Moscow Metro Bombed

[ironstone]

My sympathy for the victims is somewhat tempered by how the Russians deal with other Muslim countries,Iran comes to mind.Here they are,handing over nuclear technology to a barbaric regime without any concern whatsoever for the consequences.Be careful when dealing with fanatics like this.

[nicky10013]

UBC

My field of study was more technical in nature.

Perhaps that's it. I went to U of T and I've known people to get 100% on assignments in science but I've never once heard of someone getting 100 in the arts and social sciences, nor has wikipedia ever been good enough. Guess it just depends on discipline.

[bloodyminded]

My sympathy for the victims is somewhat tempered by how the Russians deal with other Muslim countries,

I have lots of sympathy for the victims.

Unfortunately for the "I-hate-Muslims" narrative, this sympathy expands to the Chechnyen people too.

The Russians have treated the Chechynens far worse than the Chechnyens have treated the Russians. You can't even compare the two.

[Mr.Canada]

I have lots of sympathy for the victims.

Unfortunately for the "I-hate-Muslims" narrative, this sympathy expands to the Chechnyen people too.

The Russians have treated the Chechynens far worse than the Chechnyens have treated the Russians. You can't even compare the two.

So because of this innocent citizens deserve to be blown up on their way to work?

[August1991]

if it was my family that was exterminated I'm strapping a bomb to myself and looking for revenge...you have this assinine view that militia's go toe to toe with professional heavily armed military, go head first into the slaughter they will lose a suicide scenario, oh how very noble and unrealistic, there are rules of war they're covered in the Geneva Convention(heard of it?) which the Russians have torn up and thrown away and you expect civility from the Chechens ...the west has watched this genocide go on for years and have said nothing for fear of pissing of the Russians (but it's ok they're those filthy muslims )

Violence yes, but there is no genocide in Chechnya. The Russian State is protecting its territory. Chechens willing to accept that they are Russian citizens in a federal state largely face no problem. Tatarstan, for example, is a sovereign republic within the Russian federation. Chechnya has had this choice.

But wyly, you raise a broader question. Under what circumstances should anyone use violence, even horrific tactics, in defending their cause against an opponent? I don't know.

Is territorial integrity justification for horrific violence? The Russian federal State has offered terms to the Chechen Republic similar to the Tatar Republic. This amounts to autonomy while remaining part of the Russian Federation. (Rene Levesque asked for far less.) The US fought a bloody civil war on such a question - and Abraham Lincoln (now at least) is considered a great man. (Putin has not made the claim that Russia is liberating women from an Islamic yolk.) IOW, Russians (Yeltsin/Putin) have been willing to accomodate Chechens. It is Chechens that obtusely refuse to remain part of the Russia Federation, on very liberal terms.

----

Wyly, your question is still broader. The Allies bombed Dresden in February 1945. Americans dropped a nuclear bomb not once but twice in Japan in August 1945.

Ultimately, it is hard not to conclude that we are the right side and fortunately we have the power to do this.

Most if not all people today would say that the defeat of Hitler and Tojo was a good thing for human civilization. Similarly I suspect, most if not all civilized people think that the scourge of Wahabi Islam is better defeated.

Perhaps that's it. I went to U of T and I've known people to get 100% on assignments in science but I've never once heard of someone getting 100 in the arts and social sciences, nor has wikipedia ever been good enough. Guess it just depends on discipline.

I love such posts. They put life as it is truly lived in proper perspective. Edited April 4, 2010 by August1991

[bloodyminded]

So because of this innocent citizens deserve to be blown up on their way to work?

This is totally divorced from anything I said.

[Mr.Canada]

I have lots of sympathy for the victims.

Unfortunately for the "I-hate-Muslims" narrative, this sympathy expands to the Chechnyen people too.

The Russians have treated the Chechynens far worse than the Chechnyens have treated the Russians. You can't even compare the two.

So because of this innocent citizens deserve to be blown up on their way to work?

This is totally divorced from anything I said.

Seems to me that you are making apologies for the bombers and attacking the Russian people, blaming them for the bombings. The Russian Bear will never allow this to stand. He will drag them from the sewers and into Gods Light. He said so.

[bloodyminded]

Seems to me that you are making apologies for the bombers and attacking the Russian people, blaming them for the bombings.

It "seems to you" even though I never faintly hinted at any such thing.

I pointed out the incontestable fact that Russia has been extraordinarily brutal towards the Chechnyen people.

If anything, you are the one writing apologetics for terrible atrocities. You know, those unbelievable crimes against the Chechnyen people, that dwarf Chechnyen terrorism by comparison.

Edited April 4, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Mr.Canada]

It "seems to you" even though I never faintly hinted at any such thing.

I pointed out the incontestable fact that Russia has been extraordinarily brutal towards the Chechnyen people.

If anything, you are the one writing apologetics for terrible atrocities. You know, those unbelievable crimes against the Chechnyen people, that dwarf Chechnyen terrorism by comparison.

See, there it is again. You condoning or excusing the actions of the Muslim suicide bombers because their country was at war with Russia. There was a clip on youtube of a Chechnyen beheading a Russian soldier. War is hell, that's why they call it war. You know what you're doing bloodyminded, knock it off and be honest with the good people of MLW.

[bloodyminded]

See, there it is again. You condoning or excusing the actions of the Muslim suicide bombers because their country was at war with Russia. There was a clip on youtube of a Chechnyen beheading a Russian soldier. War is hell, that's why they call it war. You know what you're doing bloodyminded, knock it off and be honest with the good people of MLW.

You keep insisting I'm excusing the actions of terrorists. And yet I am condemning terrorism. All of it.

You only condemn it from one side--which means you do not condemn it.

And the Russians have behaved worse than the Chechnyens:

On February 5, 2000, Russian forces engaged in widespread killing, arson, rape and looting in Aldi. The victims included an eighty-two-year-old woman, and a one-year-old-boy with his twenty-nine-year-old mother, who was eight months pregnant. The 46-page report criticizes the failure of the Russian authorities to undertake a credible investigation into the massacre and provide adequate protection for witnesses.

Human Rights Watch previously documented the events in Aldi in a February 23 press release, but the new report documents in detail the killings of forty of the victims, along with six cases of rape, and the widespread arson and looting of civilian homes.

On February 5, 2000, Russian riot police and contract soldiers entered Aldi and went from house to house executing civilians. Some killings were accompanied by demands for money or jewelry, serving as a pretext for execution if the amount was insufficient. Others victims lacked identity papers. Several witnesses stated that the soldiers forcibly removed the victims' gold teeth or stole jewelry from corpses.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2000/06/01/russian-atrocities-chechnya-detailed

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63823-2002Jun28?language=printer

Edited April 4, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Mr.Canada]

You keep insisting I'm excusing the actions of terrorists. And yet I am condemning terrorism. All of it.

You only condemn it from one side--which means you do not condemn it.

And the Russians have behaved worse than the Chechnyens:

Their is always only two sides of anything. Right and wrong. Good and bad. White and black. Yin and yang. Tea or coffee. Boston Cream or fruit filling. On and on but it all comes back to right and wrong. Only one side can be right or good so by default this makes the other side wrong or bad.

Russian citizens going to work is right or good. Islamist suicide bombers targeting citizens instead of military targets wrong or bad.

I'm glad you denounce terrorism with me. Islamist suicide bombers have no place in our society. I wonder if they were vieled or not. I heard the yweren't but who knows what's true in the MSM which is taken over largely by socialists.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[bloodyminded]

Their is always only two sides of anything.

I sincerely doubt this is true....

Right and wrong. Good and bad. White and black. Yin and yang. Tea or coffee. Boston Cream or fruit filling. On and on but it all comes back to right and wrong. Only one side can be right or good so by default this makes the other side wrong or bad.

....and I know for sure this isn't true.

Russian citizens going to work is right or good. Islamist suicide bombers targeting citizens instead of military targets wrong or bad.

I agree with you. Similarly, chechnyen civilians going about their daily lives not bothering anyone is good. Russian troops raping, looting, and executing them is bad.

I'm glad you denounce terrorism with me. Islamist suicide bombers have no place in our society.

Nor do State terrorists as enacted through the military forces.

And of course, the Russians have killed and oppressed far more Chechnyens than the other way 'round.

Like I said, even trying to compare the two is like an obscene joke; because the Russians have been far, far worse.

Edited April 4, 2010 by bloodyminded

[BCMan]

Mr. Canada,

I would have to disagree with you again...I am more concerned about the conclusions you derive from your statements. "You are either with me or against me". There is more to things than you see that should be considered.

I totally agree with bloodyminded here.

[bloodyminded]

Mr. Canada,

I would have to disagree with you again...I am more concerned about the conclusions you derive from your statements. "You are either with me or against me". There is more to things than you see that should be considered.

I totally agree with bloodyminded here.

Thanks, BCMan, and you make a point I hadn't really made. It's not the disagreements on facts that irritates; it's the wilful decision to never agree on facts, by definition of the "with me or with the terrorists" formula.

[Mr.Canada]

Thanks, BCMan, and you make a point I hadn't really made. It's not the disagreements on facts that irritates; it's the wilful decision to never agree on facts, by definition of the "with me or with the terrorists" formula.

That's all their is. Every issue is black or white and that's how I see things. I pick a side and go on the attack. If you're not on the side of innocent citizens then you're on the side of the cowards.

I don't understand how you can support the Russian people and support the terrorists at the same time bloodyminded. Sounds like some sort of communist/socialist thing. Free love and all that crap.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[bloodyminded]

That's all their is. Every issue is black or white and that's how I see things. I pick a side and go on the attack. If you're not on the side of innocent citizens then you're on the side of the cowards.

I don't understand how you can support the Russian people and support the terrorists at the same time bloodyminded. Sounds like some sort of communist/socialist thing. Free love and all that crap.

Where did I support the terrorists? The only one who hasn't condemned terrorism in this thread is you.

I don't understand how you can support the Chechnyen people and support the State terrorists at the same time Mr. Canada. Sounds like some sort of communist/socialist thing.

[Mr.Canada]

Where did I support the terrorists? The only one who hasn't condemned terrorism in this thread is you.

I don't understand how you can support the Chechnyen people and support the State terrorists at the same time Mr. Canada. Sounds like some sort of communist/socialist thing.

Lol. Come on bloodyminded, give me a break. I don't support the Chechen's at all and I want Russia to reclaim all those territories that broke away and remake a version of the USSR. I am not a communist but I think they were better off. Dissenters were quieted and we never heard of all these bizarre nations. I like the idea of ultimate power. It makes things very clear and everyone knows where they stand immediately. We don't have this mushy mealy crap we have going on now.

[bloodyminded]

Lol. Come on bloodyminded, give me a break. I don't support the Chechen's at all and I want Russia to reclaim all those territories that broke away and remake a version of the USSR. I am not a communist but I think they were better off. Dissenters were quieted and we never heard of all these bizarre nations. I like the idea of ultimate power. It makes things very clear and everyone knows where they stand immediately. We don't have this mushy mealy crap we have going on now.

I find this a bit surprising, but it's beside the point we've been debating.

If you support Russian State terror (for that's precisely what it is) against Chechnya, you support terrorism. And if that's so, then it's hard to take criticisms of other (lesser, in fact) terrorisms seriously.

[Mr.Canada]

I find this a bit surprising, but it's beside the point we've been debating.

If you support Russian State terror (for that's precisely what it is) against Chechnya, you support terrorism. And if that's so, then it's hard to take criticisms of other (lesser, in fact) terrorisms seriously.

The Russian government wanting to protect its people isn't terrorism. If it where are the charges filed and with whom?

[bloodyminded]

The Russian government wanting to protect its people isn't terrorism. If it where are the charges filed and with whom?

How are Russian troops murdering civilians, raping them, and looting from them an act of "protecting its own people"?

Seriously, I'd be fascinated to hear the justifications for murder, rape and theft.

[wyly]

Violence yes, but there is no genocide in Chechnya. The Russian State is protecting its territory. Chechens willing to accept that they are Russian citizens in a federal state largely face no problem. Tatarstan, for example, is a sovereign republic within the Russian federation. Chechnya has had this choice.

so if when Quebec votes to separate Canada sends in the troops to loot rape torture, slaughter and level Quebec City and Montreal and it's ok because Canada is protecting it's property?..."there is no genocide in Chechnya" you are no different than a holocaust denier

GENOCIDE-

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or [in part[/u], a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

* (a) Killing members of the group;

* B Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

* © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Is territorial integrity justification for horrific violence? The Russian federal State has offered terms to the Chechen Republic similar to the Tatar Republic. This amounts to autonomy while remaining part of the Russian Federation. (Rene Levesque asked for far less.) The US fought a bloody civil war on such a question - and Abraham Lincoln (now at least) is considered a great man. (Putin has not made the claim that Russia is liberating women from an Islamic yolk.) IOW, Russians (Yeltsin/Putin) have been willing to accomodate Chechens. It is Chechens that obtusely refuse to remain part of the Russia Federation, on very liberal terms.

past history does not legitimize repetition...Romans would slaughter and sell off entire peoples into slavery for rebellion against the state so we should repeat that behaviour?...cultural behaviour does evolve and advance perhaps you should try join the 21st century and leave the 19th behind...

Most if not all people today would say that the defeat of Hitler and Tojo was a good thing for human civilization. Similarly I suspect, most if not all civilized people think that the scourge of Wahabi Islam is better defeated.

eerily familiar to another more famous quote "should I not also have the right to eliminate millions of an inferior race that multiplies like vermin"-A. Hitler

you justify and support torture, rape and murder...you support genocide...you're disgusting...

Edited April 5, 2010 by wyly

[Mr.Canada]

How are Russian troops murdering civilians, raping them, and looting from them an act of "protecting its own people"?

Seriously, I'd be fascinated to hear the justifications for murder, rape and theft.

So now you're in support of Chechen Islamic suicide bombers or are trying apologize for them or what are you doing now?

You seem to be doing just that typical socialist thing to do. Finding a perceived victim or underdog and side with them.

What about the innocent people who were killed on their way to work and school? This could easily happen in Toronto and I believe it will at some point. Will you then blame Canada's involvement on the war on terror or somehow say we deserved it?

[bloodyminded]

Violence yes, but there is no genocide in Chechnya. The Russian State is protecting its territory.

Territory annexed through force and of which the Chechnyens have never accepted.

Chechens willing to accept that they are Russian citizens in a federal state largely face no problem.

Well of course: if you do whatever your Master tells you, you'll likely be ok. Awesome.

But wyly, you raise a broader question. Under what circumstances should anyone use violence, even horrific tactics, in defending their cause against an opponent? I don't know.

Is territorial integrity justification for horrific violence?

These questions are best aimed at yourself. Chechnyen violence has been a mosquito bite in comparison to the wanton, massive slaughters and oppressions that the Russians have visited upon their weaker neighbours. It's just that you believe some terrorisms are fine, and others are not.

In the '94 war, Russians virtually flattened Groznyy, killing a lot of people, and destroying most residential and public buildings, including hospitals and an orphanage. They also prevented civilians from evacuating, and prevented humanitarian workers from supplying any aid.

These are serious war crimes, as you may or may not know. they certainly eclipse the crimes of Chechnyen terrorists.

In '99, the Russians began the pretext of fighting a war on terrorism--pre-dating Bush's imperium but post-dating Reagan's precise wording of same. No one took it seriously until 9/11, when of course servile sycophants everywhere chose to take everything powerful people say at face value so long as the targets are Muslim. In fact, it was a continuation of the '94 Russian atrocities, with similar results. Again, civilians not only killed, but targeted; again, no innocent people allowed out of the sight of Russian guns.

It's state terrorism on a large scale.

Edited April 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

So now you're in support of Chechen Islamic suicide bombers or are trying apologize for them or what are you doing now?

You seem to be doing just that typical socialist thing to do. Finding a perceived victim or underdog and side with them.

What about the innocent people who were killed on their way to work and school? This could easily happen in Toronto and I believe it will at some point. Will you then blame Canada's involvement on the war on terror or somehow say we deserved it?

You keep repeating these inanities even after I respond to them.

One more time: I do not support Chechnyen terrorism.

And you do support Russian terrorism.

And the Russian terrorism is worse by a great magnitude than the Chechnyen terrorism.

Clear enough?

[wyly]

[quote name='bloodyminded' date='05 April 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1270486371' post='528494' These questions are best aimed at yourself. Chechnyen violence has been a mosquito bite in comparison to the wanton, massive slaughters and oppressions that the Russians have visited upon their weaker neighbours. It's just that you believe some terrorisms are fine, and others are not.

it's 19th century thinking, might makes right..."we conquered you, now graciously submit to our glorious imperialism or we will kill you"...