CP Learns that CSIS interrogated tortured Afghan Detainees

[Argus]

The RCMP should seize the documents and deliver them to Parliament, as it is against the law for the Conservatives to withhold them. If it turns out that the document implicate anyone in the Conservative party in war crimes, then those who tried to stall the release of documents(Rob Nicholson), using tricks like prorogations(stephen Harper), should also face obstruction of justice charges.

Have another doobie, dude.

[Argus]

Because you're refusing to understand the problem. The problem isn't interrogation, it's knowingly handing those people over to torture. That has always been the problem.

First, it has not been established that the prisoners taken by Canada were mistreated.

Second, getting a punch in the face does not equal "torture".

[groupeii]

Your link says nothing of what you assert.

Your post is garbage.

For gods sake it is substantiated fact, that the CIA used torture on afghani's.

Also interrogation by the military and intelligence agency is equivocal to torture. If it was "questioning" it wouldn't be interrogation. Interrogation implies coercive use of force and methodologies to derive information which otherwise is not readily accessible.

Your post is garbage.

[Argus]

Like I said, if you were beaten with a shoe in a Canadian jail, you'd sue for millions and have the charges thrown out. Why should you be afforded those rights and not an Afghan? After all, those rights we claim are universal. So, if we're not fighting for that then what are we fighting for?

To keep them from blowing up our office towers and making a mess in our cities.

I don't know why I bother to try to educate the intellectually feeble, but we are not over there to instill freedom and civility among the savages. We're simply there hoping to establish some sort of government which can sit on all the rabble and keep the likes of al Quaeda from re-establishing bases there.

Unfortunately, the Americans, being pie-in-the-sky idealists, insisted on trying to put a democracy in there - which doesn't work. Now we're stuck trying to support it and try to build some sort of support for it among barbarians who think of a flush toilet as "evil foreign magic fountain". These are people who look only to their tribal chiefs for political wisdom, and don't understand democracy - or the compromises which are necessary for one to function.

[Argus]

When we hand people over to a government knowing they'll be tortured, then what's the difference? What is the difference? There is none. The law says as much. That's the only thing that's being ignored here.

We don't know they'll be tortured. We don't know anyone has ever been tortured.

We suspect 1 guy got hit with a shoe.

Most of us do not regard that as the national crisis you seem to.

[groupeii]

We don't know they'll be tortured. We don't know anyone has ever been tortured.

We suspect 1 guy got hit with a shoe.

Most of us do not regard that as the national crisis you seem to.

Have you ever been hit with a shoe? That is a criminal offence in Canada and if a cop took off his shoe and hit you during questioning it would be illegal.

Also we all know that the practices and methods of the government such as cutting brake lines and harassment of organizations that do not follow their party's policy are only the tip of the iceberg of what their behaviour is like in Canada. It is not hard to image the sheer criminality of their operations abroad.

Edited March 9, 2010 by groupeii

[Argus]

You know, in order to get a degree you actually have to read and show an independent thought. You have to take your own arguments and impress. You just don't spit back at your professor what he thinks he wants to hear. That's grounds for failure.

You've never actually met anyone from a post-secondary institution have you?

[nicky10013]

You've never actually met anyone from a post-secondary institution have you?

My degree says otherwise. Sorry pal.

[Argus]

No this is about Conservatives knowing about torture and not doing anything about it. It's actually worse than that even, its now alleged that prisoners were turned over for the express purpose of torture. If you support that you are just as bad as the taliban. I feel even more justified now in refering to the Conservative party as the Christian Taliban.

Have another smoke there doctor pothead, and then lecture us again on your learned and intellectual opinions.

[nicky10013]

We don't know they'll be tortured. We don't know anyone has ever been tortured.

We suspect 1 guy got hit with a shoe.

Most of us do not regard that as the national crisis you seem to.

We all know this is garbage. This is yet another example of a "pro-military" Conservative throwing the Chief of the Defence Staff under the bus because he admitted something that would make the party (which matters more than anything else) look bad.

If there was no torture going on, why would the government draft a document outlining PR moves on when torture allegations became public (youtube video)? They knew what was going on, planned for the media backlash but never fundamentally changed the transfer agreement.

[nicky10013]

Have another smoke there doctor pothead, and then lecture us again on your learned and intellectual opinions.

Intellectualism is the acceptance of the truth no matter what. The fact that you "need to educate us" when you clearly don't even want to come within 100 meters of any truth that might not sync with your version of reality speaks to the fact that you really don't have any claim to call people stupid.

[Mr.Canada]

Have you ever been hit with a shoe? That is a criminal offence in Canada and if a cop took off his shoe and hit you during questioning it would be illegal.

Also we all know that the practices and methods of the government such as cutting brake lines and harassment of organizations that do not follow their party's policy are only the tip of the iceberg of what their behaviour is like in Canada. It is not hard to image the sheer criminality of their operations abroad.

What would happen in Canada is irrelevant.

I'd like to seem some proof that someone was hit wihth a shoe. I'd further liketo see proof that Canada knew about it. I'd also like to see some proof that PM Harper knew about it.

Some guy talking to another guy doesn't make a statement fact, just gossip.

Provide this proof or just stop talking as this is all just gossip.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[M.Dancer]

If there was no torture going on, why would the government draft a document outlining PR moves on when torture allegations became public (youtube video)?

Because scurrilous allegations can either be ignored or challenged.

Sort of like the title to this thread...

[nicky10013]

Because scurrilous allegations can either be ignored or challenged.

Sort of like the title to this thread...

Nothing is wrong with this thread. CSIS officials interviewed afghan detainees who were then turned over to afghan officials and abused. If you've still got a problem with it, perhaps you need to take a literacy refresher course.

[DrGreenthumb]

We don't know they'll be tortured. We don't know anyone has ever been tortured.

We suspect 1 guy got hit with a shoe.

Most of us do not regard that as the national crisis you seem to.

Keep playing dumb just like your precious Conservatives. When the documents come out, it is going to be more than obvious that this goes far beyond one guy being hit with a shoe. If that's all it was they would be so desperate to suppress the information.

[Argus]

Have you ever been hit with a shoe? That is a criminal offence in Canada and if a cop took off his shoe and hit you during questioning it would be illegal.

You are attempting to transpose our culture onto that of Afghanis, like some kind of cultural imperialist.

Violence between and among Afghanis is routine. Employers smack and kick employees. Husband smack and kick wives and children. officers and NCOs in the army and police smack lower ranking soldiers and police. Tribal chiefs beat up annoying members of their tribes. I recall a Canadian journalist writing about some sort of food handout at which Afghani police were wailing away with sticks at women and children to keep them back. When she protested he was confused. What are you talking about, he said, quite cheerfully. everyone is happy, see? And indeed, those he'd hit had simply shrugged off the blows, picked themselves up, and were back to trying to mob the distribution truck.

Now were this in Canada they'd all be staring at him in shock, then calling lawyers and the civilian complaints commisions - and the human rights commisions - and the press.

It's a different world over there.

[ToadBrother]

We can't impose our laws on them. We can abide by them overseas and treat people as we would like to be treated.

Of course we can bloody well impose anything on the Afghan government. It exists only because NATO protects it from obliteration. I see no reason that we couldn't tell Karzai to treat prisoners better, or we'll simply abandon him to the lunatics. We own that stupid, corrupt little government. We bought it, we paid for it, and have allowed a criminal to head it.

[nicky10013]

What would happen in Canada is irrelevant.

I'd like to seem some proof that someone was hit wihth a shoe. I'd further liketo see proof that Canada knew about it. I'd also like to see some proof that PM Harper knew about it.

Some guy talking to another guy doesn't make a statement fact, just gossip.

Provide this proof or just stop talking as this is all just gossip.

The documents would answer all those questions. Unfortunately they're not showing anything even to people with a high enough security clearance to see them. So, what would that tell you?

[Argus]

My degree says otherwise. Sorry pal.

Well then, you are the perfect proof of the innacuracy of your statement.

[nicky10013]

You are attempting to transpose our culture onto that of Afghanis, like some kind of cultural imperialist.

Violence between and among Afghanis is routine. Employers smack and kick employees. Husband smack and kick wives and children. officers and NCOs in the army and police smack lower ranking soldiers and police. Tribal chiefs beat up annoying members of their tribes. I recall a Canadian journalist writing about some sort of food handout at which Afghani police were wailing away with sticks at women and children to keep them back. When she protested he was confused. What are you talking about, he said, quite cheerfully. everyone is happy, see? And indeed, those he'd hit had simply shrugged off the blows, picked themselves up, and were back to trying to mob the distribution truck.

Now were this in Canada they'd all be staring at him in shock, then calling lawyers and the civilian complaints commisions - and the human rights commisions - and the press.

It's a different world over there.

So, Afghan society is more violent and therefore if evidence comes out (it is already out, but like I said, you the intellectual can't seem to handle truth) it'll be ok because Afghanistan was violent to begin with? Is that how you rationalize the degredation of what we believe to be democratic rights?

[Argus]

Of course we can bloody well impose anything on the Afghan government. It exists only because NATO protects it from obliteration. I see no reason that we couldn't tell Karzai to treat prisoners better, or we'll simply abandon him to the lunatics. We own that stupid, corrupt little government. We bought it, we paid for it, and have allowed a criminal to head it.

It's either him or the Taliban. Most believe he is by far the lesser of the two evils.

And Karzai can give any order he wants. An order like this is very, very unlikely to be followed. There is simply too much casual, routine violence in Afghani society.

[nicky10013]

Of course we can bloody well impose anything on the Afghan government. It exists only because NATO protects it from obliteration. I see no reason that we couldn't tell Karzai to treat prisoners better, or we'll simply abandon him to the lunatics. We own that stupid, corrupt little government. We bought it, we paid for it, and have allowed a criminal to head it.

We could, but it would cause a disaster and turn the mission into a bigger failure than it is now.

[Mr.Canada]

So, Afghan society is more violent and therefore if evidence comes out (it is already out, but like I said, you the intellectual can't seem to handle truth) it'll be ok because Afghanistan was violent to begin with? Is that how you rationalize the degredation of what we believe to be democratic rights?

Some guy making a statement isn't proof, it's gossip.

[nicky10013]

Well then, you are the perfect proof of the innacuracy of your statement.

What? How would you know? Tell me, how long were you in university for?

[nicky10013]

Some guy making a statement isn't proof, it's gossip.

Ah, the commander of the military is a gossip and incompetent. Hilarious.