bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2010 Report Posted March 14, 2010 That's not to say that experience is unimportant, but in the face of actual hard data, when we are discussing an entire system or indeed in this case, an entire society, it's rather meaningless. So what you bring to the table is youthful optimism and a lot of links to "hard data" (from somebody else)? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted March 14, 2010 Report Posted March 14, 2010 Well, that's already at least two more things than you bring. I know which links to look for, because I've heard all the information before. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2010 Report Posted March 14, 2010 Well, that's already at least two more things than you bring. I know which links to look for, because I've heard all the information before. Okay, so you're good at Googling the aggregate experience of others That don't impress me much So you got the brain but have you got the touch Don't get me wrong, yeah I think you're alright But that won't keep me warm in the middle of the night That don't impress me much Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Born Free Posted March 15, 2010 Report Posted March 15, 2010 ...and none of Twains shall meet.... Quote
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Posted March 15, 2010 I'd just like to apologize to AW for getting a bit...snippy. Yes, I realize that experience is an important thing in life, and I respect the views of others. I very much respect the things that you have to say. That said, when experience clashes with the numbers, I'm usually going to trust the numbers. Maybe that's because I'm young, I don't know, but it's the way that I see things. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted March 15, 2010 Report Posted March 15, 2010 I'd just like to apologize to AW for getting a bit...snippy. Yes, I realize that experience is an important thing in life, and I respect the views of others. I very much respect the things that you have to say. That said, when experience clashes with the numbers, I'm usually going to trust the numbers. Maybe that's because I'm young, I don't know, but it's the way that I see things. Thank you. I appreciate it. And of course we all see things differently at different stages in our lives, so I understand where you are coming from. Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 No, it is condescending...well, you're only 21, so you don't know any better, is what you're telling me. No matter what I argue, you can tell me that I simply don't know because I haven't experienced it. I don't accept that in this case. I've provided income information. I've provided taxation information. I've provided (right now) price differential information. You've dismissed most of it, but it's the only thing we have to go on, other than...experience. Quite frankly, when I provide hard facts that tell me something, I don't really put much stock in the experience of others, because against such facts, it's meaningless. That's not to say that experience is unimportant, but in the face of actual hard data, when we are discussing an entire system or indeed in this case, an entire society, it's rather meaningless. Price differential info: http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/673837 Smallc, are you serious? You can make all the cites you want and call them hard facts and yet the experience of all those involved in crossborder shopping disproves those "hard facts"! The Star is in the business of selling newspapers, not spreading truth. Taxation info also comes from biased sources. No Canadian government source would ever want to clearly admit that Canada is not doing anything but wonderfully! A housewife crosses over the Rainbow Bridge into Niagara Falls, NY. She buys X amount of goods with Y amount of money. She hides the goods under her baby's diaper bag or whatever and when she gets home she knows quite well how much she has saved compared to buying at her local sources. You can not only wave your "hard facts" in her face but bop her over the head with them and she will not believe you. Why? Because you would be asking her to deny the basic math of her purchases that simply doesn't support your argument! THAT's what we mean by "life experience"! Believe it or not, some of us older folks actually argued some of the same points you expound today many years if not decades ago. Life exposes us to the hidden details of a situation or a premise, details that are usually lacking in an academic textbook. To get someone to revisit one of those arguments and accept your differing POV without A REALLY GOOD NEW POINT is difficult, considering we all have only so much spare time to waste! That's not to say that sometimes a younger, fresher observer might come up with a new slant on things, making it worth examining our beliefs to see if they still stand the test of time. However, using a Star article to deny the existence of hard cash left in a housewife's pocket is almost surrealistic! Money is money and a saving cannot be denied! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 Like I said, in the face of hard evidence (the Star article [which did have a source]....along with the stats can info...and the info from both the Canadian and US governments...as well as the OECD) narrow life experience means little. US prices are much lower for some things, but they average about 7% ( a bit higher now with our higher dollar). There are things that cost more there too. Not many, but there are. There is also a wider variety of goods. However, taking into account the difference in wages, taxes, and prices, things don't look nearly so bad for Canadians in the recent past and the future as they may have before. Actually, depending on how you crunch the numbers things do come out in our favour. Quote
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 But, if you don't like the Star, I can use the Globe: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canada-us-price-gap-narrows/article1235064/ Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 But, if you don't like the Star, I can use the Globe: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canada-us-price-gap-narrows/article1235064/ Hey, you can use Canada Homes and Gardens for all the difference it makes! YOU were the one that claimed we have no great disparity in living standards with the Americans! You don't have to convince me with cites to every newspaper you can find. For your premise to be valid you would have to convince those cross border shopping housewives. THAT would be an ambitious task! I can see you waving your Star and Globe articles in the faces of a sea of housewives, all looking at the contents of their purses and shaking their heads at you. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) For your premise to be valid you would have to convince those cross border shopping housewives. THAT would be an ambitious task! I can see you waving your Star and Globe articles in the faces of a sea of housewives, all looking at the contents of their purses and shaking their heads at you. No, I wouldn't. That's the problem with your arguments. You preach about arguing from a numbers standpoint, unlike us lefties, and then you don't give any numbers and instead talk about your experiences and feelings. I have a feeling it wouldn't matter what information I was to show you, you'd still refuse to accept it. Fact: Canadians now make $200 more per paycheque. Fact: Canadians pay in the range of 5% more tax that Americans on average. Fact: Canadian prices are about 7% higher (likely a bit more given the current exchange rate) than American prices. Fact: At the current exchange rate, Canada and the US have nearly equal per capita GDPs (It was about 50K in CAD, now it's about 50K USD)....possibly higher than the US....our productivity has also started to increase (finally) again. I don't really care about what housewives are doing. I freely admit, there are lower prices in the US and those price differences are substantial in some cases. In other cases, they're in Canada's favour. The average is about 7%. Edited March 17, 2010 by Smallc Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 No, I wouldn't. That's the problem with your arguments. You preach about arguing from a numbers standpoint, unlike us lefties, and then you don't give any numbers and instead talk about your experiences and feelings. I have a feeling it wouldn't matter what information I was to show you, you'd still refuse to accept it. Fact: Canadians now make $200 more per paycheque. Fact: Canadians pay in the range of 5% more tax that Americans on average. Fact: Canadian prices are about 7% higher (likely a bit more given the current exchange rate) than American prices. Fact: At the current exchange rate, Canada and the US have nearly equal per capita GDPs (It was about 50K in CAD, now it's about 50K USD)....possibly higher than the US....our productivity has also started to increase (finally) again. I don't really care about what housewives are doing. I freely admit, there are lower prices in the US and those price differences are substantial in some cases. In other cases, they're in Canada's favour. The average is about 7%. Don't you see, if your numbers are true then there should be no cross border shopping! All those housewives would be losing money! That's why I don't accept your argument! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 Don't you see, if your numbers are true then there should be no cross border shopping! All those housewives would be losing money! No, my numbers don't say that at all. What they say, is that overall the prices aren't that different. Because Canadians now make as much money as they do, and get taxed at a lower level...and with the dollar being stronger, their dollar can go further in the US, even more so than here. There is also some extra selection in the US. Even so, I would say it's fair to surmise that the majority (or even vast majority) of Canadians don't shop in the US very often. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) Canadians aren't just crossing the border to shop for lower prices, they're crossing the border to fly out of the U.S. to save money in airfare: The main reason Canadians make the trek is to save money. Fares between U.S. cities can be hundreds of dollars less than flying directly from a Canadian city. Even with gas, long-term parking and possibly a night's stay in a U.S. hotel, some travelers say they still come out ahead. link Edited March 17, 2010 by American Woman Quote
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 Yes, Canadian flights, especially to the US, do cost more. Part of that though is American taxes on the Canadian entry, but most of it is not. This is a smaller market, and so things will always cost more. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 Yes, Canadian flights, especially to the US, do cost more. Part of that though is American taxes on the Canadian entry, but most of it is not. This is a smaller market, and so things will always cost more. American taxes? According to the article: Higher fees paid by Canadian airports and Canadian taxes ..... Quote
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) I've broken it down here before. There are many American taxes on flights entering the US. There are also many Canadian taxes. Edited March 17, 2010 by Smallc Quote
Smallc Posted March 17, 2010 Report Posted March 17, 2010 This is a return flight to Washington D.C. from Pearson International: Passenger Type Adult Departing Flight - Tango Plus 194.00 Returning Flight - Tango Plus 194.00 Surcharges 15.00 Taxes, Fees and Charges Canada Airport Improvement Fee 25.00 U.S.A Transportation Tax 32.80 U.S Agriculture Fee 5.09 Air Travellers Security Charge (ATSC) 7.94 U.S Passenger Facility Charge 4.58 Canada Goods and Services Tax (GST/HST #10009-2287 RT0001) 21.80 September 11 Security Fee 2.55 U.S.A Immigration User Fee 7.13 Total airfare and taxes before options (per passenger) 509.89 Number Of Passengers 1 Grand Total - Canadian dollars $509.89 Quote
Smallc Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 (edited) Westjet has a more reasonable price right now to Orlando, here is their breakdown: Base Fare : 173.98 CAD GST-HST: 11.10 CAD AIF: 25.00 CAD ATSC: 7.94 CAD US Taxes and Fees: 52.15 CAD NAV/Ins: 15.00 CAD Total: 285.17 CAD US taxes make up a largish part of the total, though they are not even close to the only reason for the high price. Edited March 18, 2010 by Smallc Quote
Guest American Woman Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 You mean *gasp* sources aren't always correct in the information they provide? I don't know if the higher CND taxes make a big difference or not, I was just commenting on the total prices, and pointing out that the article made reference to high CND taxes. I'm not going to sample price enough tickets to know what's what. I'll take people's word, though. And in that regard, here's an interesting site because the 'real life experience' comments are interesting. link Examples: We're on Vancouver Island and flew out of Bellingham, Washington State to Las Vegas at Christmas. We paid $290 CAN for both of us return flight. Also, while in Bellingham I picked up a bush guard for my SUV, groceries, liquor, motor oil, and clothes at the outlet mall. Saved $400 on the bush guard and at least another 300 - 400 on the rest of the items. I believe in buying local but not when it's money out of my pocket. In the next year, we plan on buying a motorcycle and motorhome in the US. So glad we live close to the US border. Someone should tell them prices are comparable, if not better, in Canada. My family and I took a vacation to Cancun, and even with the baggage fee, we saved $400 each to fly with Continental. The only time I fly on a Canadian carrier is if I have to travel within Canada because there are no other alternatives. We are about 1.5 hours from BUffalo airport. We are constantly flying from there even though we have a long drive. THe flights are generally 50% less then flying from Toronto. We are 7 hrs north of Great Falls, MT. I sent my wife and 2 daughters to Germany for half of what it would have cost out of Calgary. So it's not just flights within the U.S. that are cheaper; international flights are also cheaper. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 ....I'll take people's word, though. And in that regard, here's an interesting site because the 'real life experience' comments are interesting. link Fun reading....Canadians are getting hosed, eh? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Born Free Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 I went to Niagra Falls NY last week and paid more for my slurpie than I do here in Toronto. Things must be getting tough down South with all that unemployment and trillions upon trillions of debt. Millions of people without any health care and no hope whatsoever. Hang in there USA!!! Quote
Smallc Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 (edited) Someone should tell them prices are comparable, if not better, in Canada. That's not what I said at all. Overall the prices are comparable, but on things like tires and other vehicle accessories for example, there's no comparison. The only reason that I can think of is because of our smaller market...or because we're getting screwed. Airline prices are understandable because of the higher fees, but the difference of certain items that are absolutely not understandable. Part of the flight costs difference (IIRC) has to do with the fact that American airports don't pay property taxes. Canadian airports are basically now required to be self sufficient for all costs. CATSA Will now be the same way. Edited March 18, 2010 by Smallc Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 I went to Niagra Falls NY last week.... ...but you still went to the USA....and you will be back. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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