Environment, oilsands

[Lumpy]

If anything Alberta is over-represented. In Alberta, the average is around 1:50,000. In Ontario its 1:100,000. I'm not moved by the cries of no taxation without representation.

Really? Let's check Statistics Canada and do some division:

Alberta:

Population 3,703,979

Seats in the HoC: 28

Population/seat: 132,288

Ontario:

Population 13,119,251

Seats in the HoC: 106

Population/seat: 123,766.5

Canada:

Population 33,873,357

Seats in the HoC: 308

Population/seat: 109,978.4

Doesn't look like over-representation from here.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Dollars and cents are the true measures of success, anyone who says otherwise is jealous and has to tell themselves that to make themselves feel better.

You have no idea how much I pity you at this moment.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The oil sands are Alberta's, we will do as we please with them. The nation of Canada has much power over us and every other citizen. They can do what they can within the law.

[Michael Hardner]

You have no idea how much I pity you at this moment.

I agree with you. It seems the richer we get, the more we focus on money. It should be the other way around.

[Michael Hardner]

The oil sands are Alberta's, we will do as we please with them. The nation of Canada has much power over us and every other citizen. They can do what they can within the law.

And as was explained above, the Crown has a say over exploration rights.

All of these things are negotiated, and as another poster stated, above, divisiveness is being exploited for political purposes. It`s all rather silly - this east vs west and Ontario vs Alberta. Who cares ?

Regional identity means less than ever in this era of globalization.

As I`ve said before, if you see a flag waving in the background of the TV image, you`re likely watching a truck ad. ( Or a government ad.)

[waldo]

Look folks, why not we stop bashing each other and look at the root cause of our mutual problems. The feds. These guys suck us all dry on a regular basis ! IF we, Albertans decide to stay in confederation, some changes are going to be required. Reworking the entire concept of equalization is one little hill to climb, but there are many others.

Albertans know how much Ontario and other provinces have contributed to our economic growth. We are not fools, separation would not be easy. We don't want to separate, but if push comes to shove what the hell else can we do. We have no real political say, elections are over by the time they get to the Manitoba border. Folks just try to see things from our point of view. How about the CWB ? Remember the Crow rate? How about the NEP? How would your citizens respond to these things while not having enough representatives in the house to have a real say?

you're the one that blasted forward with your "ALBERTA's resource" separatist stance... now you want to presume to steer discussion towards your perception of a so-called mutual problem cause - the "feds". What problem? Either you believe in strong federalism... or you don't. You're a pompous ass for presuming to speak for Albertans, particularly when the vast majority don't want anything to do with your separatist bleat. You have as much say, proportionally, as most Canadian provinces... more than many. Do you consider Albertan's more Canadian than those within other provinces... is that your rationale for presuming to warrant increased (disproportional) representation? It's been 30 years since the NEP... yet, you still continue to trot it out. I thought the Crow Rate benefited prairie farmers???... if you have a problem with it's replacement WGTA, that's a complete different discussion - perhaps you could have your separatist talking points better stated.

[Hydraboss]

We can always move the "Good-bye from Alberta" talk here:

Better Thread for This

[Jerry J. Fortin]

you're the one that blasted forward with your "ALBERTA's resource" separatist stance... now you want to presume to steer discussion towards your perception of a so-called mutual problem cause - the "feds". What problem? Either you believe in strong federalism... or you don't. You're a pompous ass for presuming to speak for Albertans, particularly when the vast majority don't want anything to do with your separatist bleat. You have as much say, proportionally, as most Canadian provinces... more than many. Do you consider Albertan's more Canadian than those within other provinces... is that your rationale for presuming to warrant increased (disproportional) representation? It's been 30 years since the NEP... yet, you still continue to trot it out. I thought the Crow Rate benefited prairie farmers???... if you have a problem with it's replacement WGTA, that's a complete different discussion - perhaps you could have your separatist talking points better stated.

Look Waldo,

Here is a fact for you, natural resources come under the jurisdiction of the provinces, at least according to the law of the land on this planet, maybe not yours. Ignorant bastards that think otherwise can go suck eggs.

Here is another fact for you, provinces are supposed to be equal partners in confederation with the federal government. So how is it that some jerks seem to think that the feds rule over us? Where does this bogus concept of strong federalism come from?

Here is another little fact for you Waldo, I don't speak for Albertans any more than you do. What I say, I say on my own behalf, but I will grant you this, I have spoken to hundreds of Albertans in the last week....have you? You freaking goof!

Who are you to speculate about what Albertans belief or not? Are you an Albertan? Or are you just talking out of your ass like so many others who claim to know what is best for Albertans?

Albertans are Canadians by citizenship, no more than anyone else, and no less than anyone else. As such each of us has the same say as any other citizens in this nation. Your desire talk down to any citizen is merely stating your own childish position. I don't advocate any disproportionate representation at all, and I would ask that you prove that I have.

Its ONLY been thirty years since the NEP. That little program wiped out thousands of Alberta business's and tens of thousands of citizens. The purpose of the program was to provide a GOOD DEAL ON ENERGY to eastern Canada ! Only a complete retard would suggest that we should merely forget that it ever happened.

With no respect at all I suggest you look into what the Crow rate was all about before you open your yap about it. It was freight rates to the west coast, and we were not talking just about the praires, we were talking about Alberta. You did not mention the Canada Wheat Board, and how it is illegal to sell our wheat to anybody but the fed board did you. The same product can be sold to anyone from Ontario, but not here. Did you forget that Waldo, or are you simply to ignorant of the facts?

You have not begin to hear my separatist talking points buddy.

[eyeball]

Here is a fact for you, natural resources come under the jurisdiction of the provinces, at least according to the law of the land on this planet, maybe not yours.

Canada's marine fish resources don't fall under Provincial jurisdiction.

I can't prove that the Province would have done a better job of stewarding its own salmon resource but I note that coastal communities in State managed fisheries adjacent to B.C. in Alaska still have relatively healthy fishing industries. Meanwhile in Washington State, Ottawa has accepted $30 million from the US government to shut down salmon fishing off B.C.'s south coast and allow these fish to be caught in Washington State's fisheries - This is probably permanent given Ottawa has shown no sign of adopting whatever it is that seems to have worked in Alaska. (Note that salmon heading for the B.C. south coast are generally caught off Alaska.)

To me what seems to have worked the most in Alaskan fishermen's favour is that the management of the natural resource they depend on the most is more accountable to them simply because it is closer to where they live. One thing that really stands out is that when Alaskan coastal communities insisted that no fish farms be allowed in Alaska they didn't happen. Not so in BC. What does one say to that?

Edited January 9, 2010 by eyeball

[waldo]

Look Waldo,

Here is a fact for you, natural resources come under the jurisdiction of the provinces, at least according to the law of the land on this planet, maybe not yours. Ignorant bastards that think otherwise can go suck eggs.

I seem to recall an, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard” in this thread, categorically state the, as you say, “feds” have no say in regards waterways, fisheries, Indian lands, and environmental assessments/impacts… I seem to recall that after that, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard” made that declaration, he then bleated forward he was an “Alberta separatist”. When I look at the overall posting history of that, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard”, his complete hypocrisy shows through as he, post after post, thread after thread, appears to value being Canadian… appears to value the country of Canada.

Here is another fact for you, provinces are supposed to be equal partners in confederation with the federal government. So how is it that some jerks seem to think that the feds rule over us? Where does this bogus concept of strong federalism come from?

In the context of our ‘decentralized’ Canadian federalism, your attempts to cast the, as you say, “feds” negatively, undermines the country… but what do you care as an avowed separatist? You pompously spout off about a “mutual problem”… that the “feds” are “sucking us dry”… that equalization needs to be re-worked. Why do you care… you’re an avowed separatist! That equalization formula currently supports the country of Canada and helps make it what it is… that equalization formula currently provides a revenue base to support our brand of federalism… strong federalism with decentralized responsibilities for provinces. But why do you care… you’re an avowed separatist!

Here is another little fact for you Waldo, I don't speak for Albertans any more than you do. What I say, I say on my own behalf, but I will grant you this, I have spoken to hundreds of Albertans in the last week....have you? You freaking goof!

Who are you to speculate about what Albertans belief or not? Are you an Albertan? Or are you just talking out of your ass like so many others who claim to know what is best for Albertans?

Bullshit – your words are not personalized… you continually presume for the citizens of Alberta, at large. Who cares if you’ve spoken to your separatist crew. You separatist wingnuts have never been able to muster anything beyond fringe radical positioning. If I presume to speak for Albertans, it’s in the context of understanding no significant separatist position exists there… unlike yourself, who repeatedly presumes to speak for Albertans.

Albertans are Canadians by citizenship, no more than anyone else, and no less than anyone else. As such each of us has the same say as any other citizens in this nation. Your desire talk down to any citizen is merely stating your own childish position. I don't advocate any disproportionate representation at all, and I would ask that you prove that I have.

Then don’t start whining, as you did, that elections are “over by the time they get to the Manitoba border”… then don’t start whining, as you did, that you “don’t have enough representatives in the house to have a real say”. But why do you care… you’re an avowed Alberta separatist!

Its ONLY been thirty years since the NEP. That little program wiped out thousands of Alberta business's and tens of thousands of citizens. The purpose of the program was to provide a GOOD DEAL ON ENERGY to eastern Canada ! Only a complete retard would suggest that we should merely forget that it ever happened.

It’s clear you have no idea what the NEP was intended for… it’s clear you perpetuate misunderstandings and falsehoods about the NEP. Care to provide citations to clearly show the so-called negative impact of the NEP that you’ve just declared… impacts particularly isolated in relation to the global events of the day? 30 years and counting… other than self-avowed separatist wing-nuts and self-serving political partisans, who gives it any substance/significance today?

With no respect at all I suggest you look into what the Crow rate was all about before you open your yap about it. It was freight rates to the west coast, and we were not talking just about the praires, we were talking about Alberta. You did not mention the Canada Wheat Board, and how it is illegal to sell our wheat to anybody but the fed board did you. The same product can be sold to anyone from Ontario, but not here. Did you forget that Waldo, or are you simply to ignorant of the facts?

Clearly you know nothing about the Crow rate… as it was much more than your just declared “freight rates to the west coast”. An equally significant aspect was the reduced rail rates for grain shipped east to the Great Lakes… c’mon, buddy – you better up your separatist game!

The CWB is ‘farmer’ controlled… has been for over 10 years. Are there issues? Are there multiple sides/positions around those issues? If you presume to argue about the CWB based on Ontario farmer’s wheat production… you’re an imbecile – Ontario produces only 4% of the total wheat in Canada and even at that, export must be handled via the Ontario Wheat Producer’s Marketing Board.

You have not begin to hear my separatist talking points buddy.

If your preceding points are indicative of what you’re holding back… no worries!

[blueblood]

I seem to recall an, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard” in this thread, categorically state the, as you say, “feds” have no say in regards waterways, fisheries, Indian lands, and environmental assessments/impacts… I seem to recall that after that, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard” made that declaration, he then bleated forward he was an “Alberta separatist”. When I look at the overall posting history of that, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard”, his complete hypocrisy shows through as he, post after post, thread after thread, appears to value being Canadian… appears to value the country of Canada.

And judging by your posting history a vast majority of posters think your debating skills are at the level where you couldn't convince a starving African to eat something.

In the context of our ‘decentralized’ Canadian federalism, your attempts to cast the, as you say, “feds” negatively, undermines the country… but what do you care as an avowed separatist? You pompously spout off about a “mutual problem”… that the “feds” are “sucking us dry”… that equalization needs to be re-worked. Why do you care… you’re an avowed separatist! That equalization formula currently supports the country of Canada and helps make it what it is… that equalization formula currently provides a revenue base to support our brand of federalism… strong federalism with decentralized responsibilities for provinces. But why do you care… you’re an avowed separatist!

I have to feel for the more intelligent posters from Ontario, because if this is what's representative of a large part of Ontario's population, it's no wonder Quebec and Alberta have problems with "Canadian federalism".

Bullshit – your words are not personalized… you continually presume for the citizens of Alberta, at large. Who cares if you’ve spoken to your separatist crew. You separatist wingnuts have never been able to muster anything beyond fringe radical positioning. If I presume to speak for Albertans, it’s in the context of understanding no significant separatist position exists there… unlike yourself, who repeatedly presumes to speak for Albertans.

Speaking of wingnuts...

you should get out to Alberta more.

Then don’t start whining, as you did, that elections are “over by the time they get to the Manitoba border”… then don’t start whining, as you did, that you “don’t have enough representatives in the house to have a real say”. But why do you care… you’re an avowed Alberta separatist!

Speaking of whining...

Here's your posts in a nutshell

"Waah the Albertans are making too much money"

"Waah the Albertans are making dirty oil and funding the other provinces with it"

"Waah Albertans should bend over and give all their money away"

"Waah my arguments on global warming suck"

"Waah why don't the serfs from Alberta like having their money taken away"

"Waah Canada should destroy its economy based on fudged climate data"

But what do you care, your just some poor, jealous, leftist who has a hate on for people that do well for themselves. You remind me of those elitist types during the 1800's who implement policies that have completely screwed over the First Nation's people because they thought they were inferior. Thank God society has progressed to a point where people like you are not taken seriously.

Alberta is a far more effecient money making province than Ontario, deal with it.

It’s clear you have no idea what the NEP was intended for… it’s clear you perpetuate misunderstandings and falsehoods about the NEP. Care to provide citations to clearly show the so-called negative impact of the NEP that you’ve just declared… impacts particularly isolated in relation to the global events of the day? 30 years and counting… other than self-avowed separatist wing-nuts and self-serving political partisans, who gives it any substance/significance today?

All right lets have a NMP (a national manufacturers policy) where all the goods in Quebec and Ontario get sold to other parts of Canada at a discount. Lets see how you guys would like that concept. The fact that Quebec doesn't ship any of its hydro to other parts of Canada at a discount is madness. Lets see what an NMP effect would have on Ontario manufacturing jobs.

Clearly you know nothing about the Crow rate… as it was much more than your just declared “freight rates to the west coast”. An equally significant aspect was the reduced rail rates for grain shipped east to the Great Lakes… c’mon, buddy – you better up your separatist game!

The CWB is ‘farmer’ controlled… has been for over 10 years. Are there issues? Are there multiple sides/positions around those issues? If you presume to argue about the CWB based on Ontario farmer’s wheat production… you’re an imbecile – Ontario produces only 4% of the total wheat in Canada and even at that, export must be handled via the Ontario Wheat Producer’s Marketing Board.

Wrong, the Ontario farmers can sell their grain to whoever they want, and can export to the states without problems. There is no monopoly in Ontario, none. Not only that, they enjoy the benefits of reduced freight charges associated with less transport distances.

The majority of Canadian grain goes west, the amount of handling costs associated with the great lakes makes it unfeasible for Alberta grain to go east.

Don't waste time trying to argue with Westerners about the CWB, you only embarass yourself.

-------------

And people wonder why Westerners are P.O'd at Eastern Canada. When their politicians resemble this buffoon, it's not hard to connect the dots.

Thank you for that "convincing" post of yours, it probably ranks right up there with your other global warming gems.

[ToadBrother]

To me what seems to have worked the most in Alaskan fishermen's favour is that the management of the natural resource they depend on the most is more accountable to them simply because it is closer to where they live. One thing that really stands out is that when Alaskan coastal communities insisted that no fish farms be allowed in Alaska they didn't happen. Not so in BC. What does one say to that?

Perhaps you could point out where the BC government ever said "We don't want fish farms." Quite the opposite, the NDP allowed them in, and the BC Liberals have essentially encouraged their growth.

[Smallc]

There are small separation movements in every part of every country. Alberta isn't unique. Well, it is unique in that it's a relatively wealthy jurisdiction (though not the wealthiest) lucky enough to be in a free and democratic society.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Smallc

[eyeball]

Perhaps you could point out where the BC government ever said "We don't want fish farms." Quite the opposite, the NDP allowed them in, and the BC Liberals have essentially encouraged their growth.

I meant BC's coastal communities, which like Alaska's, clearly didn't want them. Times have probably changed given fish-farming is now about the main thing going in some areas.

Our B.C. political parties biggest failing were in not demanding that Ottawa hand over responsibility for our ocean fisheries to B.C. The only politician I recall ever doing so was Glen Clark...great front man for an advocate eh? This is why I really loath party politics not to mention our whole rotten system of governance and representation. You can never depend on them being there when you really need them the most. This is why I have no more faith in provincial management than I do federal management. Local is the best way to go, at least for some things. But the problem is there's just no middle ground and its their way or the highway.

If fishing communities really are like canaries in a coal mine, and there is no other option than the distant useless forms of representation we use now then we are screwed.

I think if you look at coastal communities that depend on fisheries for a living around the world, you will find many of them are concluding very much the same thing.

Edited January 9, 2010 by eyeball

[waldo]

And judging by your posting history a vast majority of posters think your debating skills are at the level where you couldn't convince a starving African to eat something.

your skills? You appear not to have recovered from your humiliation in not being able to actually define the sides/arguments/positions you presumed to set your little poll around!

I have to feel for the more intelligent posters from Ontario, because if this is what's representative of a large part of Ontario's population, it's no wonder Quebec and Alberta have problems with "Canadian federalism".

nothing stopping you from providing your Alberta perspective on federalism... of course, it would actually require you to string a few cohesive thoughts together - clearly, you have extreme difficulty in articulating anything, so it's no surprise you continue to spout nothingness over actually offering anything for review/discussion.

But what do you care, your just some poor, jealous, leftist who has a hate on for people that do well for themselves. You remind me of those elitist types during the 1800's who implement policies that have completely screwed over the First Nation's people because they thought they were inferior. Thank God society has progressed to a point where people like you are not taken seriously.

buddy, your penchant for personalized attack is well substantiated; however, the seriousness with which you take me is most humbling.

Alberta is a far more effecient money making province than Ontario, deal with it.

really? Like I said, you've pissed away your revenue streams - twice now. Your Heritage Fund is an embarrassment of non-riches... in relation to where it should be. Is that your efficient money making? Why are you running a deficit? If you've done such a miraculous job why are the knives out for Stelmach? Frankly, if Ralph could "manage" it... how difficult would it be for even a semi-intelligent monkey to manage your province given it's resource revenue stream?

you also have the same open invitation to bring forward your citations that speak to the JerryJ described impacts of the NEP... with the highlighted caveat to provide distinction between the NEP and global events of the day.

like I said, why are you so worried about what Ontario farmers are doing... they only produce 4% of the total output of Canada? The OWPMB is a relative major player - granted, no longer a single desk seller. But... again, why bother with the minuscule impact of the Ontario farmer... if you actually could articulate - put thought to keyboard - you'd offer up your concerns about the CWB - particularly in relation to how you perceive Alberta/western 'discrimination'/disadvantage... and be prepared to defend your position. Farmer controlled... for over a decade... are there problems?

Thank you for that "convincing" post of yours, it probably ranks right up there with your other global warming gems.

until you spouted off with your little poll, the one where you still can't actually detail (sides/arguments/positions), you were non-existent in any climate related threads... understandable, there were no blueblood 'gems', given your difficulty in managing your actual thought to keyboard.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

your skills? You appear not to have recovered from your humiliation in not being able to actually define the sides/arguments/positions you presumed to set your little poll around!

nothing stopping you from providing your Alberta perspective on federalism... of course, it would actually require you to string a few cohesive thoughts together - clearly, you have extreme difficulty in articulating anything, so it's no surprise you continue to spout nothingness over actually offering anything for review/discussion.

buddy, your penchant for personalized attack is well substantiated; however, the seriousness with which you take me is most humbling.

really? Like I said, you've pissed away your revenue streams - twice now. Your Heritage Fund is an embarrassment of non-riches... in relation to where it should be. Is that your efficient money making? Why are you running a deficit? If you've done such a miraculous job why are the knives out for Stelmach? Frankly, if Ralph could "manage" it... how difficult would it be for even a semi-intelligent monkey to manage your province given it's resource revenue stream?

you also have the same open invitation to bring forward your citations that speak to the JerryJ described impacts of the NEP... with the highlighted caveat to provide distinction between the NEP and global events of the day.

like I said, why are you so worried about what Ontario farmers are doing... they only produce 4% of the total output of Canada? The OWPMB is a relative major player - granted, no longer a single desk seller. But... again, why bother with the minuscule impact of the Ontario farmer... if you actually could articulate - put thought to keyboard - you'd offer up your concerns about the CWB - particularly in relation to how you perceive Alberta/western 'discrimination'/disadvantage... and be prepared to defend your position. Farmer controlled... for over a decade... are there problems?

until you spouted off with your little poll, the one where you still can't actually detail (sides/arguments/positions), you were non-existent in any climate related threads... understandable, there were no blueblood 'gems', given your difficulty in managing your actual thought to keyboard.

Talking points for Alberta Separatism

I like the way this was said;

1)

Western Canada is the size of Europe. Western Canada produces 52% of Canada's fishery, forestry, mining and agricultural revenue with 27% of Canada's population. It produces 90% of Canada's oil, gas and coal. Western Canada has a common language, and a direct interest in and access to Pacific Rim trade. There are only three provinces in Canada whose exports consistently exceed their imports in value: B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan. Two provinces, Ontario and Quebec control two-thirds of the seats in the House of Commons, Senate and Supreme Court. To change this to share power would require their consent, hence patronage and favourable decisions for Ontario and Quebec are inevitable and permanent. The problems of the bureaucracy of Canada, bilingualism, the cost of government, equalization payments, special status for Quebec and aboriginal peoples, the national debt of Canada, the power of Ontario and Quebec in the Commons and judiciary are only soluble with separation and Independence. A Western Canadian dollar, backed by Western Canadian resources would be worth twice what Canada's currency is worth today. We could be a prosperous, debt-free and independent nation . . .

Here is the source of that !

[blueblood]

your skills? You appear not to have recovered from your humiliation in not being able to actually define the sides/arguments/positions you presumed to set your little poll around!

What humiliation, 19 out of 23 people polled think you suck at arguing. But don't let the facts get in the way of that.

My link

Facts are a bitch aren't they.

nothing stopping you from providing your Alberta perspective on federalism... of course, it would actually require you to string a few cohesive thoughts together - clearly, you have extreme difficulty in articulating anything, so it's no surprise you continue to spout nothingness over actually offering anything for review/discussion.

Good thing for me I'm not from Alberta, so I can give a third party observation. The Albertans have a point.

But then again 83% of people polled think you spout nothingness, but that hasn't stopped you.

buddy, your penchant for personalized attack is well substantiated; however, the seriousness with which you take me is most humbling

Someone has to deal with nutbars.

really? Like I said, you've pissed away your revenue streams - twice now. Your Heritage Fund is an embarrassment of non-riches... in relation to where it should be. Is that your efficient money making? Why are you running a deficit? If you've done such a miraculous job why are the knives out for Stelmach? Frankly, if Ralph could "manage" it... how difficult would it be for even a semi-intelligent monkey to manage your province given it's resource revenue stream?

Just like the Ontarians pissed away their revenue streams. That must irk you that the Asians have you licked at the manufacturing game.

And then there is the Ontarians larger deficit; multiple income streams, high taxes, yet still in the red, pathetic. You keep chucking rocks from that glass house of yours. Don't worry Ed will be gone soon enough.

As for the NEP

My link

My link

My link

I like the part where they compared to how well Norway did vs. how bad Alberta did.

like I said, why are you so worried about what Ontario farmers are doing... they only produce 4% of the total output of Canada? The OWPMB is a relative major player - granted, no longer a single desk seller. But... again, why bother with the minuscule impact of the Ontario farmer... if you actually could articulate - put thought to keyboard - you'd offer up your concerns about the CWB - particularly in relation to how you perceive Alberta/western 'discrimination'/disadvantage... and be prepared to defend your position. Farmer controlled... for over a decade... are there problems?

It's not what Ontario farmers are doing, it's the hypocrisy of the Looney left and forcing Western Canadians to be a part of the CWB when Easterners get to market their grain how they want.

Of course you didn't hear about the plebescite that shows a majority of farmers want marketing choice, but don't let that fact slip your mind.

My link

Yeah, the CWB is farmer controlled, only the left wing hacks get put on, while the money makers get the screws put to them.

I'd suggest you stop right there, because you do not want to get into a CWB debate with a grain farmer, I have forgotten more about the ag industry than you will ever learn.

until you spouted off with your little poll, the one where you still can't actually detail (sides/arguments/positions), you were non-existent in any climate related threads... understandable, there were no blueblood 'gems', given your difficulty in managing your actual thought to keyboard.

Seems like the majority of posters got my little poll, and 4.75:1 think you suck at arguing. I don't need to be existent in any climate threads because Riverwind sums up my thoughts on the subject to a T and according to the majority of posters, articulates his thoughts better than you.

You keep practicing those debating skill, survey says you need all the practice you can get.

[waldo]

Talking points for Alberta Separatism

and yet... the Western Canada Concept party is long dead and gone - go figure! Just why didn't Western Canadians buy into your separatist bleat?

[waldo]

... hey blueblood... can you actually state anything yourself? Any twit can blindly post links.

Like I continue to challenge you with... like you continue to run from... just what were the sides/arguments/positions in regards your poll? C'mon - step up.

... heading out now for dinner - will look forward to your response tomorrow.

[Smallc]

Here is the source of that !

That would be fine...except like most people who care about money, you forget that countries are about people and not wealth. You can't have people with more money having more representation than those who have less. It doesn't work like that.

[blueblood]

That would be fine...except like most people who care about money, you forget that countries are about people and not wealth. You can't have people with more money having more representation than those who have less. It doesn't work like that.

It does in a corporation! And if you seen how well they work, I'd say they are on to something.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I seem to recall an, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard” in this thread, categorically state the, as you say, “feds” have no say in regards waterways, fisheries, Indian lands, and environmental assessments/impacts… I seem to recall that after that, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard” made that declaration, he then bleated forward he was an “Alberta separatist”. When I look at the overall posting history of that, as you say, “egg sucking ignorant bastard”, his complete hypocrisy shows through as he, post after post, thread after thread, appears to value being Canadian… appears to value the country of Canada.

You are dense aren't you? I want to be a proud Canadian. My roots here are a little deep. They buried my oldest Canadian descendant in 1703 outside of Troi Riviere. My grandfather came west and settled on a homestead in Alberta in 1903. I have some reason to claim being Canadian and wanting to be proud of it. My family has served in the wars of this nation for the last three centuries. Their existence, their efforts and their genetic material give me the right to speaking freely and openly in this democratic environment. I am Canadian. I live in Alberta, and I am a separatist. I believe this nation is currently abusing as well has already abused my province, and that is the reason that I want to separate. I have the right to say that.

In the context of our ‘decentralized’ Canadian federalism, your attempts to cast the, as you say, “feds” negatively, undermines the country… but what do you care as an avowed separatist? You pompously spout off about a “mutual problem”… that the “feds” are “sucking us dry”… that equalization needs to be re-worked. Why do you care… you’re an avowed separatist! That equalization formula currently supports the country of Canada and helps make it what it is… that equalization formula currently provides a revenue base to support our brand of federalism… strong federalism with decentralized responsibilities for provinces. But why do you care… you’re an avowed separatist!

My words undermine the nation do they? I had no idea I was that powerful that in stating the truth, I would shake the foundations of Canada. I care because Alberta is getting screwed in the process. Equalization was originally introduced in 1957 and the original plan used a 10 province formula of national average fiscal capacity of all provinces. But that seemed to change from being based on fiscal capacity, and not revenue or need. In the early 80's it morphed into a five province standard because of Alberta which was running at 190% of its fiscal capacity. So they exclude the richest province at the time and the poorest provinces to calculate a national standard that was actually a few per cent less than the current national average. They created a provincial standard in that there is now a guaranteed floor value with an annual escalator. So think about that, they cut us out of the calculation formula and then stick us with the tab!

Bullshit – your words are not personalized… you continually presume for the citizens of Alberta, at large. Who cares if you’ve spoken to your separatist crew. You separatist wingnuts have never been able to muster anything beyond fringe radical positioning. If I presume to speak for Albertans, it’s in the context of understanding no significant separatist position exists there… unlike yourself, who repeatedly presumes to speak for Albertans.

I speak as a free Albertan ya nut job. Not for the province or any other citizens, I am an Albertan "Fortis et Liber".

Then don’t start whining, as you did, that elections are “over by the time they get to the Manitoba border”… then don’t start whining, as you did, that you “don’t have enough representatives in the house to have a real say”. But why do you care… you’re an avowed Alberta separatist!

I care because we are getting screwed ya nut job.

It’s clear you have no idea what the NEP was intended for… it’s clear you perpetuate misunderstandings and falsehoods about the NEP. Care to provide citations to clearly show the so-called negative impact of the NEP that you’ve just declared… impacts particularly isolated in relation to the global events of the day? 30 years and counting… other than self-avowed separatist wing-nuts and self-serving political partisans, who gives it any substance/significance today?

Really?

Try reading this;

The consensus of economists is that the NEP was not economic policy, it was a political document. . . . The energy policies hit the petroleum industry by the dis­criminatory measures that discouraged the investment of foreign capital; by the federal-provincial squabbles over revenue that squeezed the industry's revenues; and by the "Canadianization" measures which wound up bankrupting the Canadian-owned firms they were intended to help.

Here is that link !

Clearly you know nothing about the Crow rate… as it was much more than your just declared “freight rates to the west coast”. An equally significant aspect was the reduced rail rates for grain shipped east to the Great Lakes… c’mon, buddy – you better up your separatist game!

Really? Here I thought;

The Crow's Nest Pass Agreement, dated 6 September 1897, was an agreement between the CPR and the Canadian government. The CPR was given a cash subsidy of $3.3 million and title to pass into BC in exchange for reducing, in perpetuity, eastbound rates on grain and flour and westbound ones on a specified list of "settlers' effects" (total rate reduction about 15%). The CPR obtained access to the valuable mining and smelting activities in the BC interior, and the government was able to allay western concerns over national transportation policies. The rate reduction coincided almost exactly with the beginning of the settlement boom, and quickly became enshrined in the public mind as a key part of the economic strategy of the day.

then again...

In the 1990s more and more western Canadians realized that the subsidization of transportation costs on grain and unprocessed grain products, but not on processed products, seriously distorted the regional economy. While the rates helped the primary producers, they discouraged secondary processing within the region. Processors found it more advantageous to have the unprocessed products shipped out of the region under the subsidized rates, and to establish appropriate processing facilities outside the region rather than to pay the much higher rates on processed goods shipped out of the region. Efforts to reduce the federal government's large budgetary deficit further increased the pressure to reduce subsidization programs which had apparently outlived their usefulness. There were also warnings that the western Canadian grain transportation subsidies contravened some of the terms of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

and so,

After 97 years and numerous negotiated or legislated changes, the freight rate reductions first agreed to by the federal government and the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1897 came to an end.

I read that here.

The CWB is ‘farmer’ controlled… has been for over 10 years. Are there issues? Are there multiple sides/positions around those issues? If you presume to argue about the CWB based on Ontario farmer’s wheat production… you’re an imbecile – Ontario produces only 4% of the total wheat in Canada and even at that, export must be handled via the Ontario Wheat Producer’s Marketing Board.

The CWB is a federal program stuffed with wannabe bureaucrats, their opinions revolve around them keeping a job don't you think?

If your preceding points are indicative of what you’re holding back… no worries!

Hold back hell, I just haven't got started yet........

Edited January 10, 2010 by Jerry J. Fortin

[Smallc]

It does in a corporation! And if you seen how well they work, I'd say they are on to something.

This isn't a corporation. That's a terrible way to look at things.

A while ago you were talking about true democracy...and now you're talking some kind of system where your wealth determines how much say you get. Thank God we live in this Canada, and not one designed by people who believe such things.

[blueblood]

... hey blueblood... can you actually state anything yourself? Any twit can blindly post links.

Like I continue to challenge you with... like you continue to run from... just what were the sides/arguments/positions in regards your poll? C'mon - step up.

... heading out now for dinner - will look forward to your response tomorrow.

Just when I thought you were done with throwing rocks from that glass house of yours here comes this gem, from one who has been chastized for blindly posting links, you call me on it.

Posted 28 November 2009 - 05:20 PM

waldo, on 28 November 2009 - 09:49 AM, said:

global warming types

hey Argus, what type are you? What would you like to offer, particularly, about that particular post you speak of... you know, actually offer something of substance, other than simply pointing to it.

Would you like me to go to some web site, pluck something off it, post it triumphantly and then act like a midget waving his monster dick around?

I leave that sort of behaviour to you.

Try reading the links. We've all given you that luxury.

For the 392nd and a half time, the poll was simply who is more convincing you or riverwind. 83% of people polled said your arguments suck, the comments in the thread clearly state that as well, and the comments in the thread showed that posters had no problem understanding the poll.

I've clearly stated my position on Alberta, the oilsands, and the CWB and backed it up with links.

If you lack in reading comprehension that's your problem not mine.

Edited January 10, 2010 by blueblood

[blueblood]

This isn't a corporation. That's a terrible way to look at things.

A while ago you were talking about true democracy...and now you're talking some kind of system where your wealth determines how much say you get. Thank God we live in this Canada, and not one designed by people who believe such things.

I am all about majority rules. The majority is never wrong in the grand scheme of things. The majority of Americans wanted an end to republican rule in 2008. Limiting the power of a majority smacks in the face of democracy. As for wealth being a determining factor, why should those who contribute more have their knees kicked out from them.