Canadian Government Guilty of Violating Khadr's Rights

[Gabriel]

Lets not use Dancers favourite line. "So what" doesnt cut it. I must assume that you believe everything that Bush told you. Intentionally depriving a person of sleep and waterboarding are forms of torture...its all a matter of degree.

That simply isn't true. According to that logic, arresting someone and putting them in a cell is also a form of torture. It's not a fundamental right of your to be permitted to sleep for ten hours every 24 hour cycle. There is obviously a point where sleep deprivation would constitute torture, and this is CLEARLY a subjective question, and one that is obviously in the hands of authorities (legal system, security agencies, etc). There is definitely no legal foundation for your claim that sleep deprivation is necessarily torture. There's definitely no reasonable foundation for it, either. You can't honestly tell me that you believe sleep deprivation for a couple of days constitutes torture, and then put physical abuse in the same category, regardless of "degree". Lastly, I'm definitely not some Bush fanboy.

[M.Dancer]

...perhaps you should step back from your constant confrontational nature and you just might understand that the reference point at this juncture is about Ghadr's trial whch has everything to do with the US SC and NOT the GC.

Have a great day...

The thread is about the CANADIAN Supreme court ruling....helps reading it avoid looking silly.

[Born Free]

American Woman - you made a post a few pages back linking some opinion pieces indicating that it is unlikely that Khadr would be convicted if returned to Canada. I think there's probably quite a bit of truth to this. At the very least, Khadr could expect a significantly lighter sentence in Canada. I ask folks out there who would dispute this, why do you think Khadr has been trying for years to come back to Canada? It's because he is aware of the leniency of the Canadian justice system. Although America, like Canada, is extremely lenient with many of its criminals, the odds are he'll get a tougher sentence down there. Khadr and his lawyers know that, and it's why they're tried for so long to come to Canada. Harper is also aware of this, and it's good that he has refused to try to return this piece of garbage back to Canada.

What do you think Khadr should be charged with here in Canada?.... assuming of course that the US authorities will back off from their current accusations.

[Gabriel]

I'm not sure why you would bother. You're speaking about a profession which has so expanded the condept of "rights" to the degree that clearly and obviously guilty killers are set free to punish the government for violating obscure technicalities of law. There is no doubt in my mind that if Adolph Hitler was found aliive in Canada, and the police didn't let him sleep on a comfortable bunk at regular intervals, or spoke rudely to him, or didn't ge thim his favorite cereal in the morning, the judges would be aghast at his mistreatment, order him released, and then let him sue the government for millions.

There is no sense of proportion or interest in justice among the legal profession or the laws which they write and which judges twist and expand. It is all about the phrasing and interpetation of laws, and who wins and who loses among the lawyers. Right and wrong are irrelevent, as is justice. If you "violate someone's rights" - however the learned judges are defining it this year - that person gets to go free. And nobody even knows what people's rights are now because they can change depending on any of a number of court cases active at any given moment.

The legal system is all a game played by layers, and the cases are about deciding the score. The higher the score, the more money a lawyer makes, and so, ultimately, the legal system is all about making money for lawyers. All else is just dross.

I agree 100%. While purporting to be defending "all of our rights", many defense lawyers, "human rights" advocates, etc, are simply hurting us. I understand and respect the importance of human rights, freedoms, the rule of law, and due process. But as a human being, how can you expect me not to be frustrated when so many of those on the left are crying for the enemy while claiming they're in defense of freedom? It's angering to see people whine about Khadr being "tortured" because he was sleep deprived. Watch the interview, read the memos, his life was saved by an American medic for god's sake! On the whole, I'm certain he's been very well taken of. The Hitler example is golden.

[Born Free]

The thread is about the CANADIAN Supreme court ruling....helps reading it avoid looking silly.

Now that we are past the Geneva Convention stuff that you are so well informed on and have discussed at length...the issue at hand is about Khadr getting a trial in the US. We already know what the Canadian SC ruled on and it had nothing to do with a trial for Khadr in the US.

Try to keep up.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Born Free

[Born Free]

I agree 100%. While purporting to be defending "all of our rights", many defense lawyers, "human rights" advocates, etc, are simply hurting us. I understand and respect the importance of human rights, freedoms, the rule of law, and due process. But as a human being, how can you expect me not to be frustrated when so many of those on the left are crying for the enemy while claiming they're in defense of freedom?

You seem to be trying to suck and blow at the same time...

Edited February 1, 2010 by Born Free

[Gabriel]

Unfortunately, the discrepancies are not slight. They will determine whether or not he was the only one capable of throwing the grenade.

I'm still unsure of what crime he should be charged with, though. Having been to afghanistan six times on behalf of the canadian forces (i'm a civilian, btw), I do believe frm my own eyes that we, NATO, are generally the good guys in this battle. But, this is a war theater and Khadr did nothing at his worst other than kill a member of an invading force. In the most respectable terms, that is the nature of war.

But how can Khadr be permitted to do so as a Canadian? He's not an Afghan national. Furthermore, our enemies in Afghanistan fight unlawfully. SO each and every one of them is a war criminal - not that I care much for the rules of war. It's kind of silly to put rules on how you can kill each other, especially when the rules are only adhered to by one side of the conflict - us and our allies. I also understand that it is silly to expect the enemy to abide by the conventional rules of war, as they would be annihilated. How can one put a law before his or her own life or success in a war? I don't expect the Taliban to rule out certain strategies of theirs because it might contravene some UN convention. Still, he is guilty of something along the lines of treason, as he is providing material support to terrorists as they murder us and our allies.

[M.Dancer]

Now that we are past the Geneva Convention stuff that you are so well informed on and have discussed at length...the issue at hand is about Khadr getting a trial in the US. We already know what the Canadian SC ruled on and it had nothing to do with a trial for Khadr in the US.

Try to keep up.

You do realize he ain't so important as to be tried by the SCOTUS?

[Gabriel]

You seem to be trying to suck and blow at the same time...

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Gabriel]

What do you think Khadr should be charged with here in Canada?.... assuming of course that the US authorities will back off from their current accusations.

Why speculate? He's going to be charged in the USA and the PMO has made it clear that they will not seek to repatriate Khadr. If he WAS returned to Canada, hypothetically of course, he should be charged with everything we can think of. From illegally fighting as part of some non-uninformed terrorist organization (a war crime) to providing material support to a terrorist organization to treason. Lay on as many charges as possible and relentlessly pursue them to give him the most lengthy sentence possible.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Gabriel

[Born Free]

You do realize he ain't so important as to be tried by the SCOTUS?

...I realize a lot Morris. Now yer just being silly....I suppose thats your only defnce now ... so be it...

In case you didnt know...It took a USSC ruling for Khader to be given the right to a trial.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Born Free

[Born Free]

Why speculate? He's going to be charged in the USA and the PMO has made it clear that they will not seek to repatriate Khadr. If he WAS returned to Canada, hypothetically of course, he should be charged with everything we can think of. From illegally fighting as part of some non-uninformed terrorist organization (a war crime) to providing material support to a terrorist organization to treason. Lay on as many charges as possible and relentlessly pursue them to give him the most lengthy sentence possible.

I'm not speculating. You are. You state that he should be charged with everything we can think of. So tell us what YOU are thinking of.

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman - you made a post a few pages back linking some opinion pieces indicating that it is unlikely that Khadr would be convicted if returned to Canada.

According to the OPs I cited, it sounded as if he wouldn't even be brought to trial if returned to Canada. And that was according to legal experts. I just don't understand that at all.

I think there's probably quite a bit of truth to this. At the very least, Khadr could expect a significantly lighter sentence in Canada. I ask folks out there who would dispute this, why do you think Khadr has been trying for years to come back to Canada? It's because he is aware of the leniency of the Canadian justice system. Although America, like Canada, is extremely lenient with many of its criminals, the odds are he'll get a tougher sentence down there. Khadr and his lawyers know that, and it's why they're tried for so long to come to Canada. Harper is also aware of this, and it's good that he has refused to try to return this piece of garbage back to Canada.

I think Harper has done the right thing too, under the circumstances. Khadr is accused of killing an American, by the U.S. military, so it stands to reason that he would be tried by the U.S./in the U.S.

The only way I can see Canada intervening is in regards to his being a child soldier, but as long as there are no charges being brought against his mother along those lines, that really couldn't happen.

Edited February 1, 2010 by American Woman

[Gabriel]

I'm not speculating. You are. You state that he should be charged with everything we can think of. So tell us what YOU are thinking of.

I'm really unsure what it is I've said that'd making you so contentious. You asked me to speculate on a hypothetical scenario, so I indulged your request. Holla back at me when you're not so upset and aren't compelled to make little snide remarks in every post of yours.

[Born Free]

I'm really unsure what it is I've said that'd making you so contentious. You asked me to speculate on a hypothetical scenario, so I indulged your request. Holla back at me when you're not so upset and aren't compelled to make little snide remarks in every post of yours.

I'm not upset. I was honestly asking what charges you believe should brought to bear on Khadr here in Canada given that you seem to have all the evidence in your back pocket.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Born Free

[eyeball]

But as a human being, how can you expect me not to be frustrated when so many of those on the left are crying for the enemy while claiming they're in defense of freedom?

Your frustration is perfectly mirrored by the frustration that stems from the never-enduing denial that the west did anything to provoke the so-called enemy - the fact people like you cry the root causes of this quagmire was all in defense of freedom is ironic to say the least.

[Gabriel]

I'm not upset. I was honestly asking what charges you believe should brought to bear on Khadr here in Canada given that you seem to have all the evidence in your back pocket.

Why do you insist on framing everything I've said in a hyperbolic way? Just because the evidence that's out there is convincing to a rational person that Khadr was indeed supporting our enemies doesn't mean I'm being some extremist by recognizing that reality. Come on, he comes from a terrorist family, he was captured on the battlefield fighting alongside the terrorists when he should've been in high school learning basic algebra, and has confessed to being a terrorist. I as well as other reasonable people are convinced of his guilt. I am not some right-wing extremist know-it-all because I acknowledge this.

Anyways, you're acting childish and you know it. I'm here to have a serious discussion, not bicker back and forth with little literary daggers.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Gabriel

[Gabriel]

Your frustration is perfectly mirrored by the frustration that stems from the never-enduing denial that the west did anything to provoke the so-called enemy - the fact people like you cry the root causes of this quagmire was all in defense of freedom is ironic to say the least.

I think we've had a similar discussion before, eyeball. If I recall correctly, you seem to think that the West has brought this conflict on itself through imperialism and other mean things we've done to the Arab/Muslim world. I imagine you also thing that our support for Israel is misguided and further exacerbates this problem, as we are supporting the theft of Arab/Muslim land. I completely reject your position, and think that heading down that direction would be a fatal derailing of this thread.

[Born Free]

I'm here to have a serious discussion, not bicker back and forth with little literary daggers.

I am too. I'm not bickering. I simply asked you a question. You seem to think that Canada had a bunch of evidence that Khadr is a terrorist. You dont know that. I appreciate that you have an opinion that he might be one. Perhaps he is.

I'm more interested in seeing if and when the US will be taking him to trial. He is their prisoner. Lets first see if he's found guilty in the US and of what before urging a trial here in Canada...

Edited February 1, 2010 by Born Free

[Born Free]

I think we've had a similar discussion before, eyeball. If I recall correctly, you seem to think that the West has brought this conflict on itself through imperialism and other mean things we've done to the Arab/Muslim world....

In part, that is indeed the case...

[Gabriel]

I am too. I'm not bickering. I simply asked you a question. You seem to think that Canada had a bunch of evidence that Khadr is a terrorist. You dont know that. I appreciate that you have an opinion that he might be one. Perhaps he is.

I'm more interested in seeing if and when the US will be taking him to trial. He is their prisoner. Lets first see if he's found guilty in the US and of what before urging a trial here in Canada...

We already know he will face trial in the USA. Consult this timeline of events. He's not coming to Canada. The SCOC didn't order the government to try to repatriate Khadr, and the government has been clear since day one that they have no intention of trying to bring Khadr back to Canada. Some of your questions have already been answered.

[Born Free]

We already know he will face trial in the USA.

I await it with baited breath...but I wont hold it...

[eyeball]

I think we've had a similar discussion before, eyeball. If I recall correctly, you seem to think that the West has brought this conflict on itself through imperialism and other mean things we've done to the Arab/Muslim world.

That's right, me and probably another 6 billion or so humans are quite capable of wielding Occam's Razor without getting so much as a scratch. I mean, look at how easy it was for you to articulate the kernel of truth at the core of this issue? You don't even believe it but nonetheless you aced it without even trying.

I imagine you also thing that our support for Israel is misguided and further exacerbates this problem, as we are supporting the theft of Arab/Muslim land. I completely reject your position, and think that heading down that direction would be a fatal derailing of this thread.

I spend a lot less time thinking about Israel than you imagine. If anything, our misguided interference throughout much of the Muslim world has exacerbated the problems Israel has.

Edited February 1, 2010 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

I await it with baited breath...but I wont hold it...

You have to wait....no other choice.

Khadr didn't go to Afghanistan to sell Girl Scout cookies.

[eyeball]

Khadr wasn't taken to Afghanistan to sell Girl Scout cookies.

There, that looks better.