the time that was incurred due to the last recession we had?

After which the GST was to be rescinded.

If so why has government instead of dedicating all that money to the national debt chosen to use it to increase spending acrosss the board?

I could be wrong but I could've swore I heard PM Mulroney say something like this.

Close. It was Herr Chretien's little red book.

At any rate spending is way out of control and has been for decades, since Trudeau. Why don't we slash spending to pre PET levels per capita. We don't need all of these government run services, it's a waste of money.

Whole heartedly agree.

If all of these services for immigrants give such a return then advocacy groups should have no problems raising the money for these programs themselves. I'm sick of paying higher taxes each year, we just mailed the cheque so I'm irritated atm.

Every year our taxes go up and every year services for Canadians who were born here seem to get worse funding while services for immigrants seem to get better funding. There's a problem with this formula.

You'd be surprised at what Immigrants have to contribute just to immigrate. How much it costs, how much money they have to raise and provide proof of to get dependents in.

I'd say the loudmouth types crying represent a very small minority, the majority are just trying to get by.

[August1991]

The GST replaced the manufacturers sales tax which was a hidden tax levied on everything manufactured in Canada. It also made a whole bunch of things taxable that were not before.

The Manufacturers Sales Tax (MST) dated from the 1920s and absurdly applied to certain Canadian produced goods but not imports or Canadian services. IOW, the MST hurt Canadians at the expense of helping foreigners. Everyone knowledgeable about the subject said that the MST was a terrible tax but successive federal (Liberal) governments lacked the political courage to change it. Mulroney replaced the MST with a sophisticated Value-Added Tax that is fair because of quarterly refunds but also efficient because it does not distort consumers decisions.

Taxes are entirely too high in this country across the board. I don't need all these services and if they're truly inportant then they should be getting some corporate funding as well. We need more joint partnerships between public and private monies for services.

Mr. Canada, taxes are not too high; government spending is too high. Never mistake the two. (Government regulation is also too extensive but that's a slightly different story.)

The GST and its bigger tax cousin the HST are Conservative gifts to Canadian Consumers so your corporations can pay less in taxes and erm.... "hire more people"..

Corporations do not pay taxes. Shareholders, employees or customers pay taxes. IOW, people pay taxes. Any tax burden must fall ultimately on an individual.

To my ear, to argue that corporations must pay more tax is just an ignorant argument that "someone else should pay for what I want". I put this into the generic folder: "Other people's money". A more honest argument would be: "Make the rich pay."

As I understand it the manufacturers sales tax was passed on to the consumers anyway in the pricing of their products. The advantage of the GST is that at least now we know how much we're being taxed whereas before the tax was "hidden" in the price.

True, the MST was hidden but that's not the point. It fell in bizarre ways (much as modern corporate taxes do).

In Europe, VAT is hidden in the retail price. (European VATs are around 25% or so. They largely replace income taxes since Europeans are notorious for not paying income taxes.)

In Canada, Mulroney/Wilson expressly wanted GST (our VAT) to be explicit when consumers buy items. The logic was that an explicit tax would be difficult to raise in the future. (I would love a similar structure to control government spending.)

----

I'm a great fan of the GST (or its provincial equivalent, the HST). So far, all but Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have accepted to use the GST/HST. In Quebec, the effective HST is collected by the Quebec government and the GST revenues forwarded to the federal government.

I would have preferred that Harper had promised to cut income taxes rather than the GST but I understand why he promised to cut the GST. In future elections, Harper can say that he promised to cut the GST - and he did. That kept promise will be worth at least 2 or 3 % points alone.

I note that Charest intends to increase the provincial cut of the HST in Quebec (PST) by the 2% that Harper vacated. I'm sure that Harper has suggested this to other premiers.

Last two points: 1. Bermuda has no income taxes but a 35% VAT. That makes alot of sense. 2. Japan's LDP lost its four decade hold on power because it introduced a VAT.

[eyeball]

I would have preferred that Harper had promised to cut income taxes rather than the GST but I understand why he promised to cut the GST. In future elections, Harper can say that he promised to cut the GST - and he did. That kept promise will be worth at least 2 or 3 % points alone.

I bet he lost as many or more points to people who can see through this charade from a mile away. At least I hope he did.

Last two points: 1. Bermuda has no income taxes but a 35% VAT. That makes alot of sense. 2. Japan's LDP lost its four decade hold on power because it introduced a VAT.

I prefer the Bermuda solution - taxing consumption encourages people to consume less which is better for the planet.

Japan's LDP introduced their VAT without a corresponding cut in income taxes? Morons.

Edited April 10, 2010 by eyeball