UFC's Lesnar berates Canadian health care...

[dizzy]

Which is exactly what you did, and why I responded in kind. I thought I made that clear, and I'm thinking I did. Guess it's only "relevant" when you're the one doing it, eh?

(You might want to look for your sense of humor --- you seem to have lost it between poking fun at Americans and having Canada being poked fun at. )

I'll laugh at anything that's funny, honey! If you're upset at the comment about international ignorance, know that really I meant it, but as a cute idiosyncrasy, kinda like how it's both sweet and annoying that canadians are so obsessively polite.

On the content aspect of your post, your retort to the experience of two of your compatriots lacks compassion for a well-established flaw with your system. And, while I haven't seen the results of their IQ tests, I can assure you that they are self-sufficient folks who own two homes free and clear, both more expensive than an average owner in either country would hold. This is only a small reflection of how generally entrepreneurial they are in their life engagements. I haven't discussed the deets with them but when they return alongside the winter melt, I'll ask them why they chose this awkward scenario over medigap. I do know they had issues with 'pre-existing' and, despite their financial comfort, this was the best option.

BTW, If we're comparing funny and condescending british commonwealth lit about the colonies, check out Vernon God Little. I won't quote because I don't want to give away the ending...

[Guest American Woman]

I'll laugh at anything that's funny, honey! If you're upset at the comment about international ignorance, know that really I meant it, but as a cute idiosyncrasy, kinda like how it's both sweet and annoying that canadians are so obsessively polite.

I wasn't upset in the least; I posted it for the same reason you did-- because it's cute and sweet, just like "ignorant" and "polite" are both sweet and endearing idiosyncrasies.

Best keep looking for that sense of humor ......

Edited February 4, 2010 by American Woman

[dizzy]

I wasn't upset in the least; I posted it for the same reason you did-- because it's cute and sweet, just like "ignorant" and "polite" are both sweet and endearing idiosyncrasies.

Best keep looking for that sense of humor ......

K, I'm going to pass on the passive-aggressive exchange of smileys. Get back to me when you want to discuss the deets of the post in question.

[bush_cheney2004]

well look at what I found today

60,000 americans came here compared to the 200 canadians from Onatario and Quebec referred to the US for medical help last year...

Lots of reasons for that....having nothing to do with provinces letting contracts as a matter of policy because of shortfalls.

then there's this article by an american who movedto Canada

...yet more Canadians emigrate to the US based on that precious per-capita metric so loved "up north". Yay...no more wait times!

and I found a number of references to americans coming here a paying for elective procedures

..but they don't get the kind of press that Williams is getting. Wanna know why?

[Guest American Woman]

K, I'm going to pass on the passive-aggressive exchange of smileys. Get back to me when you want to discuss the deets of the post in question.

Seriously, dude, where's your sense of humor? Get back to me when you find it.

In the meantime, I've already discussed the deets in the post in question. I've pointed out that they are recent stats, and since I provided the link for you, I'm sure you could see that the other stats given are just as others here have claimed. The life expectancies on the site I linked to are exactly what's being said here. Same with the immigration stats. I suppose the only stat they got wrong is the one I referenced, is that it?

[dizzy]

Lots of reasons for that....having nothing to do with provinces letting contracts as a matter of policy because of shortfalls.

...yet more Canadians emigrate to the US based on that precious per-capita metric so loved "up north". Yay...no more wait times!

..but they don't get the kind of press that Williams is getting. Wanna know why?

I dispute the statement suggesting that more canadians per capita seek healthcare outside of their country than do americans. But I say that with disinterest because, my essential question is, what does it matter? If people are comfortably able to get the healthcare they desire, let them get it where they get it. Medical tourism is a good thing so long as it is achievable.

As said before, I agree with you that many canadians are unaware that their provinces consciously incorporate american capacity into their healthcare budget projections. But I'm not sure why canadians would dislike this. What's cheaper, training and retaining the capacity for all canadians across this sparse landscape to have a heart doctor on call, or occasionally sending overflow to a heart centre in buffalo or montana, where the staff are twiddling their thumbs because the guy down the street can't afford to their services?

I feel awful for Danny William because he is going to get plowed by the media when he returns. I just don't see the problem with him getting access to care, wherever he chooses. But, if this anxiety is what it takes to keep canadians sufficiently anxious such that they're prepared for healthcare reform, then I'm cool. Any attention is good attention, right?

[dizzy]

Seriously, dude, where's your sense of humor? Get back to me when you find it.

In the meantime, I've already discussed the deets in the post in question. I've pointed out that they are recent stats, and since I provided the link for you, I'm sure you could see that the other stats given are just as others here have claimed. The life expectancies on the site I linked to are exactly what's being said here. Same with the immigration stats. I suppose the only stat they got wrong is the one I referenced, is that it?

Like I said, you've got to works if you wants to gain my giggles.

As a courtesy, I went back to the post in question. All I found was this one liner:

"If that's true, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed."

...?

[bush_cheney2004]

I dispute the statement suggesting that more canadians per capita seek healthcare outside of their country than do americans. But I say that with disinterest because, my essential question is, what does it matter? If people are comfortably able to get the healthcare they desire, let them get it where they get it. Medical tourism is a good thing so long as it is achievable.

In the present context, it only matters because Canada's CHA has been presented by some as superior to "American style" health care. I can only imagine what the tone would be in the midst of Chretien/Martin cuts to the provinces several years ago.

As said before, I agree with you that many canadians are unaware that their provinces consciously incorporate american capacity into their healthcare budget projections. But I'm not sure why canadians would dislike this.

The most practical objections would be taxes paid, intolerable wait times, provincial disparities, and Supreme Court rulings!

I feel awful for Danny William because he is going to get plowed by the media when he returns. I just don't see the problem with him getting access to care, wherever he chooses. But, if this anxiety is what it takes to keep canadians sufficiently anxious such that they're prepared for healthcare reform, then I'm cool. Any attention is good attention, right?

I guess...Canada's is the most expensive universal access "system" in the world, and going to the USA to bridge gaps only makes it more so.

[Gabriel]

I got lost on page 16 of this thread. Here's a question for you folks - is there any context that needs to be added to reality than Canada spends about half of what the USA spends on healthcare on a per capita basis? I'm sure we'd all agree that the quality of healthcare is largely the same (of course with some exceptions where America has services/products unavailable in Canada for rarer problems). I doubt our American fellow forum members would have reservations about coming to a hospital in Canada should they be up here and need medical services for whatever reason. This fact supports the argument that we're doing a better job in Canada with respect to keeping healthcare costs lower. In other words, as things stand now, healthcare costs are much less of a burden on Canadians at both the micro and macro levels, while only marginally impacting the quality of care. What am I missing here?

Edited February 4, 2010 by Gabriel

[bush_cheney2004]

.....In other words, as things stand now, healthcare costs are much less of a burden on Canadians at both the micro and macro levels, while only marginally impacting the quality of care. What am I missing here?

For one, the fact that excess American health care capacity, pharma R&D, CDC standards, etc. means that Canada doesn't have to invest as much, even though it is still very the most expensive compared to other universal systems. Also, provincial procedures are limited to an approved list, and only recently have insurance products been approved by court rulings. Add in lower compensation for medical professionals.....maybe that's why they left?

[Guest American Woman]

Like I said, you've got to works if you wants to gain my giggles.

I don't want to. The laugh I got out of it is enough for me.

As a courtesy, I went back to the post in question. All I found was this one liner:

"If that's true, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed."

...?

I had no idea what post you were referring to. Obviously, from my response, I thought it was the post regarding the disposable income. Weren't you the one questioning me on that?

As for the couple you referred to, since they are retired, they can get health care here in the States for free. If they want to buy additional insurance on top of that, $600,000 would do that nicely with lots to spare. So all they have to do is sell the house in Canada and live in the home in the US that you say they want to retire to full time.

Hence my response.

Edited February 4, 2010 by American Woman

[dizzy]

In the present context, it only matters because Canada's CHA has been presented by some as superior to "American style" health care. I can only imagine what the tone would be in the midst of Chretien/Martin cuts to the provinces several years ago.

A lot of people express nationalist vibrato here. And they're not all canadians.

The most practical objections would be taxes paid, intolerable wait times, provincial disparities, and Supreme Court rulings!

intolerable? no. I've discussed this in previous posts. And, let me tell you, as a guy who lost internal body parts and as the son of an aging parent and a father, I've explored the system form many dimensions. Does it need improvement, yes! But, in truth, the system has been wicked good to me and my own. I've had the privilege to experience systems in the US and Europe and, while I can tell to that there are things I liked or disliked about each, I must say that all were good and I think we could learn something from each other if we allowed it for ourselves.

Taxes paid? As mentioned before, public and private contributions here amount to half what americans pay so, no.

I see provincialism as a good thing. The financial structure is that you have 10 democratically-elected bodies, each working to provide the best possible service for the least amount of money. Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and BC in particular are taking different routes and there are good things to cherry pick from each. This kind of forced innovation has a lot to do with the improvements we've seen over the past 10 yrs - keeping in mind that all these improvements were made while we were getting tax cuts at the federal and provincial levels.

I think the best long term solution is to kill the Canada Health Act and close down Health Canada (other than the CFIA and drug approval programs). Keep the feds in their constitutional domain and let the provinces do their thing. Do any of the Canadians out there agree?

I guess...Canada's is the most expensive universal access "system" in the world, and going to the USA to bridge gaps only makes it more so.

I have no idea where you attribute the most expensive system in the world claim to Canada. Please quote source so that I can read for myself.

Everyone is using other people's systems as a 'gap' as you call it. Again, I call it trade, like cars and toothpicks. When I last went to india in 2007, I met entrepreneurs who were establishing surgical clinics for american medical tourists. Whole industries set up in different countries for americans. But, in a post-national economy, I fail to see why people moving across borders to get what they want or need is a bad thing. Especially if it is not at the cost of individual access.

[bush_cheney2004]

A lot of people express nationalist vibrato here. And they're not all canadians.

Let's get past this annoyance for you at once....I (and several others here) are not ashamed of strident nationalism. The last time I checked, there was still a border check point at International Falls...for going north.

intolerable? no. I've discussed this in previous posts. And, let me tell you, as a guy who lost internal body parts and as the son of an aging parent and a father, I've explored the system form many dimensions. Does it need improvement, yes! But, in truth, the system has been wicked good to me and my own. I've had the privilege to experience systems in the US and Europe and, while I can tell to that there are things I liked or disliked about each, I must say that all were good and I think we could learn something from each other if we allowed it for ourselves.

That's fine, please keep and improve the domestic offerings. We'll leave a light on for ya, and fight like dogs to keep what we also feel is pretty damn good.

Taxes paid? As mentioned before, public and private contributions here amount to half what americans pay so, no.

...and you get less.

I see provincialism as a good thing. The financial structure is that you have 10 democratically-elected bodies, each working to provide the best possible service for the least amount of money. Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and BC in particular are taking different routes and there are good things to cherry pick from each. This kind of forced innovation has a lot to do with the improvements we've seen over the past 10 yrs - keeping in mind that all these improvements were made while we were getting tax cuts at the federal and provincial levels.

But the ideology says that CHA goals are not limited to "provincialism". Fortunately, ideology means nothing...health care is not a right...not even in CHA Canada.

I have no idea where you attribute the most expensive system in the world claim to Canada. Please quote source so that I can read for myself.

Canada's is the most expensive universal access system in the world...see previous threads.

Everyone is using other people's systems as a 'gap' as you call it. Again, I call it trade, like cars and toothpicks. When I last went to india in 2007, I met entrepreneurs who were establishing surgical clinics for american medical tourists. Whole industries set up in different countries for americans. But, in a post-national economy, I fail to see why people moving across borders to get what they want or need is a bad thing. Especially if it is not at the cost of individual access.

Consumer choice vs. provincial policy...very different ideas.

Edited February 4, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[dizzy]

I don't want to. The laugh I got out of it is enough for me.

This would be more convincing if you didn't dedicate 3 posts to motivating me toward your 'humor'...

I had no idea what post you were referring to. Obviously, from my response, I thought it was the post regarding the disposable income. Weren't you the one questioning me on that?

As for the couple you referred to, since they are retired, they can get health care here in the States for free. If they want to buy additional insurance on top of that, $600,000 would do that nicely with lots to spare. So all they have to do is sell the house in Canada and live in the home in the US that you say they want to retire to full time.

Hence my response.

They tried it out, but US Medicare wasn't suiting them. From what they have said, medicare covers the golden share of her hospital needs (which are minimal as they are generally not in need of emergency care) but very little of doctor, specialist and drug care. All are covered at 100% in Québec, where we live.

I'm sure that $600K could cover a lot in Tennessee. But, then again, a simple surgery could drain most of that.

[Smallc]

the most expensive compared to other universal systems.

Actually, I don't believe that's true anymore. There are several European countries that now spend more as a percentage of GDP.

[Smallc]

Also, provincial procedures are limited to an approved list, and only recently have insurance products been approved by court rulings.

Actually, if a procedures isn't covered by the province (delisted) then it can always be covered by insurance...and in most provinces, there are very few procedures that aren't covered.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, if a procedures isn't covered by the province (delisted) then it can always be covered by insurance...and in most provinces, there are very few procedures that aren't covered.

Sorry...I wans't clear re: court rulings.....for WAIT TIME INSURANCE.

[wyly]

Lots of reasons for that....having nothing to do with provinces letting contracts as a matter of policy because of shortfalls.

okay give those reasons60,000 americans would try to con healthcare in Canada if it's so bad...you implied that never happened it was all one way south no american would ever go to Canada for treatment...

...yet more Canadians emigrate to the US based on that precious per-capita metric so loved "up north".

actually not, because our population is one tenth of the US can only absorb so many each year which is still greater than the USA on a per capita basis however the US can absorb greater overall numbers...but if Canada were equal in population to the US and could absorb as many immigrants multiply the number of americans now coming to canada each year by ten and the numbers would equal 3 heading North for every 1 Canadian south...

and many americans are under an assumption that they can use immigrate here any time they choose and we'll accept them, not the case at all we still only accept the best qualified and they must wait their turn just like any other country...

[Guest American Woman]

This would be more convincing if you didn't dedicate 3 posts to motivating me toward your 'humor'...

More like pointing out that your humor is very one-sided.

They tried it out, but US Medicare wasn't suiting them. From what they have said, medicare covers the golden share of her hospital needs (which are minimal as they are generally not in need of emergency care) but very little of doctor, specialist and drug care. All are covered at 100% in Québec, where we live.

I'm sure that $600K could cover a lot in Tennessee. But, then again, a simple surgery could drain most of that.

Not if they had additional insurance. My parents are retired and have had heart surgeries at Mayo, completely covered. And they don't own a million dollars worth of houses.

I repeat. That $600,000 could buy them supplemental insurance with a lot left over.

[wyly]

I guess...Canada's is the most expensive universal access "system" in the world, and going to the USA to bridge gaps only makes it more so.

no...if Williams illness is something that can be treated here healthcare will not cover any of the cost he's on his own, only if it was for treatment that was not available here will the Healthcare cover some of the basic costs, frills like private rooms and such are his problem..

[bush_cheney2004]

okay give those reasons60,000 americans would try to con healthcare in Canada if it's so bad...you implied that never happened it was all one way south no american would ever go to Canada for treatment...

Bullpucky...now you're just making stuff up...I implied no such thing. American tourists alone would have to avail themselves of "Canadian health care".

actually not, because our population is one tenth of the US can only absorb so many each year which is still greater than the USA on a per capita basis however the US can absorb greater overall numbers...but if Canada were equal in population to the US and could absorb as many immigrants multiply the number of americans now coming to canada each year by ten and the numbers would equal 3 heading North for every 1 Canadian south...

More excuses....we have already demonstrated in previous threads that more Canadians have historically emigrated to the USA. There is a cottage industry to help Canadians navigate their way to that precious American "Green Card"!

and many americans are under an assumption that they can use immigrate here any time they choose and we'll accept them, not the case at all we still only accept the best qualified and they must wait their turn just like any other country...

Sure...the best qualified being those with capital to invest...LOL!

[bush_cheney2004]

no...if Williams illness is something that can be treated here healthcare will not cover any of the cost he's on his own, only if it was for treatment that was not available here will the Healthcare cover some of the basic costs, frills like private rooms and such are his problem..

Omigod...you mean that...(gulp)...there are some cardiac procedures not available in Canada? But they are available in Neanderthal America? Amazing!

Williams can pay for whatever he wants...anywhere he wants to get it.

[wyly]

But the ideology says that CHA goals are not limited to "provincialism". Fortunately, ideology means nothing...health care is not a right...not even in CHA Canada.

it's untouchable...

[wyly]

Bullpucky...now you're just making stuff up...I implied no such thing. American tourists alone would have to avail themselves of "Canadian health care".

bullpucky indeed tourists don't come with fake Canada healthcards....

[bush_cheney2004]

bullpucky indeed tourists don't come with fake Canada healthcards....

...you mean like Canadians with fake US Social Security cards? I had a program manager that would scoot back to Winnipeg every six months from his cushy American job just to keep his "healthcard" alive.