M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Does the Taliban use terror to accomplish thier goals, or to influence the population ? the UN and Canada has already defined the defination of who is a terrorist....you can't be both.... Oh they can be both....but they are still terrorists which means instead of the benefits of being treated as an honourable warrior, they are treated as criminals. Nicky and born free think that Geneva convention protection extends this group, not knowing what the full breadth of the protection is, thinking it is only concerned with physical abuse, they are unaware of the differences or how the detainees are not being afforded the priviledges that a legal POW would receive. According to the conventions they do, terrorists/ and some others are not afforded any of the protection the convention provides...with exception that they must be treated humanily....everyone is also afforded basic human rights...There is no transfer of civil jurisdiction of rights, as it would or could conflict, For the life of me I cannot understand why this is so hard to grasp. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Big piont, A criminal down town toronto is roughed up, beaten, can you see the headlines the next morning, "Toronto police torture a man in custody"....can you imagine the inter national response to an action carried out by a few local policemen..... This isnt about Toronto policemen. Its about Canada's military and their alleged misconduct regarding the handling of prisoners/detainees. There is historical precidence that Canada's top military brass have attempted to cover up military misconduct. Only an Inquiry will enable us to get to the bottom of it. I understand that you'd personally would prefer to sweep it under the carpet. Many of us Canadians feel otherwise. It doesnt make us wrong. Can any one here say for sure nothing has been done, The fact that DND policy has changed atleast half a dozen times in regards to Detainees, they've changed the entire way they are handled... Only an Inquiry will get past the smoke and mirrors. A DND chief has used smoke and mirrors before. I dont trust them to be forthright. Once one reaches that lofty position they are as much a politician as they are military. Although DND does inspect it is not thier main function, it falls under many of the sub depts i mentioned before...Human rights watch and red cross, are free to inspect when they wish but thier reports are not going to be our governments main focus, unless they find something gravely wrong... Up to now, the reports from the "watchers" have been crapped on by the government. Ergo, I suggest that the Red Cross reports, etc., were not given ANY focus. Quote
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Which Conventions? We have been around this before....you failed the last time... Your computer must have crashed when it was explained to you. You must still be running under Windows Vista. Quote
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 For the life of me I cannot understand why this is so hard to grasp. Stick with it Morris. One day you will. Quote
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Nicky and born free think that Geneva convention protection extends this group, They do apply. Live with it. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 They do apply. Live with it. Sure they do. Provide one citation from either the US, Canada, the UK etc etc....where they say they are covered by the 3rd convention... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Your computer must have crashed when it was explained to you. You must still be running under Windows Vista. I only read where you showed that you don't grasp the letter or the intention....I don't expect you have had an epiphany... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Does the Taliban use terror to accomplish thier goals, or to influence the population ? the UN and Canada has already defined the defination of who is a terrorist....you can't be both.... Canada clearly lacks the moral and ethical background required to be an authority on the subject of what defines a terrorist. We neutered ourselves in this regard by closely aligning ourselves with countries that have either terrorized and tortured their populations themselves or supported proxy regimes who did. The UN is in an even worse position in this regard given the history of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council. Given this, coupled with the ongoing effort in Ottawa to cover up documents alleged to show evidence of Canada's complicity in war crimes, it's hard not to imagine the worst. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 ...it's hard not to imagine the worst. But you admittedly have a wild imagination not based on reality. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Alta4ever Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Canada clearly lacks the moral and ethical background required to be an authority on the subject of what defines a terrorist. I don't think you understand the term. Clearly Canada has a superior morality, since we are able to discuss such things in open conversation. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Army Guy Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 This isnt about Toronto policemen. Its about Canada's military and their alleged misconduct regarding the handling of prisoners/detainees. There is historical precidence that Canada's top military brass have attempted to cover up military misconduct. Only an Inquiry will enable us to get to the bottom of it. I used that example to explain the difference between beating and torture...they are not the same.... I've asked this question before, what misconduct ? they handed over setainees to local Afghan police, this policy has been set up by our government , Not our military.....once they found out that the police beat the prisoner they took the action required of them by law and retrieved the detainee...No misconduct, but rather soldiers taking the correct course of action.... Historical precidence are you kidding me....Those involved in the somolia affair where charged and dealt with by Canadian law and military law....you can not hold an entire organization to task for the actions of a few individuals....Oh wait this is Canada we are talking about of course we can, hence why the entire Regt was disbanded....and we not only believe in mass punishment by practice it as well, made very clear by your accusation.....Those in Command now were only junior officers at the time of the Somolia affair.... How far back do you want to go for this Historical precedence....i mean since we got the paint brush out why not paint todays military with other wrongs, How about War crimes yes Canadian soldiers have been charged with War crimes in Korea, WWII, and WWI ...And is it just Soldiers we limit this incrediable precedence to....why not every day Canadians as well, i mean our early ancesters killed maimed and hunted down what ever they felt like to settle this country....does that mean you and me carry that weight forever... I understand that you'd personally would prefer to sweep it under the carpet. Many of us Canadians feel otherwise. It doesnt make us wrong. I don't recall ever saying i wanted it swept under the carpet...I think those Afghan police at the very most are guilty of beating a prisoner under they care and control, is that bad, Yes it is...Is it an inter national incident like you guys are playing it out to be "NO".....Thats what makes it wrong... Only an Inquiry will get past the smoke and mirrors. A DND chief has used smoke and mirrors before. I dont trust them to be forthright. Once one reaches that lofty position they are as much a politician as they are military. Once again you've painted everyone with the same brush....your entitled to your opinion, you have that right, but you must be prepared to defend that opinion if you've gone public with it...as you've done...and i say your opinion of our Military leaders is based on Bullshit....it would be the same as me saying all black guys have large dicks......based on myth and no proof And confirms what very little you know about our military....Don't get me wrong i'm not pissed off, i'm a little disappionted. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I don't think you understand the term. Clearly Canada has a superior morality, since we are able to discuss such things in open conversation. I'll reserve comment on that until I see the documents Ottawa is keeping secret. We can't discuss anything to do with Canada's POW's until we do. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Alta4ever Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I'll reserve comment on that until I see the documents Ottawa is keeping secret. We can't discuss anything to do with Canada's POW's until we do. I'm sorry but I don't believe you are entitle to all documents relating to DND. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I used that example to explain the difference between beating and torture...they are not the same.... we've been over this before...is having your fingernails torn out or electrocuted any less painfull than having your nose broken, teeth knocked or even killed in a beating?...beatings=torture... I've asked this question before, what misconduct ? they handed over setainees to local Afghan police, this policy has been set up by our government , Not our military.....once they found out that the police beat the prisoner they took the action required of them by law and retrieved the detainee...No misconduct, but rather soldiers taking the correct course of action....retrieving the detainee's was the correct course of action, but it was suspected beforehand and nothing was done needs to be investigated...we need to know if the government knew and if they lied/covered up their knowledge...Historical precidence are you kidding me....Those involved in the somolia affair where charged and dealt with by Canadian law and military law....you can not hold an entire organization to task for the actions of a few individuals....Oh wait this is Canada we are talking about of course we can, hence why the entire Regt was disbanded....and we not only believe in mass punishment by practice it as well, made very clear by your accusation.....Those in Command now were only junior officers at the time of the Somolia affair....wasn't it you who explained esprit de corps, you can't have that and then not take responsiblity when the group has knowledge of misbehaviour and covers it up..the regiment deserved to be disbanded, the esprit de corps was contaminated...How far back do you want to go for this Historical precedence....i mean since we got the paint brush out why not paint todays military with other wrongs, How about War crimes yes Canadian soldiers have been charged with War crimes in Korea, WWII, and WWI ...And is it just Soldiers we limit this incrediable precedence to....why not every day Canadians as well, i mean our early ancesters killed maimed and hunted down what ever they felt like to settle this country....does that mean you and me carry that weight forever...we certianly should not forget past errors otherwise they'll repeat...if incidents like MyLai were never reported what are the chances it will happen again? 100%...I don't recall ever saying i wanted it swept under the carpet...I think those Afghan police at the very most are guilty of beating a prisoner under they care and control, is that bad, Yes it is...Is it an inter national incident like you guys are playing it out to be "NO".....Thats what makes it wrong... the afghan police are guilty of far more than beatings, prisoners have permanently disappeared...if other countries have assisted then yes it is an international incident... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 We can't discuss anything to do with Canada's POW's until we do. There is nothing to discuss. Canada doesn't have any POWs. I'm not sure where you would find any either...try Chad Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) I only read where you showed that you don't grasp the letter or the intention....I don't expect you have had an epiphany... I dont expect anything from you other than your boorish behaviour... The issue of detainee treatment is quite clear in the Geneva Conventions....it definitely excludes torture. Edited March 10, 2010 by Born Free Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 The issue of detainee treatment is quite clear in the Geneva Conventions....it definitely excludes torture. Correct. So do other conventions which the terrorists are covered. Yet you are unable to support why the terrorists are afforded protection under the 3rd convention. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Sure they do. Provide one citation from either the US, Canada, the UK etc etc....where they say they are covered by the 3rd convention... Why would Canada issue a citation acknowledging the 3rd & 4th convention regarding prisoner/datainees? Makes no sense. We've aready signed on to it. Quote
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Correct. So do other conventions which the terrorists are covered. Yet you are unable to support why the terrorists are afforded protection under the 3rd convention. I dont need to support anything. Its already covered by the GC. You can nitpick all you want about what is in paragraph 4; sub section 3; article 7; but at the end of the day, the issue is all about Canada either willfully ingoring the Convention and now are trying to mitigate their transgression OR perhaps they simply werent doing their duty bound requirement regarding the hand-off of prisoners. In either case, there is enough stuff on the table that warrents a public inquiry in the same fashion as was done for the Somalia Inquiry. I smell a cover up as was done back in '93. Quote
Army Guy Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 we've been over this before...is having your fingernails torn out or electrocuted any less painfull than having your nose broken, teeth knocked or even killed in a beating?...beatings=torture... Really....I've seen many beatings or fights in my time, never have i had anyone discribed them as as torture.... I've had my nose broken in a fight sorry i'm confused when someone tortured me in a bar room brawl.... and i would not compare the two, torture is design to inflict the max amount of pain, with min effort....Beatings does not = torture....those policemen lost thier cool and beat this guy....not for any info or intel but out of frustration...if they wanted to torture this guy they would have done so....and not with a shoe... But it's easy to condemn someone or something when we don't have all the info.... retrieving the detainee's was the correct course of action, but it was suspected beforehand and nothing was done needs to be investigated...we need to know if the government knew and if they lied/covered up their knowledge... And you know it was suspected before hand as fact....I've yet to see any proof of that, do you have a link... wasn't it you who explained esprit de corps, you can't have that and then not take responsiblity when the group has knowledge of misbehaviour and covers it up..the regiment deserved to be disbanded, the esprit de corps was contaminated... SO you agree that mass punishment is the way to go...Of course you also know that those responsiable where charged,retired or posted out of the regt....and 3 years later when the regt was disbanded it was an entirly new unit...Esprit do corp was not contaminated, the entire Regt was under new mangement, and hundreds of soldiers or bad apples where retired or posted....leaving behind professional soldiers who had busted thier asses off to improve the regt and regain it's reputation....NO sir had nothing to do with Esoprit de corp....and everything with short sightedness of our government of the day, Canadians, and military brass that disliked elite troops....nothing more... we certianly should not forget past errors otherwise they'll repeat...if incidents like MyLai were never reported what are the chances it will happen again? 100%... So now your saying we should hold todays military responsable for yesterdays mistakes, how far do we go back....and do we hold anyone else to the same standard...such you and me, and our ancesters... the afghan police are guilty of far more than beatings, prisoners have permanently disappeared...if other countries have assisted then yes it is an international incident... Of course we know this as fact because of what , someone has been convicted, thier currently awaiting trail, or they've been arrested....or there is no proof and therefore here say.....do you have a link... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I dont need to support anything. Its already covered by the GC.. Of course you don't need to. You are under no obligation to look and sound like you know what you are talking about. Never the less, the 3rd convention on the treatment of POWs clearly states who qualifies and you have not produced anything that says different. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I used that example to explain the difference between beating and torture...they are not the same.... Not to the person on the receiving end... I've asked this question before, what misconduct ? they handed over setainees to local Afghan police, this policy has been set up by our government , You must have missed the buzz over the matter of Canada only addressing the issue of detainee torture as late as 2007. If true, its either willful indifference or incompetence that it took so long to address this. Historical precidence are you kidding me....Those involved in the somolia affair where charged and dealt with by Canadian law and military law....you can not hold an entire organization to task for the actions of a few individuals....Oh wait this is Canada we are talking about of course we can, hence why the entire Regt was disbanded....and we not only believe in mass punishment by practice it as well, made very clear by your accusation.....Those in Command now were only junior officers at the time of the Somolia affair.... I would never kid you about General Boyle being complicit in altering documents. I dont hold an entire organization to task. Just the leaders. So should you. Truth Duty Honour. Once again you've painted everyone with the same brush....your entitled to your opinion, you have that right, but you must be prepared to defend that opinion if you've gone public with it...as you've done...and i say your opinion of our Military leaders is based on Bullshit....it would be the same as me saying all black guys have large dicks......based on myth and no proof And confirms what very little you know about our military....Don't get me wrong i'm not pissed off, i'm a little disappionted. First, I'm not painting everyone. Surely you must know that by now. I'm asking that our leaders (government and military) be held to the highest of standards. Please dont play that card.."you werent in the military so you cant possibly understand". It simply doent work. Lets just say that I am close to a retired Col. and we both share the same view on this issue. Truth Duty Honour. We expect it from our soldiers and I expect it from the top brass. There is sufficient probable cause that they need closer inspection. Quote
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Really....I've seen many beatings or fights in my time, never have i had anyone discribed them as as torture.... a fight is two parties having it out, a beating is victim unable to defend themselves/torture...there is a dfference, if I tie you to a chair and a couple of goons start kicking and punching you, do you call that a fight?I've had my nose broken in a fight sorry i'm confused when someone tortured me in a bar room brawl....and i would not compare the two, torture is design to inflict the max amount of pain, with min effort....Beatings does not = torture....those policemen lost thier cool and beat this guy....not for any info or intel but out of frustration...if they wanted to torture this guy they would have done so....and not with a shoe... But it's easy to condemn someone or something when we don't have all the info.... not with a shoe? Zahra Kazemi a Canadian journalist was beaten to death with a shoe while in detention...no torture there...And you know it was suspected before hand as fact....I've yet to see any proof of that, do you have a link...we all know that is a fact the miltary took pictures of the detainee before they turned him over to the Afghans, they suspected detainees were being tortured...SO you agree that mass punishment is the way to go...Of course you also know that those responsiable where charged,retired or posted out of the regt....and 3 years later when the regt was disbanded it was an entirly new unit...Esprit do corp was not contaminated, the entire Regt was under new mangement, and hundreds of soldiers or bad apples where retired or posted....leaving behind professional soldiers who had busted thier asses off to improve the regt and regain it's reputation....NO sir had nothing to do with Esoprit de corp....and everything with short sightedness of our government of the day, Canadians, and military brass that disliked elite troops....nothing more... the military is not a private club where big boys can play soldier it's a job... if esprit de corps is genuine then you accept group punishment for group behaviour, but then esprit de corps is BS when it's not convenient...the military is no different than any other employer, if the boss wants to rearrange a dysfunctional department/regiment he has a right to do so...So now your saying we should hold todays military responsable for yesterdays mistakes, how far do we go back....and do we hold anyone else to the same standard...such you and me, and our ancesters...I never said that at all...Of course we know this as fact because of what , someone has been convicted, thier currently awaiting trail, or they've been arrested....or there is no proof and therefore here say.....do you have a link...I guess we'll get around to that just as soon as the government stops hiding the evidence... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Born Free Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Of course you don't need to. You are under no obligation to look and sound like you know what you are talking about. Never the less, the 3rd convention on the treatment of POWs clearly states who qualifies and you have not produced anything that says different. Hell. You dont even know what you are arguing about anymore. You are simply using this to hurl your usual insults at posters. You have an ugly history of that. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Hell. You dont even know what you are arguing about anymore. You are simply using this to hurl your usual insults at posters. You have an ugly history of that. Yes of course....any luck backing up your assertions? No? Are you ready to consider why? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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