Ignatieff calls for fewer skilled immigrants, more illiterates

[Army Guy]

When immigration comes up, the question I usually ask to silence opponents is: how do you intend to grow the country without it ?

Micheal what do you mean by "how do you intend to grow the country without it". I don't mean to put words in your mouth but are you suggesting that Canada can not grow without immigration form outside countires..I'm just trying to understand what your implying.

[Renegade]

Economic growth is generally regarded as a good thing, and overarching desire for economic growth is what sets our economies apart from hard socialist economies.

Michael, I'd like to understand why you have immediately drawn the conclusion that economic growth equates to population growth. Economic growth is also driven productivity increases. If our GDP grew by 50% but required a doubling of the population to do so, would that be better economically than a GDP growth of 10% with a stable population?

Edited January 26, 2010 by Renegade

[ToadBrother]

Micheal what do you mean by "how do you intend to grow the country without it". I don't mean to put words in your mouth but are you suggesting that Canada can not grow without immigration form outside countires..I'm just trying to understand what your implying.

Judging by birth rates, I'd say most industrialized countries have a pretty severe problem. Canada certainly isn't in rough shape like Japan or Spain, which have been posting negative population growth, but still, we have to accept the fact that Canadians aren't popping out children sufficient to assure long-term economic growth.

[Army Guy]

Michael, I'd like to understand why you have immediately drawn the conclusion that economic growth equates to population growth. Economic growth is also driven productivity increases. If our GDP grew by 50% but required a doubling of the population to do so, would that be better economically than a GDP growth of 10% with a stable population?

Actually, In a major study, the Economic Council of Canada summed up

the Canadian literature as follows: “There is little or no effect of immigration

on the per capita income of existing residents”

Also

Major studies in Canada, the United States, and Australia have found

that, as a fraction of GDP, the economic gains from immigration are minuscule—

certainly not large enough to justify maintaining a large immigration

program

My linkwww.fraserinstitute.org/

[Argus]

This is getting to have some fairly racist overtones to me.

Which merely demonstrates that you don't understand what racism is.

[Argus]

We'd need a link to the original statement, but from memory I think what we're discussing is family for existing immigrants, so these questions are beside the point aren't they ?

I think they're important with regard to the advisabilty of bringing in thousands more Haitians. And note you cannot make such a change just for Haitians. Once you make it for them you'll have to make it for all others. There's no justification for not doing so, and I think the courts would require it.

[Moonbox]

Judging by birth rates, I'd say most industrialized countries have a pretty severe problem. Canada certainly isn't in rough shape like Japan or Spain, which have been posting negative population growth, but still, we have to accept the fact that Canadians aren't popping out children sufficient to assure long-term economic growth.

The birth rate is certainly a problem. Bringing productive immigrants to Canada is a potential solution. Bringing unproductive, useless leeches on society is unfortunately NOT a solution, and there's enough evidence out there to support the possibility that our immigration policies are much too generous. The unemployment rate for new immigrants in Canada is something like twice as high as it is for native Canadians. That in itself is pretty damning.

[Riverwind]

Canada certainly isn't in rough shape like Japan or Spain, which have been posting negative population growth, but still, we have to accept the fact that Canadians aren't popping out children sufficient to assure long-term economic growth.

All economies will eventually have stop using population growth to create the illusion of economic growth. The sooner we make the transition to a slow growth economy with a stable population - the better.

[ZenOps]

Hey someone has to build the Mckenzie Gas pipeline (over one billion linear cubic feet of compressed natural gas per day)

Is your average PHD going to haul, weld pipe, and freeze his ass off in -45 degree weather North of Alberta where there isn't a town for a hundred miles?

Canada is still young, it needs infrastructure. Road, railroad, and now for sure pipeline workers.

I think what Ignatieff is suggesting is less PHD's, and MORE skilled trade workers (like welders)

Edited January 26, 2010 by ZenOps

[Argus]

Canada is still young, it needs infrastructure. Road, railroad, and now for sure pipeline workers.

Canada is one of the world's oldest and largest countries in terms of population.

I know a contractor with twenty five years of experience building and renovating homes all over central Canada and he says he never sees non-White immigrants on job sites. The only immigrants he sees are from southern and eastern Europe. I don't think that's because all contractors are racist but that people from the third world are simply not interested in the building trades.

Where do you think you're more likely to find pipe welders who want to work in the freezing cold building a pipeline; Haiti and Jamaica, or Russia and Poland?

[EyesWideOpen]

I think you should get over your fixation with skin pigmentation. It doesn't say anything flattering about you.

MY fixation?!??!

That's rich….unless you went up and asked these people where they were from, what basis are you using for your assumption that they are immigrants IF NOT skin colour?!?!?

Folks like you have made sure there are no statistics kept on crime or welfare by race or ethnicity. So I can only go by simple observation and exeprience.

I'm assuming you must have surveyed them since you can't back up any other of your statements, this one at least must have some basis in fact?!?!?

People like me?!?!? Wow, you're just fulla rash judgements, aren't ya?!?! You don't know me from Moses.

Is there no mindless cliche you won't dig up? In fact, all people on the planet are descended from tribes who moved one place or another repeatedly. I fail to see the relevance.

[Argus]

MY fixation?!??!

That's rich….unless you went up and asked these people where they were from, what basis are you using for your assumption that they are immigrants IF NOT skin colour?!?!?

Accent and dress for one. However, skin colour is actually a substantially accurate indication of immigration. Most non-whites, excluding aborigines, are either first generation immigrants, or their children.

People like me?!?!?

Politically correct lefties.

[EyesWideOpen]

Canada is one of the world's oldest and largest countries in terms of population.

I know a contractor with twenty five years of experience building and renovating homes all over central Canada and he says he never sees non-White immigrants on job sites. The only immigrants he sees are from southern and eastern Europe. I don't think that's because all contractors are racist but that people from the third world are simply not interested in the building trades.

There's a lot of truth to this...and we are crying for trades people and all the schooling incentives we've put out there to get today's youth interested in trades is not helping at all.

We need not only highly educated immigrants but SKILLED immigrants..and frankly unless we make it easy for them to bring their families too, which I think, is part of the thinking behind Ignatieff's proposed policy, they won't come.

[Michael Hardner]

I think they're important with regard to the advisabilty of bringing in thousands more Haitians. And note you cannot make such a change just for Haitians. Once you make it for them you'll have to make it for all others. There's no justification for not doing so, and I think the courts would require it.

The Haitians are being brought in for humanitarian reasons, not related to economic prospects.

[EyesWideOpen]

Accent and dress for one. However, skin colour is actually a substantially accurate indication of immigration. Most non-whites, excluding aborigines, are either first generation immigrants, or their children.

Politically correct lefties.

as I said, you make way too many assumptions, sir.

But that's ok...I think I've got your number now too.

[Renegade]

Judging by birth rates, I'd say most industrialized countries have a pretty severe problem. Canada certainly isn't in rough shape like Japan or Spain, which have been posting negative population growth, but still, we have to accept the fact that Canadians aren't popping out children sufficient to assure long-term economic growth.

ToadBrother, perhaps you can explain why population growth is necessary. Certainly stadard of living increases can be genrated through productivity increases even with declining or stable populations.

[ZenOps]

Of course immigrants from certain countries are going to have a rougher time.

Plop a French only speaking Quebecer with professional welding experience - in Alberta and he/she will probably not make as much money as an English speaking welder. Why? Everthing takes just a little bit longer to get things done.

Plop an Albertan stripper into a Montreal club and he/she will probably take a little bit longer to get established ((mentioned just for the sake of equality)

Thats not to say that it should not be done that way. Would a Chinese welder who has worked in a world class metal foundry be able to adjust quicker to a welders job than an African metal worker who still forges with an open pit fire and hammer? Probably, but good luck trying to get someone over here who already is already in a world class facility and content where they are.

Many an Nova Scotian has made their way to Alberta - Only to turn back when they can't handle the level of grunt work that is necessary in the oilpatch.

Canada would have a population growth of about 0.3% naturally, and 0.9% with immigration. 0.9% is pretty much on par with the US, we just require more immigrants to achieve it.

http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/populationgrow.htm

[Martin Chriton]

ToadBrother, perhaps you can explain why population growth is necessary. Certainly stadard of living increases can be genrated through productivity increases even with declining or stable populations.

It's a pyramid scheme. How do you expect to payout for all the retirees if there is no one paying into the system?

[Moonlight Graham]

Argus, no link for the opening post?

Edited January 26, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[Riverwind]

It's a pyramid scheme. How do you expect to payout for all the retirees if there is no one paying into the system?

Increase the retirement age and reduce benefits.

[JB Globe]

I bet you could go to every job site in Ottawa and not find a single Haitian.

Now see, you could have done some actual thinking, and/or reading before making a gross assumption, but you DECIDED to act like moron and use a "hunch" to justify your belief that Haitians are lazy.

For the sake of argument let's assume that your hunch is right that you couldn't find any Haitians on any job sites in Ottawa, that might have more to do with the fact over 90% of Haitians in Canada live in Quebec, than your uninformed opinion that Haitians are lazy and stupid.

You shouldn't be shocked by this - when you think with your emotions and not your head, more often than not you end up looking like a fool.

[Argus]

The Haitians are being brought in for humanitarian reasons, not related to economic prospects.

I see, and do you think we should bring over tens of thousands of illiterate, uneducated immigrants every time there is disaster somewhere in the world? We didn't when the Liberals were in power. Why should we do so now?

[Renegade]

It's a pyramid scheme. How do you expect to payout for all the retirees if there is no one paying into the system?

Just as RW suggested, collapse the pyramid. The earlier the better. Would you let a financial pyramid continue?

[Michael Hardner]

I see, and do you think we should bring over tens of thousands of illiterate, uneducated immigrants every time there is disaster somewhere in the world? We didn't when the Liberals were in power. Why should we do so now?

I guess that depends on the circumstances, doesn't it ?

[Martin Chriton]

Just as RW suggested, collapse the pyramid. The earlier the better. Would you let a financial pyramid continue?

What *I* would do and what a political party could get away with are two completely different things.