military expenditures

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, there are ways to make a ship work indefinitely. The Corner Brook has already proven the capability of these subs in the arctic, off the coast, and overseas.

Not true...the pressure hulls are designed for about 30 years. This can be expanded with very expensive extension programs and depth limits, but by then the subsystems are obsolete and lacking parts support.

Nope, and they won't be used in such a manner.

Good, because they can't be used that way.

The subs aren't designed to work on their own. They, like almost every deployment, designed to operate in coordination with other navies.

A submarine tender is part of forward supply chain and maintenance capability that Canada certainly lacks when it comes to these subs. You can't just pull up to any port and say "please fix my HPACs" without parts and technical support on site.

[DogOnPorch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Frank_Cable_(AS-40)

[Smallc]

A submarine tender is part of forward supply chain and maintenance capability that Canada certainly lacks when it comes to these subs.

That's why the deployments couldn't be longer than the 56 day maximum and would need to be done in a place where the ships were near a maintenance facility. When the Corner Brook was in the North Sea last year, that wasn't a problem. There are civilian ships that we can contract to maintain the subs if necessary also. We do the same thing to transport equipment.

[DogOnPorch]

That's why the deployments couldn't be longer than the 56 day maximum and would need to be done in a place where the ships were near a maintenance facility. When the Corner Brook was in the North Sea last year, that wasn't a problem. There are civilian ships that we can contract to maintain the subs if necessary also. We do the same thing to transport equipment.

Which is a (poor) solution as long as enemy submarines aren't a factor.

[M.Dancer]

Which is a (poor) solution as long as enemy submarines aren't a factor.

Or if going far is an option...in other words, patrolling off the coast of Somalia ...

[Smallc]

Or if going far is an option...in other words, patrolling off the coast of Somalia ...

Subs would be far less useful than helicopter carrying frigates and destroyers in that situation.

[Smallc]

Which is a (poor) solution as long as enemy submarines aren't a factor.

So how much should we be spending? Honestly, I'm not sure what some people expect.

[DogOnPorch]

Subs would be far less useful than helicopter carrying frigates and destroyers in that situation.

Which brings up BC-2004s question...what's the mission? I don't think we're even sure.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's why the deployments couldn't be longer than the 56 day maximum and would need to be done in a place where the ships were near a maintenance facility. When the Corner Brook was in the North Sea last year, that wasn't a problem. There are civilian ships that we can contract to maintain the subs if necessary also. We do the same thing to transport equipment.

It's not that simple....submarines are complex and have many subsystems that "civilian ships" cannot maintain...it's not like fixing any other diesel-electric train. You can't FedEx a MK48 torpedo. Sonar and fire control systems are specialized.

Sending crews to sea again with a half-assed approach will yield poor results and more down time.

[M.Dancer]

Subs would be far less useful than helicopter carrying frigates and destroyers in that situation.

Frigates and destroyers make very poor clandestine observation platforms.

I should add though, frigates make much better sovereignty assertion platforms than aging obsolete subs...

Edited February 23, 2010 by M.Dancer

[DogOnPorch]

So how much should we be spending? Honestly, I'm not sure what some people expect.

See previous response re: what's the mission?

[bush_cheney2004]

So how much should we be spending? Honestly, I'm not sure what some people expect.

People expect a complete vertical solution that supports a defined mission and platform life cycle....not just hobby subs that were sitting on the Used Sub car lot.

[M.Dancer]

So how much should we be spending? Honestly, I'm not sure what some people expect.

Less bullshit.

Sorry, That wasn't directed at you. I mean less bullshit, like refitting the Cf 18....think Seaking...yes there isn't an original part on them...they were once great, but now?

the CF 18 should have been replaced 10 years ago...

At one point we were considring nuclear subs. Both the French and the British had models we wanted....instead we went cheapo and that's what we got...

Edited February 23, 2010 by M.Dancer

[DogOnPorch]

People expect a complete vertical solution that supports a defined mission and platform life cycle....not just hobby subs that were sitting on the Used Sub car lot.

Submarines only have two uses in warfare...crippling enemy shipping and carrying your biggest last-ditch stick. Civilian uses are quite limited...a transport for refugees perhaps.

Edited February 23, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Smallc]

Which brings up BC-2004s question...what's the mission? I don't think we're even sure.

I've already said, the primary mission is fisheries and sovereignty patrols. The mission does involve some overseas work, but not much. Overseas work may include a month long deployment as part of a standing NATO group, longer if there was a country in the group with the facilities to maintain and restock our sub.

[Smallc]

Less bullshit.

So you're going to stop posting in most topics then, I assume? Answer a question or don't bother to reply to it.

[bush_cheney2004]

I've already said, the primary mission is fisheries and sovereignty patrols.

OK...lets break that down....fisheries: What does that mean....detection, enforcement, interdiction....what? And how....from the weather deck of a submarine? Let me tell you from experience that one of the last places a submarine wants to be is around drag lines and trawler nets.

Edited February 23, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

I've already said, the primary mission is fisheries and sovereignty patrols. The mission does involve some overseas work, but not much. Overseas work may include a month long deployment as part of a standing NATO group, longer if there was a country in the group with the facilities to maintain and restock our sub.

Which only amounts to a hill of beans if you're willing to yell...

Torpedo Los!!!

...over the ship intercom.

[Smallc]

OK...lets break that down....fisheries: What does that mean....detection, enforcement, interdiction....what? Let me tell you from experience that one of the last places a submarine wants to be is around drag lines and trawler nets.

That's what Canada has always used submarines for. That is probably the primary reason for having them.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's what Canada has always used submarines for. That is probably the primary reason for having them.

That's not true....Canada has deployed submarines for more traditional missions in the past.

[Smallc]

The DND website says that some of the primary missions are fisheries, environment, and immigration patrols. The subs are also a deterrence measure.

[M.Dancer]

So you're going to stop posting in most topics then, I assume? Answer a question or don't bother to reply to it.

Tsk tsk....a little over sensitive are we?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=15920&view=findpost&p=512623

[Smallc]

That's not true....Canada has deployed submarines for more traditional missions in the past.

Yes they have, and they'll continue to, but we have always used them for a variety of stealth applications, including fisheries patrol.

[DogOnPorch]

That's what Canada has always used submarines for. That is probably the primary reason for having them.

Submarines are silent hunters...to surface in the presence of an enemy destroyer is certain death. Getting rammed by a large factory ship or fishing trawler is also to be avoided. Unless we are going to be torpedoing trawlers, their uses are less than limited.

[M.Dancer]

I've already said, the primary mission is fisheries and sovereignty patrols.

Frigates and canoes are better at that.