For those fed up with Harper's undemocratic behavior, tell your MP

[Alta4ever]

I am going to tell it do you straight. What is happening out there, even outside of facebook, and in the coffee shops, is outside the typical political posturing. It is to big to be driven by the LPC and NDP combined. It is well ahead of them and they are trying to catch up to public opinion.

Except that in your polls it points out that 65% either aren't paying attention or aren't following it closely. In other words don't care.

I don't frequent University coffee shops so I don't hear that talk, but it certainly isn't what I am hearing at the local coffee shops from people living in the real world. I the various contacts I have across this country.

[Alta4ever]

Like I said. Stop talking about it and force an election. Shit or get off the pot. If you won't, then STFU, I'm tired of all the whining.

If the opposition was really opposed to this they would be doing exactly this forcing an election when Parliament resumes march 4.

Or maybe they can force open the constitution and deal with this so called problem, But Nicky and toad don't really seem to want that. Just something to whine about.

[nicky10013]

Except that in your polls it points out that 65% either aren't paying attention or aren't following it closely. In other words don't care.

I don't frequent University coffee shops so I don't hear that talk, but it certainly isn't what I am hearing at the local coffee shops from people living in the real world. I the various contacts I have across this country.

University coffee shops are just as much the real world as any of yours. Conservatives mock Liberals for being arrogant yet only Conservatives have the gall to mock people who actually go to school and get an education as not actually living in the real world.

Canadians are pissed as hell about this. You can point out 65% all you want (though I question the numbers and want a link), a 10 point drop is a 10 point drop.

[myata]

Canadians are pissed as hell about this. You can point out 65% all you want (though I question the numbers and want a link), a 10 point drop is a 10 point drop.

And yet, Iggy won't call an election over Harper's prorogations. Because defending the democracy isn't important enough for him to "stoop"? Or because he wants it all for himself, as-is? Or because he is unsure of success? Who knows, or cares?

That's the really sad part of the story. Voting CPC means supporting Harper's kingly atticks and by side effect further diminishing of the elected Parliament. And voting for Iggy's Liberals means status quo, plain and simple aka inviting anybody else in the right mood (and the right place) to follow Chretien, Harper's etc lead and example. Maybe Iggy himself, who knows (granted, with the right, i.e Liberal justification)?

No, folks, it seems to me that if something good was destined to come out of this situation, we'd have to take the affair from political tweedledums/dees and into our hands. Maybe by writing our MP, but also our opposition riding associations, telling them loud and clear: "it's Liberals for real democracy, or Liberals out, forever" (OK, maybe for awhile, if necessary, extended while). If not their lofty learned in matters political minds, then maybe our lowly prodding could make them notice the real meaning and significance of this matter for the country and its democracy.

[Alta4ever]

University coffee shops are just as much the real world as any of yours. Conservatives mock Liberals for being arrogant yet only Conservatives have the gall to mock people who actually go to school and get an education as not actually living in the real world.

Canadians are pissed as hell about this. You can point out 65% all you want (though I question the numbers and want a link), a 10 point drop is a 10 point drop.

Inexperienced teenagers thinking they no more the rest of the world they haven't changed much since I left college.

If Canadians were so upset Ignatieff, and Layton would be talking about going to the polls, they would be talking about constitutional amendments. None of this talk just sideways talk about how this is undemocratic yet Ignatieff indicates he would use this parliamentary tool if he were Prime Minister.

[Alta4ever]

University coffee shops are just as much the real world as any of yours. Conservatives mock Liberals for being arrogant yet only Conservatives have the gall to mock people who actually go to school and get an education as not actually living in the real world.

Canadians are pissed as hell about this. You can point out 65% all you want (though I question the numbers and want a link), a 10 point drop is a 10 point drop.

You forget the other side where is the ten point gain for the opposition? Right didn't happen.

[Alta4ever]

You might find it hard to believe Nicky I was a liberal when I came out of school. Yes even I an "Albertan" sought a post secondary education.

[ToadBrother]

Except that in your polls it points out that 65% either aren't paying attention or aren't following it closely. In other words don't care.

What the polls indicate is that the Tories have lost a rather substantial amount of support.

I don't frequent University coffee shops so I don't hear that talk, but it certainly isn't what I am hearing at the local coffee shops from people living in the real world. I the various contacts I have across this country.

I love it. This is the explanation Spinal Tap used for canceled concerts.

[ToadBrother]

Most people couldn't care less. They're concerned about real issues, like taxes, and jobs. Not whether some terrorists were roughed up a bit by the Afghanistan government.

Like I said. Stop talking about it and force an election. Shit or get off the pot. If you won't, then STFU, I'm tired of all the whining.

I want you to spell out precisely why PArliament needs an election to force a government to deliver documents. Point out precisely where in our constitution, both written and unwritten, where Parliament needs to be dissolved.

[nicky10013]

You might find it hard to believe Nicky I was a liberal when I came out of school. Yes even I an "Albertan" sought a post secondary education.

Then yous hould know more than most that university is real life. Kids have to work to pay for rent and university or take out massive loans that will haunt them for 10 years all while going to school full time which as you know doesn't pay money.

As for the liberal part, yeah...somehow I question that.

Also, considering the 10% the opposition gained, no matter how you want to spin it, the Conservatives lost it. Just because you're an undecided doesn't mean you're going back to you're old party with open arms. In fact, considering 35% of the Conservative base strongly disagrees with the prorogment, I'd say those people aren't likely to come back. Doubt you'll respond to that.

[Alta4ever]

Then yous hould know more than most that university is real life. Kids have to work to pay for rent and university or take out massive loans that will haunt them for 10 years all while going to school full time which as you know doesn't pay money.

As for the liberal part, yeah...somehow I question that.

Also, considering the 10% the opposition gained, no matter how you want to spin it, the Conservatives lost it. Just because you're an undecided doesn't mean you're going back to you're old party with open arms. In fact, considering 35% of the Conservative base strongly disagrees with the prorogment, I'd say those people aren't likely to come back. Doubt you'll respond to that.

I am not spinning that the Conservatives lost 10% they those votes are gone will they return time will tell. But That support not moving to the other speaks volumes, it means they don't want what the other parties were offering either.

Life was pretty easy in College as contrast to now, a part time job and a student loan, not much to worry about, though I thought it was hard then couldn't afford the car or steak dinners, just KD and hotdogs, but very little responsibility, aside from keep up averages, and showing up for work on time. Now I have to worry about work, children, saving for retirement, demands on time, bills, reports, markets, taxes, providing for the family, making right career moves. College was a lot easier.

How much of the conservative base realizes that some of the red meat bills are actually private member bills that are unaffected by prorogation. Harpers stumble was not effectively communicating why this was needed before doing it. His sound bites so far have been very ineffective. But the outrage has peaked, not really hearing about in the news the last few days. Aside from Haiti what I am seeing in te way of political news is speculation about a cabinate shuffle, after that the media will be decrying the senate appointments, then we will hear nothing about federal politics, and a whole lot about protesters at the the Olympics and the Olympics itself. After all of that we will hear about the Throne speech and then the outrage from the vested interests over the budget.

[nicky10013]

I am not spinning that the Conservatives lost 10% they those votes are gone will they return time will tell. But That support not moving to the other speaks volumes, it means they don't want what the other parties were offering either.

Life was pretty easy in College as contrast to now, a part time job and a student loan, not much to worry about, though I thought it was hard then couldn't afford the car or steak dinners, just KD and hotdogs, but very little responsibility, aside from keep up averages, and showing up for work on time. Now I have to worry about work, children, saving for retirement, demands on time, bills, reports, markets, taxes, providing for the family, making right career moves. College was a lot easier.

How much of the conservative base realizes that some of the red meat bills are actually private member bills that are unaffected by prorogation. Harpers stumble was not effectively communicating why this was needed before doing it. His sound bites so far have been very ineffective. But the outrage has peaked, not really hearing about in the news the last few days. Aside from Haiti what I am seeing in te way of political news is speculation about a cabinate shuffle, after that the media will be decrying the senate appointments, then we will hear nothing about federal politics, and a whole lot about protesters at the the Olympics and the Olympics itself. After all of that we will hear about the Throne speech and then the outrage from the vested interests over the budget.

Something tells me you didn't do very well in university. I don't doubt that life has it's troubles but downplaying college life because it was simply easy to you doesn't do much for your argument. Kids are having more and more difficulty getting through as the rate of increase in tuition against the rate of inflation continues to rise pretty steadily. Furthermore, workloads are heavier, material is more difficult and access to professors is increasingly getting worse across the board.

I agree that Harper's problem was communication, but it's hard not to see that the reason they had such a problem in communication is because there was no particular good reason. You've shown that pretty well as you've flipped and flopped trying to cover Harper's ever changing position regarding the issue. Despite whatever Canadians may be distracted by, they won't forget. When parliament resumes, those pissed off Canadians are still going to be there. The fact that parliament is resuming speaks to that. That in itself is the reminder. Losing 2-3 points isn't a big deal. 10 is a game changer and those numbers simply won't go back to normal.

The fact that Conservatives are banking on disinformation and cynicism is in itself incredibly disheartening. They're the government yet they'll do better by attempting to get people to forget that there's even a government. It's absolutely and completely awful.

Edited January 19, 2010 by nicky10013

[Alta4ever]

Something tells me you didn't do very well in university. I don't doubt that life has it's troubles but downplaying college life because it was simply easy to you doesn't do much for your argument. Kids are having more and more difficulty getting through as the rate of increase in tuition against the rate of inflation continues to rise pretty steadily. Furthermore, workloads are heavier, material is more difficult and access to professors is increasingly getting worse across the board.

Actually I did fairly well, I wasn't the highest, but I wasn't the lowest. Though looking back those things were said when I was in school about the workloads, the heavy material and high tuition costs. like most I thought I was never gong to pay off the load it took 8 years. Life experience will show you that your problems seem worse in the moment then they really are.

[nicky10013]

Actually I did fairly well, I wasn't the highest, but I wasn't the lowest. Though looking back those things were said when I was in school about the workloads, the heavy material and high tuition costs. like most I thought I was never gong to pay off the load it took 8 years. Life experience will show you that your problems seem worse in the moment then they really are.

I don't doubt it and I have no doubt that things like raising kids are far more difficult. My point was only to say that college isn't a walk in the park and very much part of the real world. Here, most college kids do get out and vote. Writing them off by saying they've got no idea what it takes to make it in "the real world" despite the difficulties of trying to make it through university isn't a good way to win votes.

[msdogfood]

That wasn't really the point. I suspect you know that. But you have repeatedly refused to deal with any of the issues. I just simply can't imagine why anyone, regardless of political or ideological leanings, would so thoroughly sell their wits to any party.

But I'll ask you again. Who is supreme, Parliament or the PM?

The GG has no idea what she is not a pholysie geek like us at all!!!.

[msdogfood]

As opposed to a government who's defense is that it can't Walk and Chew at the same time.

If you think your angry, you should have seen the grimmaces on peoples faces who think this government stinks and they voted for them. Now their attention is focused on Haiti.

very true!!

[msdogfood]

And yet, Iggy won't call an election over Harper's prorogations. Because defending the democracy isn't important enough for him to "stoop"? Or because he wants it all for himself, as-is? Or because he is unsure of success? Who knows, or cares?

That's the really sad part of the story. Voting CPC means supporting Harper's kingly atticks and by side effect further diminishing of the elected Parliament. And voting for Iggy's Liberals means status quo, plain and simple aka inviting anybody else in the right mood (and the right place) to follow Chretien, Harper's etc lead and example. Maybe Iggy himself, who knows (granted, with the right, i.e Liberal justification)?

No, folks, it seems to me that if something good was destined to come out of this situation, we'd have to take the affair from political tweedledums/dees and into our hands. Maybe by writing our MP, but also our opposition riding associations, telling them loud and clear: "it's Liberals for real democracy, or Liberals out, forever" (OK, maybe for awhile, if necessary, extended while). If not their lofty learned in matters political minds, then maybe our lowly prodding could make them notice the real meaning and significance of this matter for the country and its democracy.

All Iggy has to do is let the Press go after the PMO.

OH look they are and there out for blood

[ToadBrother]

I am not spinning that the Conservatives lost 10% they those votes are gone will they return time will tell. But That support not moving to the other speaks volumes, it means they don't want what the other parties were offering either.

You're quite right about that.

How much of the conservative base realizes that some of the red meat bills are actually private member bills that are unaffected by prorogation. Harpers stumble was not effectively communicating why this was needed before doing it. His sound bites so far have been very ineffective.

That's because, by and large, they're BS. The Tories prorogued because they didn't want to face the lawful and constitutional right of Parliament to see any damned document that the government has produced. We can debate all day whether the Opposition should have been digging, but what is undebatable, particularly by someone like you who seems to want uphold the government's constitutional right, is Parliament's unfettered right to those documents.

But the outrage has peaked, not really hearing about in the news the last few days. Aside from Haiti what I am seeing in te way of political news is speculation about a cabinate shuffle, after that the media will be decrying the senate appointments, then we will hear nothing about federal politics, and a whole lot about protesters at the the Olympics and the Olympics itself. After all of that we will hear about the Throne speech and then the outrage from the vested interests over the budget.

You have no idea whether or not it has peaked. The media has had bigger stories. You hope and pray it's peaked, but if it has not, then the Tories ability to control Parliament will be hampered. What if Parliament again demands those documents? Do you think our constitution affords endless prorogations?

Admit it, you're spinning. Now maybe you're spin will turn out to be right, maybe it will turn out to be wrong, but what you're really hoping for is a bit of wish fulfillment. As to your previous stand on the constitutionality of actions, well, I think my little digging demonstrated you don't give a damn about constitutionality. You're just a cheerleader.

[Alta4ever]

You're quite right about that.

That's because, by and large, they're BS. The Tories prorogued because they didn't want to face the lawful and constitutional right of Parliament to see any damned document that the government has produced. We can debate all day whether the Opposition should have been digging, but what is undebatable, particularly by someone like you who seems to want uphold the government's constitutional right, is Parliament's unfettered right to those documents.

Those documents will have to produced If the opposition asks for them when Parliament is resumed in March.

You have no idea whether or not it has peaked. The media has had bigger stories. You hope and pray it's peaked, but if it has not, then the Tories ability to control Parliament will be hampered. What if Parliament again demands those documents? Do you think our constitution affords endless prorogations?

The media will do what it always does, which is jump from one Big story to another, living in the now.

Admit it, you're spinning. Now maybe you're spin will turn out to be right, maybe it will turn out to be wrong, but what you're really hoping for is a bit of wish fulfillment. As to your previous stand on the constitutionality of actions, well, I think my little digging demonstrated you don't give a damn about constitutionality. You're just a cheerleader.

When the Governor Generals e-mail server goes down from the gargantuan influx mail over this then you will be right, but you and I both know that this is a partisan ploy Conservatives ploy to control the agenda, the liberal and NDP ploy false outrage.

If they were really against this the opposition would be advocating removing the ability of the Pm to ask the GG to prorogue parliament. This isn't the case Ignatieff is on record saying he would use this parliamentary tool himself.

[William Ashley]

How much of the conservative base realizes that some of the red meat bills are actually private member bills that are unaffected by prorogation.

Uneffected by being delayed atleast a quarter of year in progressing their status. Sure there bud.

not really hearing about in the news the last few days.

It'll be back on the 25th.

decrying the senate appointments, then we will hear nothing about federal politics, and a whole lot about protesters at the the Olympics

Doubtful, I expect the olympics to actually be ruined in part because of the prorogue. Thanks to Harper for that. Showing Canada as an antidemocratic nation to the world.

After all of that we will hear about the Throne speech and then the outrage from the vested interests over the budget.

Personally I think you are going to have atleast 5 issues of discontent by the time the throne speach comes around.

Also those 3 months may be turned into 6 months when the budget gets voted down.

Just in time for the queen to open parliament. Although I really think it will be a budget issue, see if they can actually deliver a budget with no tax hikes, no service reductions, no reductions in the size of the public service, no other crown corps put up for sale, etc..

When is the summer recess.. get that donkey out of the parliament buildings... 9 months of no parliament due to this guys idiocy is totally not what canada needs. The act places not only the fiscal security of the government at risk but it places the whole of Canada and the well being of the Canadian forces at risk in a time where parliamentary oversight should exist more than ever. Harper is a traitor to the people of Canada!

There are you private members bills beign uneffected.

Oh hold on when an election is called..private members bills die. Hmm, well then.

You think maybe if they kept working, with no election likely they could have passedthe bills. With a new throne speach and a new budget do you think maybe him prorogueing killed the private members bills? Maybe, just maybe. There is your.. oh only the regular bills representing 60% of the work of parliament were killed, that other 40% will be stayed until march then die, meaning we did nothing the last year of our employment.

Edited January 19, 2010 by William Ashley

[bush_cheney2004]

....Doubtful, I expect the olympics to actually be ruined in part because of the prorogue. Harper to thanks for that. Showing Canada as an antidemocratic nation to the world.

Didn't seem to bother China '08 at all....a smashing success. Canada's biggest problem so far has been the IOC barring ski jumpers with breasts.

[William Ashley]

You comparing Canada to China is only demonstrating the point.

[William Ashley]

Didn't seem to bother China '08 at all....a smashing success. Canada's biggest problem so far has been the IOC barring ski jumpers with breasts.

You comparing Canada to China is only demonstrating the point.

[Shakeyhands]

You might find it hard to believe Nicky I was a liberal when I came out of school. Yes even I an "Albertan" sought a post secondary education.

I love it!!!!! You jump right to the "Albertan" thing.... Once again, the Western thing seems to matter to you guys when no one else in the Country cares where someone comes from.

[bush_cheney2004]

You comparing Canada to China is only demonstrating the point.

That's the idea...money making Olympics regardless of the host government.