Israel continues to spit in the face of international law

[ToadBrother]

I don't make specific predictions about the future. But in general terms I foresee this: if Israel continues its beligerent (in act who cares about words anybody can sing) and aggressive policies in the occupied territories for much longer, the eventual outcome of this affair for them will be very different from what they plan for.

Really? How? There's no appetite at all in the Arab world to actually wage another war against Israel, seeing as how they were so soundly thumped when they tried. If you're referring to Iran, if it did launch any kind of attack against Israel, Tehran, Qom and every other major city would be radioactive craters. It, like the Arab countries, uses Israel as a useful way to keep their citizens angry without them being angry at the right target; mainly the corrupt, maniacal and incredibly inept governments these poor people live under.

[ToadBrother]

Germany has been unified for some time now.

We talk about the losers in the war. Germany lost, and yet you claim East Berlin is as much a part of Germany as West Berlin. They were two separate countries and treated as such until reunification. The wall came down.

If you admit that East Berlin is a part of Germany, but you make the claim that Jerusalem belongs to Israel because Palestinians and the Jordanians lost the war.

Germany was the looser but East Berlin is a part of Germany.

Jordan/Palestine lost the war, but East Jerusalem is a part of Israel.

The Wall is still up.

Care to clear this up for me? It's confusing.

Germany didn't get back Danzig. Austria lost Bohemia. Japan lost the Kurils. Finland didn't get Karelia back. You fight wars and lose, you lose territory.

[GostHacked]

No great mystery. Germany lost the war and so lost a big chunk of territory to Russia. Russia then lost the cold war to the US and NATO so Germany regained its lost territory.

So how does this compare to the East/West Jerusalem? Will Jerusalem be reunited after the Jew/Arab Cold War?

Was it really a war if no shots are fired? Why did the USSR suddenly become an enemy of the West when there was an agreement on dividing up Germany after WWII.

Argus

No great mystery. Germany lost the war and so lost a big chunk of territory to Russia. Russia then lost the cold war to the US and NATO so Germany regained its lost territory.

If the Arab countries got together and eliminated Israel and the Jews lost land because of a war. Would you Israel supporters be crying foul? Would those who support Israel say' Well it was a war and Israel lost', and move on?

I know they tried and lost land, but what if they were successful. Sure this is purely hypothetical, but I think it demands consideration.

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I see some major differences in comparing the East/West Jerusalem to East/West Germany. I'll try to best explain myself, I'll put that in another reply.

[M.Dancer]

So how does this compare to the East/West Jerusalem? Will Jerusalem be reunited after the Jew/Arab Cold War?

It already is re-united...you asking if it will be divided again..

[myata]

Really? How? There's no appetite at all in the Arab world to actually wage another war against Israel, seeing as how they were so soundly thumped when they tried. If you're referring to Iran, if it did launch any kind of attack against Israel, Tehran, Qom and every other major city would be radioactive craters. It, like the Arab countries, uses Israel as a useful way to keep their citizens angry without them being angry at the right target; mainly the corrupt, maniacal and incredibly inept governments these poor people live under.

Just a hunch. Future works in mysterious ways. Take apartheid regime in South Africa for example, it was so strong and so dominant and occupied other countries too. And now, where can it be found, only a few decades from its peak, such a triffle in the measures of history?

[GostHacked]

It already is re-united...you asking if it will be divided again..

It clearly is not reunited. The wall is still there. The wall is expanding. And there is a dispute obviously over the land.

There was never an intention on behalf of the UN to have Jerusalem claimed by one or the other. Jerusalem was to remain neutral and neither side could reign over it. As soon as the Arab/Israeli war broke out the UN abandoned that plan.

All this I still blame on the Brits and the League of Nations. This screw up on their part is still causing grief in the area.

http://www.jerusalem-insiders-guide.com/arab-israeli-war.html

Did the British actually support and install Mufti? Knowing Mufti was a supporter of the Nazi regime and Hitler? It does seem so.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/mufti.html

Appointed Mufti of Jerusalem by the British in 1921, Haj Amin al-Husseini was the most prominent Arab figure in Palestine during the Mandatory period. Al-Husseini was born in Jerusalem in 1893, and went on to serve in the Ottoman Army during World War I. Anti-British and anti-Jewish, the mufti was the key nationalist figure among Muslims in Palestine. Fearful that increased Jewish immigration to Palestine would damage Arab standing in the area, the mufti engineered the bloody riots against Jewish settlement in 1929 and 1936.

Al-Husseini's appointment as mufti was itself the subject of much controversy. The decision to grant al-Husseini the position was made by Herbert Samuel, the first high commissioner of Palestine. It was odd that Samuel, a British Jew, would appoint a man who would be responsible for so much unrest within the Mandatory area. Al-Husseini in fact had been sentenced to ten years in prison by the British for inciting riots in 1920. None of that sentence was served, as al-Husseini had fled to Transjordan, and was soon after amnestied by Samuel himself.

[M.Dancer]

It clearly is not reunited. The wall is still there. The wall is expanding. And there is a dispute obviously over the land.

What wall? Whose wall?

[GostHacked]

What wall? Whose wall?

Uh huh.

[M.Dancer]

Uh huh.

No really..tell me about the Jerusalem wall...

[Argus]

So how does this compare to the East/West Jerusalem? Will Jerusalem be reunited after the Jew/Arab Cold War?

Was it really a war if no shots are fired? Why did the USSR suddenly become an enemy of the West when there was an agreement on dividing up Germany after WWII.

Why is kind of beside the point. The Russians took it and held it because they had the strength to do so. When they no longer had the strength to hold onto E Berlin - or E Germany, they pulled back and relinquished that territory.

If the Arab countries got together and eliminated Israel and the Jews lost land because of a war. Would you Israel supporters be crying foul?

Depends on the circumstances, but I rather doubt we'd complain for 50 years, and force the Jews to stay in camps the entire time without ever granting them citizenship.

[GostHacked]

No really..tell me about the Jerusalem wall...

Well, you know I am talking about the Israeli wall. But instead of being smug about it, you can at least contribute something to this thread.

I was incorrect in saying the barrier went through Jerusalem, however it did separate East Jerusalem from the West Bank. Like in a land grab effort. Close enough I guess.

[GostHacked]

Why is kind of beside the point. The Russians took it and held it because they had the strength to do so. When they no longer had the strength to hold onto E Berlin - or E Germany, they pulled back and relinquished that territory.

I tend to agree, the two situations are not the same. They may have some similarities between them, but overall quite different.

Depends on the circumstances, but I rather doubt we'd complain for 50 years, and force the Jews to stay in camps the entire time without ever granting them citizenship.

We sure would not want to bring on another holocaust!

[Argus]

There was never an intention on behalf of the UN to have Jerusalem claimed by one or the other. Jerusalem was to remain neutral and neither side could reign over it. As soon as the Arab/Israeli war broke out the UN abandoned that plan.

Jerusalem was holy to both sides, not to mention Christianity. On the whole, I'd say the Jews have been a lot more fair in their administration, in allowing access to and protecting holy sites, far more, in fact, than the Arabs were, so I really don't have a lot of argument with Israel holding onto the place.

[M.Dancer]

Well, you know I am talking about the Israeli wall. But instead of being smug about it, you can at least contribute something to this thread.

I was incorrect in saying the barrier went through Jerusalem, however it did separate East Jerusalem from the West Bank. Like in a land grab effort. Close enough I guess.

Yes you were incorrect. Jerusalem is a united city...some want it divided..

[GostHacked]

Yes you were incorrect. Jerusalem is a united city...some want it divided..

Land grab is all this barrier is good for. It has not provided the security Israel is seeking. Rockets don't seem to care there is a barrier in place.

[M.Dancer]

Land grab is all this barrier is good for. It has not provided the security Israel is seeking. Rockets don't seem to care there is a barrier in place.

The barrier is in the west bank....how many rockets have beeen launched from the west bank in the last 3 years? The barrier was to prevent suicide bombings which had become all to common...how many suicide bombing have there been in the last 3 years?

[myata]

Interesting: in Berlin, wall was brough down by voluntary and peaceful unification; while in Jerusalem, a wall was built to "unite" it. Along with brute force and blatant disrespect for international law, of course.

Some similarities indeed.

[Bonam]

International Law and agreements from the British Mandate for Palestine and League of Nations created Israel.

Completely false. Try reading an actual history of the area sometime. Israel was created by the people of Israel fighting a war of independence. League of Nations? That didn't even exist by then, it was the UN, who proposed the partition plan, which the Arabs rejected. That would have been the end of it, if it was up to "international law", but the Israelis declared themselves an independent state. Then, when the Arabs invaded Israel, did the UN go in to help enforce the borders that they had proposed for the new Israeli state? Nope, they sat back and watched. If the Jews had lost the 1948 war, there would be no Israel.

[GostHacked]

Completely false. Try reading an actual history of the area sometime. Israel was created by the people of Israel fighting a war of independence. League of Nations? That didn't even exist by then, it was the UN, who proposed the partition plan, which the Arabs rejected. That would have been the end of it, if it was up to "international law", but the Israelis declared themselves an independent state. Then, when the Arabs invaded Israel, did the UN go in to help enforce the borders that they had proposed for the new Israeli state? Nope, they sat back and watched. If the Jews had lost the 1948 war, there would be no Israel.

Why would one ignore the British Mandate and League of Nations contributions to the eventual creation of Israel?

[Bonam]

Why would one ignore the British Mandate and League of Nations contributions to the eventual creation of Israel?

To say they had some contribution to the history behind the creation of Israel is fine. But you said that they "created Israel", thus attributing sole credit for Israel's creation to these entities, which is false and incorrect.

[GostHacked]

To say they had some contribution to the history behind the creation of Israel is fine. But you said that they "created Israel", thus attributing sole credit for Israel's creation to these entities, which is false and incorrect.

The idea has to start somewhere.

[Bonam]

The idea has to start somewhere.

The idea didn't start with them.

[GostHacked]

The idea didn't start with them.

Where did it start then? How far back do we go? And why does that not matter anyways?

[myata]

Completely false. Try reading an actual history of the area sometime. Israel was created by the people of Israel fighting a war of independence. League of Nations? That didn't even exist by then,

If I'm not mistaken it was League of Nations that gave British the mandate to rule these territories. The British then decided in their almightiness to allow massive foreign immigration to the land. Which lead to conflicts, acquisition of arms, terrorist campaign and so on, as per your post.

So League of Nations and British (as the US and many countries thereafter) both influenced the course of this conflict. I'm not sure how much positive could be extracted from going back to the sources of conflict, but if you're going to use history as argument, leaving out essential events as though they didn't happen instantly reduces credibility of that argument to zero, turning it into plain apology.

[Bonam]

Where did it start then? How far back do we go? And why does that not matter anyways?

I don't know, why did you bring it up?