Did you know?

[naomiglover]

We have never had a Canadian government, majority or minority, who has turned a blind eye to the injustices that has and continues to occur and who has so blatantly taken a side.

What a shame.

[Gabriel]

I watched one minute of the video and turned it off. It's offensive. Parroting the same garbage about "proportionality". Apparently the Jewish death toll was high enough to bring about a sense of equilibrium for this organization claiming to desire "justice" in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

As an aside, does anyone else find it hilarious when warped organizations give themselves names that don't reflect reality? This organization, "Canadians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East" are only concerned with the welfare of Palestinians. They don't care about peace or justice, and certainly don't care about any part of the Middle East aside from the Palestinian territories. If organizations like this want to be taken seriously, they need to turn up their honesty gauges.

Another funny side note, when reviewing their "research papers", they have this funny banner of images at the top that seems so out-of-place. From a picture of Netanyahu, to Obama, to a military fighter jet. Check it out, it's hilarious.

Link to a random pointless article that perhaps two people have read.

[M.Dancer]

We have never had a Canadian government, majority or minority, who has turned a blind eye to the injustices that has and continues to occur and who has so blatantly taken a side.

Yes we have. We have blatnetntly taken many sides. What we haven't done though is taken both sides.

Three cheers for us!

[ToadBrother]

As an aside, does anyone else find it hilarious when warped organizations give themselves names that don't reflect reality? This organization, "Canadians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East" are only concerned with the welfare of Palestinians. They don't care about peace or justice, and certainly don't care about any part of the Middle East aside from the Palestinian territories. If organizations like this want to be taken seriously, they need to turn up their honesty gauges.

As Madeline Albright famously said, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They, or more correctly, the absurd, corrupt, violent people they keep putting in power, do everything possible to assure the hawks in Israel get into power and stay in power, then everyone moans and whines and wrings their hands about those evil Israelies. The Palestinians as a people could stop this right now by revolting, throwing out the terrorists they keep electing into power, and making peace. They ain't gonna get back Jerusalem ever. When their Arab pals decided to make war on Israel, they basically lost any reasonable ability to make any such demand.

The Israeli-Palestinian dispute has to be the first dispute in history where losers of a failed war that they in large part were responsible for starting feel that they have either the legal or moral right to demand that everyone make-believe the war never happened. That ain't the way it works. Germany ain't getting Danzig back, Japan ain't getting Sakhalin back, and the Palestinians and Jordanians ain't getting East Jerusalem back.

There's a lesson here. Don't make war on people that can beat you.

Edited February 4, 2010 by ToadBrother

[segnosaur]

I watched one minute of the video and turned it off. It's offensive. Parroting the same garbage about "proportionality".

Yeah, gotta agree here... the video was blatantly one sided, chalked full of pro-Palestinian propaganda, and a total waste of time.

You know, I do feel sorry for the truly innocent Palestinians. However, lets consider some of the relevant facts:

- Israel has been subject to various terrorist activities for decades, including rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings

- The Gaza strip is controlled by Hamas (a group with the openly declared goal of the elimination of the state of Israel) was voted into power by the residents of the Gaza

- Gaza television continually shows TV shows oriented towards Children that have anti-Israeli messages (like Tomorrow's pioneers)

- During the military actions on the Gaza strip, Hamas was actually using human shields (for example, they were stationing soldiers within civilian hospitals... See: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/blog/gaza-er-hamas-hiding-in-shifa-hospital/4086/)

Given the fact that Israel was the recipient of terrorist attacks from an area that was run by a hostile organization that had popular public support, why exactly should Israel just sit back and take whatever deaths have occured?

[Gabriel]

Yeah, gotta agree here... the video was blatantly one sided, chalked full of pro-Palestinian propaganda, and a total waste of time.

You know, I do feel sorry for the truly innocent Palestinians. However, lets consider some of the relevant facts:

- Israel has been subject to various terrorist activities for decades, including rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings

- The Gaza strip is controlled by Hamas (a group with the openly declared goal of the elimination of the state of Israel) was voted into power by the residents of the Gaza

- Gaza television continually shows TV shows oriented towards Children that have anti-Israeli messages (like Tomorrow's pioneers)

- During the military actions on the Gaza strip, Hamas was actually using human shields (for example, they were stationing soldiers within civilian hospitals... See: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/blog/gaza-er-hamas-hiding-in-shifa-hospital/4086/)

Given the fact that Israel was the recipient of terrorist attacks from an area that was run by a hostile organization that had popular public support, why exactly should Israel just sit back and take whatever deaths have occured?

All valid points. Obviously this subject has the potential to become much broader in scope, so I'm trying to keep it somewhat narrow. There is no doubt that the recent Israel military operations in Gaza are connected to much broader issues regarding the I/P conflict. One narrow beef I have with the one minute of that video that I watched was how body count means anything? Is it 'unfair' that only 13 Israelis died? A comparison of the body count between the two opposing sides isn't evidence of anything wrong happening. Is Israel only permitted to engage in defencive operations up to a point, and then wait for more of its citizens to be killed before being legally permitted to continue? Of course not. You engage in military activities until the threat is reasonably minimized. I'm gonna stop talking about this before I get too pissed of. The OP, naomiglover, seriously isn't worth our time.

[Gabriel]

As Madeline Albright famously said, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They, or more correctly, the absurd, corrupt, violent people they keep putting in power, do everything possible to assure the hawks in Israel get into power and stay in power, then everyone moans and whines and wrings their hands about those evil Israelies. The Palestinians as a people could stop this right now by revolting, throwing out the terrorists they keep electing into power, and making peace. They ain't gonna get back Jerusalem ever. When their Arab pals decided to make war on Israel, they basically lost any reasonable ability to make any such demand.

The Israeli-Palestinian dispute has to be the first dispute in history where losers of a failed war that they in large part were responsible for starting feel that they have either the legal or moral right to demand that everyone make-believe the war never happened. That ain't the way it works. Germany ain't getting Danzig back, Japan ain't getting Sakhalin back, and the Palestinians and Jordanians ain't getting East Jerusalem back.

There's a lesson here. Don't make war on people that can beat you.

Well said. I concede, though, out of sympathy for the Palestinians, that it must be difficult for them to engage in activities that will bring about meaningful reform in their territories - especially Gaze. They are run by Hamas, hardly an organization that subscribes to values you and I believe in - the rule of law, tolerance of difference, and compliance with important international laws and conventions. I have doubts about to what degree the Palestinians actually believe in these values, but certainly there must be some that do. For those that do, I imagine they face harsh potential consequences if they speak out. We've all read the stories of Hamas engaging in political murders and torture. It's like a Wild West out there to some degree. Basically it sucks.

[segnosaur]

One narrow beef I have with the one minute of that video that I watched was how body count means anything? Is it 'unfair' that only 13 Israelis died? A comparison of the body count between the two opposing sides isn't evidence of anything wrong happening.

Yeah I gotta agree here.

Consider this: In World War 2, Japan had roughly 580,000 civilians killed. (This wasn't even including more than 2 million military deaths). There were 400,000 American casualties (including military and civilians), far less than the number of Japanese dead. So, does that make the U.S. "Wrong"? No, Japan was the aggressor in the war; America was justified in taking actions against an aggressive enemy.

Edited February 4, 2010 by segnosaur

[eyeball]

Yes we have. We have blatnetntly taken many sides. What we haven't done though is taken both sides.

Or not taken any side at all. But if we did that you'd be in here screaming that constitutes taking a side.

Oh yes you would.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah I gotta agree here.

Consider this: In World War 2, Japan had roughly 580,000 civilians killed. (This wasn't even including more than 2 million military deaths). There were 400,000 American casualties (including military and civilians), far less than the number of Japanese dead. So, does that make the U.S. "Wrong"? No, Japan was the aggressor in the war; America was justified in taking actions against an aggressive enemy.

Bah...to listen to naiomiglover and her ilk you'd think Gaza was the Battle of Stalingrad.

[M.Dancer]

Or not taken any side at all. But if we did that you'd be in here screaming that constitutes taking a side.

Oh yes you would.

Which side does Canada support regarding the territorial disputes between the Comoros and Madagascar?

Why do you allow yourself to come off like a clueless twit?

Edited February 5, 2010 by M.Dancer

[Muddy]

Your sitting in a bar . Some punk kid keeps trying to pick a fight with you. He badgers you ,pokes at you ,spills your beer. You out weigh the thug by fifty lbs . So you take it and you take it. Then he punches your Gal! You give give him an all out thrashing. Who`s fault is it that the guys in hospital? If the thug had a been a decent guy in the first place he would not be in hospital and his wife and kids would not be going hungry.

Now if the dolt gets released from hospital and does it again ,well who`s to blame?

[Muddy]

Your sitting in a bar . Some punk kid keeps trying to pick a fight with you. He badgers you ,pokes at you ,spills your beer. You out weigh the thug by fifty lbs . So you take it and you take it. Then he punches your Gal! You give give him an all out thrashing. Who`s fault is it that the guys in hospital? If the thug had a been a decent guy in the first place he would not be in hospital and his wife and kids would not be going hungry.

Now if the dolt gets released from hospital and does it again ,well who`s to blame?

[eyeball]

Why do you allow yourself to come off like a clueless twit?

%^&* you too.

[naomiglover]

Looks like the storm troopers never fail to make a showing when Israel's actions are criticized.

Your sitting in a bar . Some punk kid keeps trying to pick a fight with you. He badgers you ,pokes at you ,spills your beer.

Yes. Israel is sitting innocently in a bar, doing nothing.

[naomiglover]

The Harper government is actually going against Canada's official stance on Israel's occupation.

Canadian Policy on Key Issues in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Canada believes that both Israel and the Palestinian Authority must fully respect international human rights and humanitarian law which is key to ensuring the protection of civilians, and can contribute to the creation of a climate conducive to achieving a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement.

http://www.international.gc.ca/name-anmo/peace_process-processus_paix/canadian_policy-politique_canadienne.aspx?lang=eng#a06

[ToadBrother]

Looks like the storm troopers never fail to make a showing when Israel's actions are criticized.

Yes. Israel is sitting innocently in a bar, doing nothing.

It should serve as a reminder to anyone (as if history doesn't have enough). If you make war on someone and lose and they seize big chunks of your territory, you ain't very likely gonna get it back.

[naomiglover]

It should serve as a reminder to anyone (as if history doesn't have enough). If you make war on someone and lose and they seize big chunks of your territory, you ain't very likely gonna get it back.

Even if it was as black and white as you're trying to paint it; The whole world already knows and is going to continue to know that Israel is breaking international law with their actions. They know that Israel is violating human rights. Israel is the asshole that no one likes and some pretend to like. With its idealism and actions, Zionism makes Jews look bad. It's a good thing that the number of Jews who disagree with Zionism, continue to increase. Change can only come within.

Edited February 8, 2010 by naomiglover

[William Ashley]

Israel was stupid for what was done. Even former IDF soilders I've communicated with don't approve of the methods of the government in Israel.

You have to wonder why 32,000 cows and 1 million chickens needed to die - were they terrorist sympathizers providing eggs and milk to terrorists? Give me a break.

I find it pathetic Israel can't man a defence against rockets against such a small border.

In regards to the solders stationed in hospitals - who cares. You need to take into account the collateral damage when attacking civilian targets - a hospital is no somewhere, where there is an immediate threat to IDF solders. It is an inhumane act no matter how you look at it.

Those who are proponents that ever Gazan ought to be killed because they support HAMAS is a bogus argument. There are people even in Gaza that have tried to live in peace, but honestly Israel over reacts to single criminal acts, there religion tell them to overreact that is the reason the war goes on, because they instigate 100 fold what the Gazans do, and treat them like an enemy instead of a neighbor.

The small scale effort is just a mar on Israel. It is worse to torture than to kill. Oddly though the Jews God didn't say thou shall not torture or commit inhumane acts - they do however say Eye for Eye and under that premise israel has a whole lot of hate coming to it before it can be at peace in God's eyes, for all the harm they have done to their neighbors - and their animals.

You might want to ask why Israel sent missiles to Yaser Arafats home.

Israeli's arn't above God's laws, they are subject to them. An Israeli PM is not a messiah or prophet he does not speak for god. He speaks for Israeli's not for all Jews. Palastinians are justified under Jewish law to take life and limb from Israeli's.

Edited February 8, 2010 by William Ashley

[bush_cheney2004]

The Harper government is actually going against Canada's official stance on Israel's occupation.

?????

The "Harper government", by definition, is Canada's official stance.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The truth is that BOTH sides are out to lunch. They always have been and always will be. The truth is that this is an internal problem for the region and outside solutions are neither welcome nor warranted.

The first group to stop the killing CAN win international approval and support.

[ToadBrother]

Even if it was as black and white as you're trying to paint it;

It is that black and white. The Palestinians had the best deal they were ever going to get in 1949. They and their neighbors chose to make war, lost utterly, and now want Israel to make believe that there never was a war and that the Arabs didn't lose it utterly.

Jordan has figured it out. Egypt has figured it out. So why can't the rest of them?

The whole world already knows and is going to continue to know that Israel is breaking international law with their actions. They know that Israel is violating human rights.

And what, the Palestinians are having bake sales? Gimme a break.

Israel is the asshole that no one likes and some pretend to like.

I have no problem with them. I wish they'd declare Palestine a sovereign state, wait for the first rocket to cross border, invade en masse, rather than pussy footing around.

With its idealism and actions, Zionism makes Jews look bad. It's a good thing that the number of Jews who disagree with Zionism, continue to increase. Change can only come within.

Care to provide some evidence that Jews are tired of Zionism?

Edited February 8, 2010 by ToadBrother

[segnosaur]

Looks like the storm troopers never fail to make a showing when Israel's actions are criticized.

Your sitting in a bar . Some punk kid keeps trying to pick a fight with you. He badgers you ,pokes at you ,spills your beer.

Yes. Israel is sitting innocently in a bar, doing nothing.

Yeah, I guess naomiglover's response is not too suprising. Almost Pavlovian.

Nothing illustrates that someone (e.g. naomiglover) fails to understand issues as when they immediately label people who disagree as 'storm troopers'. (Of course, I could also point out how distasteful it is to use the term 'storm trooper' when dealing with an issue involving a Jewish state, considering the historical use of 'stormtrooper' in nazi Germany.)

The fact is, several issues were raised which illustrate continued Palestinian belligerence. Rather than actually try to deal with those issues, you go and insult anyone who might have a problem with you posting your one-sided video. Shows a lack of reasoning ability on your part. You DO realize that, rather than being able to convince us of the 'nobility' of the Palestinian cause, all you are doing is making us realize just how many Palestinian supporters are "useful idiots". Perhaps if you were able to actually state your case in a logical, rational manner, without relying on cheesy one-sided videos, and without resorting to insults you might actually be more convincing.

Edited February 8, 2010 by segnosaur

[segnosaur]

Israel was stupid for what was done. Even former IDF soilders I've communicated with don't approve of the methods of the government in Israel.

Ummm... you do realize that, even if we believed your claim, that doesn't necessarily mean that such disapproval is either A: Widespread (good chance that you just tend to 'hang out' with those who would disapprove), and B: correct.

I find it pathetic Israel can't man a defence against rockets against such a small border.

OK... I'll bite... Just what exactly do you think is an appropriate defense against rocket attacks? You seem to think there is some simple, non-violent solution to stop them, so please, lets hear it.

In regards to the solders stationed in hospitals - who cares. You need to take into account the collateral damage when attacking civilian targets - a hospital is no somewhere, where there is an immediate threat to IDF solders. It is an inhumane act no matter how you look at it.

I'm sorry, but this totally illustrates a lack of understanding of reality.

If you have Hamas soldiers hiding amongst the civilian population in places like hospitals, then the people to blame are Hamas. The Geneva convention specifically forbids the use of "human shields". Granted, war is never really 'civilized', but I think it speaks volumes about the morality of both sides when Hamas actually takes actions like that. (Also speaks volumes about you, when you're willing to justify the use of human shields.)

Those who are proponents that ever Gazan ought to be killed because they support HAMAS is a bogus argument. There are people even in Gaza that have tried to live in peace...

And as I've pointed out, I have sympathy for any Gaza resident who truly has tried to live in peace. Its too bad there aren't more of them, who might actually be willing to rise up, get rid of Hamas, and tell Israel "We don't want any more trouble".

So, why don't you tell us what exactly should be done? Just let Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups continue firing rockets, sending suicide bombers and engaging in sniper activity? Beg them "Please please Hamas be nice to us"?

...but honestly Israel over reacts to single criminal acts...

Ahem, "single criminal acts"? Since 2001, there have been over 8000 rocket attacks on Israel. Even during 2008, when Hamas supposedly agreed to a 'cease fire', there were still dozens of rocket and mortar attacks.

...there religion tell them to overreact...

Ummm... it does? Please point out the passages in the Old Testimant that makes "over reaction" necessary?

...that is the reason the war goes on, because they instigate 100 fold what the Gazans do...

Then why don't the Gazans do the smart thing, stop lobbing rockets into Israel, and see what happens?

...and treat them like an enemy instead of a neighbor.

Tell me, does your next-door neighbor routinely take shots at you and your house?

You might want to ask why Israel sent missiles to Yaser Arafats home.

Well, gee... the fact that Arafat was the head of a terrorist organization that engaged in suicide bombings might have something to do with it. Or how about the fact that even after he supposedly recognized the right of Israel to exist, he continued to incite Palestinians to engage in violence.

Israeli's arn't above God's laws, they are subject to them.

Problem is, there is no god. Sorry to break the news to you.

Palastinians are justified under Jewish law to take life and limb from Israeli's.

I see...

Does that include taking the life of children? (After all, those rockets that they keep lobbing into Israel aren't necessarily directed at military targets... they often hit schools, etc.

Edited February 8, 2010 by segnosaur

[segnosaur]

Even if it was as black and white as you're trying to paint it;

Does anyone else find it ironic that naomiglover is accusing someone else of believing the conflict is "black and white", when they themselves started the thread with a video that was completely one sided, and that totally ignored any transgressions that the Palestinians have engaged in?

With its idealism and actions, Zionism makes Jews look bad. It's a good thing that the number of Jews who disagree with Zionism, continue to increase. Change can only come within.

So, would you rather see one of the few modern, democratic states in the Middle east (i.e. Israel) eliminated, and replaced by a nation run by Hamas or Fatah, groups that have been, ahem, far from democratic (Hamas is known to kill political rivals within the Palestinian population and Fatah was widely seen to be corrupt, often run as a dictatorship)?

Edited February 8, 2010 by segnosaur