No Extradition for Marc Emery

[Guest American Woman]

And so how do you feel about Chinese sedition and security laws and their application?

Give me a break. If you're going to try to compare U.S. law and the U.S. justice system to "Chinese sedition and security laws and their applications," you'll have to get someone else to play along.

[Sir Bandelot]

Doesn't matter, he was breaking the law in the US. I'm sick of self absorbed idiots like him who hide behind this country while breaking the laws of another and then expect this country to save him from the consequences of his own actions. A fight he went looking for.

If it's illegal in Canada, then I don't understood why he is not being charged here. Why does it take extradition to have him face charges? Let him be charged for his crimes in Canada. Or is there something else behind this case that we don't know about...

[Bonam]

25 years with no change of parole, double credit doesn't exist anymore, or soon won't, and early release cannot happen in the 25 year to life case.

I guess it depends on the kind of life sentence. I'm not an expert on the Canadian justice system but people who get nominally sentenced to "life" do sometimes get out after less than 25 years.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

If it's illegal in Canada, then I don't understood why he is not being charged here. Why does it take extradition to have him face charges? Let him be charged for his crimes in Canada. Or is there something else behind this case that we don't know about...

Maybe the Canada - US Extradition Treaty? Just a guess....

[Smallc]

Many sentences in Canada are something to life. Murder, depending on the degree, is either 10 to life or 25 to life. Except for the faint hope clause in first degree, it is 25 to life. The faint hope clause, like the two for one credit, will soon be going away.

[capricorn]

I believe Cannabis seeds (aka his products) are legal to possess in Canada while it is not in USA.

Can someone confirm this?

Dancer is right. I was getting up to speed on the Emery case when I came across this.

Trade in seeds is illegal in Canada and the U.S., but the law is seldom enforced here.

http://www.canada.com/news/Prince+Marc+Emery+could+extradited+Friday/2417696/story.html

[Bonam]

Many sentences in Canada are something to life. Murder, depending on the degree, is either 10 to life or 25 to life. Except for the faint hope clause in first degree, it is 25 to life. The faint hope clause, like the two for one credit, will soon be going away.

Good, guess we're having some progress then.

[Wilber]

If it's illegal in Canada, then I don't understood why he is not being charged here. Why does it take extradition to have him face charges? Let him be charged for his crimes in Canada. Or is there something else behind this case that we don't know about...

Why he is not being charged here is another question entirely. Because he committed his crime in the US. Just because we don't care about people breaking our laws doesn't mean they have to do the same. Other than as a matter of scale, what is the difference between this and countries who protect terrorists from their acts in other countries? Should the bombers of Pan Am 103 have stood trial in Libya instead of Scotland? I assume blowing up civil aircraft is illegal in Libya, but maybe not.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Wilber

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe the Canada - US Extradition Treaty? Just a guess....

That's what I thought, too, but now I'm not so sure. Apparently part of the terms of the treaty are that the offense is a crime in both nations and that it must be "for conduct which constitutes an offense punishable by the laws of both Contracting Parties by imprisonment or other form of detention for a term exceeding one year or any greater punishment." So it seems as if that wouldn't apply here, since the conduct isn't an offense punishable by imprisonment or detention for at least a year in Canada.

link

Edited March 17, 2010 by American Woman

[Smallc]

Other than as a matter of scale, what is the difference between this and countries who protect terrorists from their acts in other countries?

Yeah, what's the difference between smoking pot and committing terrorist acts?

Edited March 17, 2010 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

So it seems as if that wouldn't apply here, since the conduct isn't an offense punishable by imprisonment or detention for at least a year in Canada.

Cleary the trafficking of seeds is illegal in both nations, regardless of perceived Canadian indifference to the law (in fact, Emery was charged and convicted in 1998.) As for a felony vs. misdemeanor crime, Emery was charged with three felonies and bargained to spare others from fines and jail time.

[DrGreenthumb]

So according to the MPs' way of thinking, other nation's laws should only be respected if they are exactly the same as Canada's. Do you honestly think it's ok to knowingly break another nation's laws, knowing full well what the penalties are for breaking those laws, and then not be held accountable? You think it's right that Canada protects a citizen under those circumstances?

Marc committed his so called "crimes" entirely on Canadian soil. If the American want to go after anyone they should go after their own citizens for breaking their laws by ordering cannabis seeds online. It is up to the consumer to know the laws in their own jurisdiction. Half the states have more liberal pot laws than Canada does.

There are plenty of places right in the USA that sell seeds openly too. California even has medical pot dispensiaries, and some places sell actual bud in vending machines. This is a political attack on Marc Emery for being such an effective legalization advocate. Would we extradite someone to china for illegally selling the Bible to people there through a Christian website? I think friggin not.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... Would we extradite someone to china for illegally selling the Bible to people there through a Christian website? I think friggin not.

No...since bibles are legally sold to state sanctioned churches in China on a regular basis:

My link

Edited March 17, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Yeah, what's the difference between smoking pot and committing terrorist acts?

The difference is scale and a different opinion on what constitutes acceptable behavior, nothing more. The point is, we do not have the right to tell other countries what crimes may be committed on their soil. Do you think that we should extend the same principle to other nations regarding what crimes their citizens are allowed to commit on ours?

We are guilty of the same thing we have been critical of Americans for in the past, the idea that they should be able to do things in the rest of the world the same as in the good old US of A. We are every bit as bad, just a lot more smug.

[ToadBrother]

Give me a break. If you're going to try to compare U.S. law and the U.S. justice system to "Chinese sedition and security laws and their applications," you'll have to get someone else to play along.

If I view US drug laws as unjust, regardless of whether or not I feel the larger subset of US law to be just, then certainly this is grounds for me to suggest that an individual convicted of a crime under such statutes ought not be extradited? That is essentially the reasoning behind not allowing those who could face the death penalty from being extradited to the US without assurances from prosecutors and the US government that the individual will not be executed.

I'm not defending Emery. I think the US's drug laws are idiotic, but that's not what I was asking. What I was asking is if it is legitimate for any nation to extradite some accused of or convicted of a crime in another nation where that nation feels the laws under which the individual were convicted were unjust if only in the severity of the punishment.

[M.Dancer]

Question: What's the difference between emery and somthing I might give a shit about?

[bush_cheney2004]

..... What I was asking is if it is legitimate for any nation to extradite some accused of or convicted of a crime in another nation where that nation feels the laws under which the individual were convicted were unjust if only in the severity of the punishment.

Yes....see International Criminal Court, Hate Speech, and "crimes against humanity".

[ToadBrother]

Question: What's the difference between emery and somthing I might give a shit about?

Probably nothing other than the principle. This extends to seemingly unrelated things, like the UK's idiotic libel laws, which have made it the libel tourism capital of the world, to their point Congress is pondering ways to eliminate the risk to US citizens.

[ToadBrother]

Yes....see International Criminal Court, Hate Speech, and "crimes against humanity".

It's difficult to imagine how someone like Milosevic would have been dragged to the Hague if not with the help of local government. I haven't exactly seen a lot of UN paratroopers dropping in on accused war criminals. The ICC, like any court, is only as good as its ability to enforce, and, for the most part, enforcement in the ICC is reliant on the co-operation of the states in question.

Or, to put it another way, was there a point to that red herring?

And there are serious concerns about this with some EU members, in particular Britain, which faces the unsavory prospect of extraditing people to other EU members for things that aren't even actually crimes in the UK. As much as extradition agreements are generally good, clearly precedents have long been set on the extent to which extraditions are permissible. Maybe Emery doesn't reach that particular line in the sand, but there is, somewhere, a line in the sand.

[Guest American Woman]

Would we extradite someone to china for illegally selling the Bible to people there through a Christian website? I think friggin not.

Selling the Bible isn't illegal in Canada. Selling seeds is.

"It's an illegal business," said Staff Sgt. Andre Potvin of the RCMP's Montreal drug section. "There has been a general misconception for years even among law enforcement that cannabis seeds are not illegal to possess, and that was clarified with this [Heaven's Stairway bust] operation."

[M.Dancer]

Probably nothing other than the principle. This extends to seemingly unrelated things, like the UK's idiotic libel laws, which have made it the libel tourism capital of the world, to their point Congress is pondering ways to eliminate the risk to US citizens.

In my mind the principle stands....being an egomaniac is not a defense, stupidity is not a defense...why on earth would we waste any political and diplomatic capital on an egotistical moron who virtually begged to be arrersted?

[ToadBrother]

In my mind the principle stands....being an egomaniac is not a defense, stupidity is not a defense...why on earth would we waste any political and diplomatic capital on an egotistical moron who virtually begged to be arrersted?

I'm not saying we should. I will sleep just as well tonight whether Emery stays in Canada or gets trundled down to the States. He is an idiot. Trying to make a point by cutting off your nose doesn't make look any better in the mirror.

But there is a general principle that we can refuse to extradite, even to friendly nations like the US, where we feel the conviction and/or punishment crosses a certain law beyond which we feel rights of the accused or convicted are at substantial risk. I don't think Emery meets that standard, but, in theory, it's not necessarily always an affront to justice and civilization to deny extradition requests.

[DrGreenthumb]

Selling the Bible isn't illegal in Canada. Selling seeds is.

"It's an illegal business," said Staff Sgt. Andre Potvin of the RCMP's Montreal drug section. "There has been a general misconception for years even among law enforcement that cannabis seeds are not illegal to possess, and that was clarified with this [Heaven's Stairway bust] operation."

The court of appeal ruled that the appropriate sentence for selling seeds is a 200 dollar fine in Canada. Not exactly something considered worthy of harsh punishment. Marc's business operated in Canada. People from all over the world ordered seeds online. They are the ones who should be held to account for breaking the laws of their own countries. In Canada we can download songs, etc all we want, we pay a tax on the blank cd's and recordable media. If an American kid downloaded a song from a Canadian through a file shareing service like Limewire, should we extradite the Canadian to the states to face charges? I don't frickin think so.

[bush_cheney2004]

The court of appeal ruled that the appropriate sentence for selling seeds is a 200 dollar fine in Canada.

Great...$200...for each count.

[bush_cheney2004]

But Emery has bigger problems than that...he has been indicted for conspiracy and money laundering as well.

Edited March 17, 2010 by bush_cheney2004