Is it time Federalize/Nationalize Minimum Wage?

[August1991]

Now you are talking nonsense. All I am saying is Ontario is economically imbalanced to its US neighbor states. If you want a global economy you have to act like a global economy. That means being competitive locally and globally. All minimum wage is doing is overinflating retail prices and stealing money from those who do real work.

My point whowhere was simply to say what you say. If the government arbitrarily raises the price of something, more people will want to sell it, and fewer people will want to buy it. Some people will be priced out of the market.

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Your thread title is "Is it time Federalize/Nationalize Minimum Wage?" I assume that you want the federal government to fix the minimum wage. Or was your thread title meant to be a sarcastic rhetorical question?

[whowhere]

My point whowhere was simply to say what you say. If the government arbitrarily raises the price of something, more people will want to sell it, and fewer people will want to buy it. Some people will be priced out of the market.

----

Your thread title is "Is it time Federalize/Nationalize Minimum Wage?" I assume that you want the federal government to fix the minimum wage. Or was your thread title meant to be a sarcastic rhetorical question?

Ontario is a self centered, self rightous province that requires a beating for its governance and attitudes. For years Ontario has exploited immigrants to Canada and used them to pump out products destined for the United States. Alot of Garbage people have infested the Ontario Government and this left wing agenda to jack up minimum wage by 3.40 is criminal and is nothing more than a way to pick the pockets of those who aspire to real employment. Ontario is so corrupt that it used to be 1 in 10 jobs was through an employment agency, now its 1 in 4, so good luck thinking you have leverage to negotiate higher wages within a Corrupt province.

The US congress has enacted minimum legislation, Canada's parliament can do the same. The argument to relocate to another province and believe your fortunes will change is lame. Our economy is tied to the US, and many US companies are in Canada. If a US company pays a Canadian an Equivalent Wage to an American, the Canadian is worse off because his take home pay is being cheated from him by left wing do gooders.

[bloodyminded]

Ontario is a self centered, self rightous province that requires a beating for its governance and attitudes. For years Ontario has exploited immigrants to Canada and used them to pump out products destined for the United States. Alot of Garbage people have infested the Ontario Government and this left wing agenda to jack up minimum wage by 3.40 is criminal and is nothing more than a way to pick the pockets of those who aspire to real employment. Ontario is so corrupt that it used to be 1 in 10 jobs was through an employment agency, now its 1 in 4, so good luck thinking you have leverage to negotiate higher wages within a Corrupt province.

The US congress has enacted minimum legislation, Canada's parliament can do the same. The argument to relocate to another province and believe your fortunes will change is lame. Our economy is tied to the US, and many US companies are in Canada. If a US company pays a Canadian an Equivalent Wage to an American, the Canadian is worse off because his take home pay is being cheated from him by left wing do gooders.

"The left! The left! The left!"

Take up a new hobby. This amusing hysteria about some monstrous entity called "the left"--an obssession among only some very hardcore rightists who read reactionary knuckledraggers exclusive to everything else--is...well, boring.

It's a Cold War/Communist Scare hangover.

Edited February 24, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Renegade]

I don`t think it`s fair. Most people, I would say, don`t want to turn back the clock to the days of serfdom either. Wealth and power accumulates naturally. If you want to get rid of the minimum wage, then you should also get rid of inheritances and the other advantages that the wealthy pass on.

Let`s have everybody start out at exactly the same level, hmmm ? That`s mathematically fair too. Do you like the idea ?

You don't think it is fair. I do. I never stated I though everyone should start at the same place. It is not just wealth that differentiate where people start from. Some people are born smart, some dumb, some beautiful, some ugly. They wealthy have every right to pass on their wealth to whomever they choose.

Who exactly created this concept that all people should be equalized?

[Renegade]

You know, I just hated when someone says that people should move to find work. If they don't have a job then there's lack or shortgage of money to move. It all depends were you live, large cities have more opportunites to find work, small towns and cities, especially the large unemployment, it isn't that easy. Yeah alot of them are being retrained for future jobs, but that's the future and the jobs aren't there and you have the over 50 that no one wants to hire.

I'm not out to solve their problems for them. Each specfic situation is differnt, but I am satisified that we exist in an environment where individuals have the tools to better their conditions. If they don't have the money to move, flip burgers at two jobs while you save up.

You know when I was a kid, I used to shovel snow from driveways for a couple of bucks. It probably worked ot to less than the minimium wage at the time. Today, I can't find anyone who would shovel my driveway for less than $20 an hour. My guess is that welfare and social services are at a high enough level that there is not sufficient incentive to induce people to take some unskilled jobs. The net result is that there are quite a few jobs which, if the labour rate were lower, I would contract out, but I end up just doing myself. So in the end we end up with an economic enfironment where those who work, work twice as hard as they woudl like, and those who have labour capacity, sit idle.

[EyesWideOpen]

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09extension.shtml

These are figures are generated by the US government. Anyone have Stats generated by the Canadian Government? Get the calculator out and multiply 7.25 US minimum wage X 40 and you will get 15000. An individual working in the US for minimum wage would NOT be considered in poverty.

Would or Could the same be said about someone in Canada?

these are the most recent figures I could find with a VERY quick google search

http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fs_lic01.htm

If we take the figure of a single person living in a community of 30,000-99,999 people, according to these figures that would calculate to an hourly wage of about $8.21

"A family of four living in a very large Canadian city with an income (after transfers and before taxes) of less than $35,455 in 2001, would have been living below the poverty line" that's slightly more than $18 an hour (split that between two wage earners if you wish)

It says the table uses a "1992 base"

sobering, non?

Edited February 24, 2010 by EyesWideOpen

[whowhere]

these are the most recent figures I could find with a VERY quick google search

http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fs_lic01.htm

If we take the figure of a single person living in a community of 30,000-99,999 people, according to these figures that would calculate to an hourly wage of about $8.21

"A family of four living in a very large Canadian city with an income (after transfers and before taxes) of less than $35,455 in 2001, would have been living below the poverty line" that's slightly more than $18 an hour (split that between two wage earners if you wish)

It says the table uses a "1992 base"

sobering, non?

http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/economic_security/poverty/lico_06.htm

you should be looking at the 2006 chart. In anycase why does Canada have a poverty line that is twice the United States? Obviously because Canadians are strangled by High Taxes and a gouging minimum wage which inflates Retail prices. We supposedly have free trade with the US, but try driving down to the US to a wholesaler and purchase Gasoline, foods, and whatever else and see what happens to you at the border.

If an American buys a Big Mac Combo for $4.00 and in Canada you pay $8.00 Should that make Canadians feel better?

[DrGreenthumb]

I don`t think it`s fair. Most people, I would say, don`t want to turn back the clock to the days of serfdom either. Wealth and power accumulates naturally. If you want to get rid of the minimum wage, then you should also get rid of inheritances and the other advantages that the wealthy pass on.

Let`s have everybody start out at exactly the same level, hmmm ? That`s mathematically fair too. Do you like the idea ?

Don't you just love how Conservative types like to portray themselves as people who have worked their way up from the bottom, conveniently forgetting that they started out with a nice trust fund, or inherited a farm, or business from their parents, or grandparents. It is pretty dishonest to assert that everyone has the same opportunities for success.

[bloodyminded]

Don't you just love how Conservative types like to portray themselves as people who have worked their way up from the bottom, conveniently forgetting that they started out with a nice trust fund, or inherited a farm, or business from their parents, or grandparents. It is pretty dishonest to assert that everyone has the same opportunities for success.

All I can say is that I've noticed something interesting: every conservative I've debated on this type of topic--I mean with virtually zero exceptions--has informed me how poor they once were, and that they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps."

There's no way to prove that they're lying, of course. But it's obvious enough that most of them are.

[ToadBrother]

All I can say is that I've noticed something interesting: every conservative I've debated on this type of topic--I mean with virtually zero exceptions--has informed me how poor they once were, and that they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps."

There's no way to prove that they're lying, of course. But it's obvious enough that most of them are.

It doesn't help them anyways. If the current system allows rags-to-riches stories, then the only justification for someone on the riches end of the story to promote Libertarian-styled ideologies is so that they can withdraw the financial and economic support from the very system that allowed them to get where they were. These guys I can actually understand, since the position is based entirely off of greed. What I can never understand is the poor Libertarian, seeking to institute a political system that would do them harm. Just look at all the wingnuts in the Tea Bagger.. er Party movement down in the States. Most of these folks are middle class people who could be substantially harmed if the government was forced out of the social services business.

Edited February 24, 2010 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

And Ontario should not dictate minimum wage that is 3.00 more than neighboring US states. If minimum wage workers want to earn more as you say they should command more on their own. Contrary to what do gooders think, this $3.00 is being raped out of the consumers everytime they go to the grocery store, hardware store, whereever, translating into less money for other things. Why should consumers be forced to subsidize the lazy and inept of society.

Minimum wage in Ontario has nothing to do with what's being done in the States. What company is going to move to the states due to minimum wage that wasn't already leaving Ontario to begin with? And if they leave Ontario, they're probably going to Asia where they can pay people a dollar a day, not New York or Michigan. Minimum wage mostly affects part time work like fast food joints or grocery stores and they're always hiring and those are jobs that simply can't be moved. Whoever said it, no, paying people 10 bucks an hour doesn't cause grocery stores of mcdonalds to "rape" the customer, they just cut a position here or there. It's not like anyone notices anyway. Turnover is so high at those places in the first place because it's mostly high school kids trying to save for university. The economist has what is called the Big Mac Index. They use the price of a big mac to determine the cost of living in major urban centres. Toronto is the cheapest and has remained the cheapest despite those wage increases. In the last 3-4 years the Cost of Living index hasn't really shot up all that much and when it has it's been contributed to the only thing that's gone up which has been the cost of oil.

Listen, Ontario's job woes haven't been caused by minimum wage. They've been caused because auto workers make, including benefits, about $85/hr, not 10. I'd like to see how big a percentage of recent job losses the auto sector makes. As for Ontario being economically stupid, we've been lowering corporate taxes, tax credits for new investment, tax credits for green manufacturing, the HST which makes it easier and cheaper for companies to pay tax, and have had retraining programmes in an attempt to move Ontario towards an ideas based economy which is about the only way we can compete in a globalized market. If that's stupid, please, elaborate further.

Edited February 24, 2010 by nicky10013

[whowhere]

Minimum wage in Ontario has nothing to do with what's being done in the States. What company is going to move to the states due to minimum wage that wasn't already leaving Ontario to begin with? And if they leave Ontario, they're probably going to Asia where they can pay people a dollar a day, not New York or Michigan. Minimum wage mostly affects part time work like fast food joints or grocery stores and they're always hiring and those are jobs that simply can't be moved. Whoever said it, no, paying people 10 bucks an hour doesn't cause grocery stores of mcdonalds to "rape" the customer, they just cut a position here or there. It's not like anyone notices anyway. Turnover is so high at those places in the first place because it's mostly high school kids trying to save for university. The economist has what is called the Big Mac Index. They use the price of a big mac to determine the cost of living in major urban centres. Toronto is the cheapest and has remained the cheapest despite those wage increases. In the last 3-4 years the Cost of Living index hasn't really shot up all that much and when it has it's been contributed to the only thing that's gone up which has been the cost of oil.

Listen, Ontario's job woes haven't been caused by minimum wage. They've been caused because auto workers make, including benefits, about $85/hr, not 10. I'd like to see how big a percentage of recent job losses the auto sector makes. As for Ontario being economically stupid, we've been lowering corporate taxes, tax credits for new investment, tax credits for green manufacturing, the HST which makes it easier and cheaper for companies to pay tax, and have had retraining programmes in an attempt to move Ontario towards an ideas based economy which is about the only way we can compete in a globalized market. If that's stupid, please, elaborate further.

In your post you prove my point. Ontario consumers are a captive audience to the Ontario liberal left agenda to pillage and plunder the pockets of people not working in Retail or fast food. Yes, Retailers/Grocers/Gas Stations have passed on their labour costs in the form of higher prices. I have been to the US and I see difference. Actually the best guage is to go see what a walmart in the US is selling something for then come up to Canada. You will see a 30 to 40 percent price difference, a slap to the face to the Ontario Consumer.

The Governoring Party of Canada has a responsibility to Canada's economy that includes ensuring Canada is on the same footing Globally. Canada's main trading partner is the US. Many companies in Canada are branches of US companies. As I said, A US company may be paying A canadian worker an equivalent wage to a US worker but that money is being raped out of them when they go and spend that money on inflated retail prices.

The US has minimum wage legislation, Canada could enact a similar law.

Consumer spending is important to an economy, having it taken away by the left do gooders is an insult to global economics and an insult to the lifestyles of people in ontario. Why should Ontario workers be forced to subsidize the Retail/fast food sector?

[bloodyminded]

In your post you prove my point. Ontario consumers are a captive audience to the Ontario liberal left agenda to pillage and plunder the pockets of people not working in Retail or fast food. Yes, Retailers/Grocers/Gas Stations have passed on their labour costs in the form of higher prices.

Yes, I'm getting so sick of those fat-cat WalMart and McDonald's workers who get everything they want.

[ToadBrother]

The US has minimum wage legislation, Canada could enact a similar law.

Not without the co-operation of the provinces it couldn't. The constitution makes it very clear that labour laws are strictly in the arena of provincial responsibility. That means the Feds would have to strike deals with the Provinces, and the only reason I can see the Provinces going along with it is if the Feds were to give something in exchange for them reducing or eliminating that particular responsibility. Since the Feds certainly don't have the money or resources currently to bribe the rest of Confederation into your scheme, it ain't gonna happen.

Oh, and this suggests you're quite wrong about US minimum wages:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Edited February 24, 2010 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

In your post you prove my point. Ontario consumers are a captive audience to the Ontario liberal left agenda to pillage and plunder the pockets of people not working in Retail or fast food. Yes, Retailers/Grocers/Gas Stations have passed on their labour costs in the form of higher prices. I have been to the US and I see difference. Actually the best guage is to go see what a walmart in the US is selling something for then come up to Canada. You will see a 30 to 40 percent price difference, a slap to the face to the Ontario Consumer.

The Governoring Party of Canada has a responsibility to Canada's economy that includes ensuring Canada is on the same footing Globally. Canada's main trading partner is the US. Many companies in Canada are branches of US companies. As I said, A US company may be paying A canadian worker an equivalent wage to a US worker but that money is being raped out of them when they go and spend that money on inflated retail prices.

The US has minimum wage legislation, Canada could enact a similar law.

Consumer spending is important to an economy, having it taken away by the left do gooders is an insult to global economics and an insult to the lifestyles of people in ontario. Why should Ontario workers be forced to subsidize the Retail/fast food sector?

People don't pay more, that's my point. Cost of living hasn't really gone up, only by oil. We were in a state of deflation over the summer. Who exactly is getting raped here?

Firstly, things aren't 30% cheaper in the states. I have family there and am down all the time. That just doesn't fly. Is it a bit cheaper? Sure, but that has more to do with currency differences and shipping costs than it does with minimum wage.

Also, consumer spending hasn't been taken away by the "left do gooders." Have sales been down? Yes. Is it because of minimum wage? No, you'd have to be an idiot to think so. Sorry sir, you're out to lunch.

[nicky10013]

Yes, I'm getting so sick of those fat-cat WalMart and McDonald's workers who get everything they want.

How dare we have to pay $1.99 for tube socks. Easily 40% too much

[Michael Hardner]

You don't think it is fair. I do. I never stated I though everyone should start at the same place. It is not just wealth that differentiate where people start from. Some people are born smart, some dumb, some beautiful, some ugly. They wealthy have every right to pass on their wealth to whomever they choose.

Who exactly created this concept that all people should be equalized?

Check my quote, though. I said that it didn't lead to a fair society, which means that it will lead to a society with even more disparity than we have now. Think about the 18th century - do you think it offered citizens the best chance to get ahead and rise to the top ?

You didn't state that everyone should start at the same place - but I submitted that it would be consistent with the rest of your philosophy to do that. Yes, some are born smart and some ugly. Some are born with billions to control the lives of others, and others should be born slaves, basically, according to you.

Who created the concept that all people should be equalized ? The idea that they are equal at birth, and deserve the same chance to pursue happiness came from this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

[Michael Hardner]

Don't you just love how Conservative types like to portray themselves as people who have worked their way up from the bottom, conveniently forgetting that they started out with a nice trust fund, or inherited a farm, or business from their parents, or grandparents. It is pretty dishonest to assert that everyone has the same opportunities for success.

Even better is the way that starting a lemonade stand is equated to running a multinational business that affects millions of lives, and the environment as well.

[Michael Hardner]

You know when I was a kid, I used to shovel snow from driveways for a couple of bucks. It probably worked ot to less than the minimium wage at the time. Today, I can't find anyone who would shovel my driveway for less than $20 an hour. My guess is that welfare and social services are at a high enough level that there is not sufficient incentive to induce people to take some unskilled jobs. The net result is that there are quite a few jobs which, if the labour rate were lower, I would contract out, but I end up just doing myself. So in the end we end up with an economic enfironment where those who work, work twice as hard as they woudl like, and those who have labour capacity, sit idle.

Who would take a job a lower than minimum wage if you can't find a common laborer at $20/hr ?

[Renegade]

Check my quote, though. I said that it didn't lead to a fair society, which means that it will lead to a society with even more disparity than we have now. Think about the 18th century - do you think it offered citizens the best chance to get ahead and rise to the top ?

But you have layered your own interpretation on what a "fair society" is. I don't have an issue with dipariy, and I don't agree that less disparity means more "fairness". IMV, what people are entitled to is as you have quoted: "certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.". I certainly don't agree that they are entitled that the government or society provide them the "best chance to get ahead and rise to the top". That is up to them to secure for themselves.

You didn't state that everyone should start at the same place - but I submitted that it would be consistent with the rest of your philosophy to do that. Yes, some are born smart and some ugly. Some are born with billions to control the lives of others, and others should be born slaves, basically, according to you.

Maybe it would be better if you didn't try and extrapolate my philosophy since you are only guessing in any case and it is likely to be inaccurate. Yes some people are born with advantages and other are not. I believe that people are born with some specfic rights which they maintain through their lives. I'm really not sure how you have extrapolated that I believe that they should be born into slavery. Being born into Slavery would imply that a person doesn't own their own body at birth. This is completely contridactory to my beliefs.

Who created the concept that all people should be equalized ? The idea that they are equal at birth, and deserve the same chance to pursue happiness came from this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Yes, and I'm fine with that. That all men are created equal means that no one is surperior to the other and all are treated equally, the ugly, the beautiful, the rich and the poor. It says that people are inherently equal. It doesn't say that we should try to equalize what we percieve as a lack of equality

Edited February 25, 2010 by Renegade

[Renegade]

Who would take a job a lower than minimum wage if you can't find a common laborer at $20/hr ?

It is a good question. Perhaps there are some, but I can't find them. If my experience is reflective and people won't work for low wages, why even bother with a minimium wage?

Perhaps it makes more economic sense to import low-wage temporary labour when there seems to be a scarecity domestically.

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe it would be better if you didn't try and extrapolate my philosophy since you are only guessing in any case and it is likely to be inaccurate. Yes some people are born with advantages and other are not. I believe that people are born with some specfic rights which they maintain through their lives. I'm really not sure how you have extrapolated that I believe that they should be born into slavery. Being born into Slavery would imply that a person doesn't own their own body at birth. This is completely contridactory to my beliefs.

Ok, effectively some should be born into slavery. That is, some should be born into wealth and some unlucky souls should be born into poverty.

Yes, and I'm fine with that. That all men are created equal means that no one is surperior to the other and all are treated equally, the ugly, the beautiful, the rich and the poor. It says that people are inherently equal. It doesn't say that we should try to equalize what we percieve as a lack of equality

The pursuit of happiness is difficult when powerful groups control the market, the means of production, wages and the like don't you think ? Of course, the poor will get their reward in heaven.

[Michael Hardner]

It is a good question. Perhaps there are some, but I can't find them. If my experience is reflective and people won't work for low wages, why even bother with a minimium wage?

To protect people from making foolish decisions that they will affect others. We do this with finance (interest rate limits), medicine (make it illegal to make false claims), and other aspects of life too.

Perhaps it makes more economic sense to import low-wage temporary labour when there seems to be a scarecity domestically.

We already do this, for agriculture as an example.

[Renegade]

Ok, effectively some should be born into slavery. That is, some should be born into wealth and some unlucky souls should be born into poverty.

Yes some are born rich and some are born poor. I don't have an issue with that.

The pursuit of happiness is difficult when powerful groups control the market, the means of production, wages and the like don't you think ? Of course, the poor will get their reward in heaven.

Difficult? Possibly. So what? No one is promised an easy life.

[Renegade]

To protect people from making foolish decisions that they will affect others. We do this with finance (interest rate limits), medicine (make it illegal to make false claims), and other aspects of life too.

Please explain how it affect others wrt minimium wage. Do you agree that they are entitled to make foolish decisions which affect themselves?

We already do this, for agriculture as an example.

Yes I know. Perhaps we should not limit it only to certain industries.