For those fed up with Harper's undemocratic behavior, tell your MP

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It's a valid concept but that doesn't mean Ignatieff doesn't want to actually win an election. The longer Harper is in there the easier he's making it for the Liberals; if they had their act together of course. We'll see what happens.

Iggy can be a PM for free until 2012, no elections no hope for Harper. Harper can get screwed by this. There doesn't have to be an election.

[nicky10013]

Iggy can be a PM for free until 2012, no elections no hope for Harper. Harper can get screwed by this. There doesn't have to be an election.

It's the easy way out.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It's the easy way out.

Its the SMART way out. This move would fry the PM, force an issue before the courts never before tested and open the door for real reforms.

[nicky10013]

Its the SMART way out. This move would fry the PM, force an issue before the courts never before tested and open the door for real reforms.

I don't think it is. The PM would burn parliament down rather than have to sit as the OLO to a coalition government. He'd be throwing out every ugly stereotype to try and poison the well. He'll be calling everyone seperatists. He'll alienate everyone.

[ToadBrother]

Don't hold your breath on that one. The concept is valid, and it could well see Harper removed as a PM before his holidays are over. I sort of depends on the cojones of those in opposition. The GG could act against the government in this case and allow the "majority" to form a government.

Indeed, there's nothing to particularly stop the opposition parties from forming a second Short Parliament. It would mean all those constitutional scholars would have to dig back a bit further than they have, but there is a precedent of a sort.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Indeed, there's nothing to particularly stop the opposition parties from forming a second Short Parliament. It would mean all those constitutional scholars would have to dig back a bit further than they have, but there is a precedent of a sort.

Of course there is! This would expose Harper for what he is. Besides I think he has asked for it. It would not be polite to refuse after that.

[nicky10013]

Of course there is! This would expose Harper for what he is. Besides I think he has asked for it. It would not be polite to refuse after that.

It would but only to the 60% of the people who don't vote conservative. It would also radicalize the right in this country. The best way to do it is to elect a Liberal minority. It would certainly be more stable. That and if the conservatives lose in an election rather than having power just taken away, its more legitimate. Furthermore, there's more time to watch from the sidelines as the CPC implodes when Harper leaves.

[capricorn]

It would but only to the 60% of the people who don't vote conservative. It would also radicalize the right in this country.

What do you mean by "radicalize the right"?

The best way to do it is to elect a Liberal minority. It would certainly be more stable.

How do you know it would be more stable? The Liberals were in power mostly in majority position so we have very little experience with Liberal minorities.

That and if the conservatives lose in an election rather than having power just taken away, its more legitimate.

I think most Canadians would agree with you.

Furthermore, there's more time to watch from the sidelines as the CPC implodes when Harper leaves.

You mean like the Liberal implosion when Chretien left? I guess every dog has his day.

[ToadBrother]

It would but only to the 60% of the people who don't vote conservative. It would also radicalize the right in this country. The best way to do it is to elect a Liberal minority. It would certainly be more stable. That and if the conservatives lose in an election rather than having power just taken away, its more legitimate. Furthermore, there's more time to watch from the sidelines as the CPC implodes when Harper leaves.

The last Liberal minority wasn't exactly a bastion of stability, and I see little evidence that the Liberals are any more united than they were during Martin's brief tenure. Let's face it, if the Tories lost the election, and Harper some how managed to survive it all, the Tories would be trying to bring down the government at every opportunity.

[myata]

Indeed, there's nothing to particularly stop the opposition parties from forming a second Short Parliament. It would mean all those constitutional scholars would have to dig back a bit further than they have, but there is a precedent of a sort.

I'm for this one. Two critically important agendas:

1) Defending the democracy: it must be shown, in act and practice that this sort of atticks by the government will not be tolerated by the country.

2) Real and meaningful democratic reforms, now. Access to information. Independent watchdogs, responsible to the Parliament. Procedures reflecting modern times rather than those before steam trains.

Will Iggy shake sand out of his pants now, and get to business? There's the question.

[nicky10013]

What do you mean by "radicalize the right"?

How do you know it would be more stable? The Liberals were in power mostly in majority position so we have very little experience with Liberal minorities.

I think most Canadians would agree with you.

You mean like the Liberal implosion when Chretien left? I guess every dog has his day.

Radicalize the right means that in political science there are elastic and inelastic voters. There's about 20% Liberal, 20% Conservatives who have never voted for another party. If the left in this country form a coalition the number in the consevative inelastic voter base will explode. You instantly make it more difficult to win because you're pushing such a large voting bloc into the arms of the Conservatives.

I mean to say that the Liberals would be more stable than a coalition.

There are two types of implosions. The Liberal Implosions and the Conservative implosions. The Liberals just had theirs and were reduced to 77 seats. Horrible. Mulroney lost half of his caucus and then had his party reduced to 2 seats. Considering how unstable the Conservative caucus will be after the great censor leaves, I wouldn't be surprised to see a large chunk of ex-alliance caucus members want to get out ahead of the trend and hop on the federal version of the wildrose alliance bandwagon.

Edited January 8, 2010 by nicky10013

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The last Liberal minority wasn't exactly a bastion of stability, and I see little evidence that the Liberals are any more united than they were during Martin's brief tenure. Let's face it, if the Tories lost the election, and Harper some how managed to survive it all, the Tories would be trying to bring down the government at every opportunity.

Of course he would. Unfortunately I don't think any of these folks have the balls to do what needs to be done.

[myata]

Of course he would. Unfortunately I don't think any of these folks have the balls to do what needs to be done.

Ditto. The old and dusty notion that it's "Liberals or Harper" should be out (especially with Iggy at the helm). It has to become "Coalition for Democracy" or neither, as far as I'm concerned.

[Alta4ever]

There are two types of implosions. The Liberal Implosions and the Conservative implosions. The Liberals just had theirs and were reduced to 77 seats. Horrible. Mulroney lost half of his caucus and then had his party reduced to 2 seats. Considering how unstable the Conservative caucus will be after the great censor leaves, I wouldn't be surprised to see a large chunk of ex-alliance caucus members want to get out ahead of the trend and hop on the federal version of the wildrose alliance bandwagon.

There won't be, if the CPC fails Western Separation will be back on the agenda, the western reform movement was the only thing that blocked in the 80's. I can tell you this the west is fed up with the tyranny of the Ont. Quebec majority, and has been for a very long time.

[nicky10013]

There won't be, if the CPC fails Western Separation will be back on the agenda, the western reform movement was the only thing that blocked in the 80's. I can tell you this the west is fed up with the tyranny of the Ont. Quebec majority, and has been for a very long time.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH. No one in the east ever suspended parliament. Too funny.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH. No one in the east ever suspended parliament. Too funny.

Keep laughing! I for one hope that little Trudeau gets a cabinet post very soon. Once that happens separatism in Alberta will be seen very clearly.

[nicky10013]

Keep laughing! I for one hope that little Trudeau gets a cabinet post very soon. Once that happens separatism in Alberta will be seen very clearly.

For a group of people who hate Quebec and the Bloc for trying to break the country up...

[Jerry J. Fortin]

For a group of people who hate Quebec and the Bloc for trying to break the country up...

I don't hate Quebec, neither does Alberta!

[Alta4ever]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH. No one in the east ever suspended parliament. Too funny.

considering parliament has been prorogued 105 times, that is blatantly false.

Although I can see that you teacher or prof has failed to teach about the motivating factors behind the reform movement and political situation in the west that led to it in the late eighties.

[Alta4ever]

I don't hate Quebec, neither does Alberta!

Alberta doesn't hate Quebec.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Alberta doesn't hate Quebec.

Why do people say crap like that!

[nicky10013]

considering parliament has been prorogued 105 times, that is blatantly false.

Although I can see that you teacher or prof has failed to teach about the motivating factors behind the reform movement and political situation in the west that led to it in the late eighties.

Of course it was explained to me; doesn't mean I agree with it. It was also explained to me why there's still such a reform movement. Conservative and Reformers have been stirring up people out west with divisive regional politics based on non-issues. PET started it all out with the NEP and that was that. Conservatives do better when westerners are angry so they've made sure to keep you all angry with lame duck stories of how we in the east are robbing you which is complete garbge. Ontario puts the most money into equalisation yet nobody here complains here.

Let me put it another way. Up until the turn of the new millenium the Liberals ran the same election advertising across ALL 308 ridings. The Alliance and Reform didn't. They had different messages for each province and different material even for each swing riding. What does that tell me? It said that they didn't trust that westerners would agree to their platforms and promises that they were putting out there in the east because here's the deep dark secret. Even the west needs Ontario to win. It says that the Reformers were just as cynical as every other political party in that they threw their own constituency under the bus to gain power.

There's nothing to the reform movement other than over the top feelings based on trumped up evidence thrown out there by a party who needs people to hate each other or else they lose.

Edited January 8, 2010 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

Why do people say crap like that!

Because they do. Polls during the the coalition crisis showed that disapproval for bloc cooperation was highest in Alberta. So, it's OK for Alberta to seperate, just not Quebec.

[Alta4ever]

Of course it was explained to me; doesn't mean I . It was also explained to me why there's still such a reform movement. Conservative and Reformers have been stirring up people out west with divisive regional politics based on non-issues. PET started it all out with the NEP and that was that. Conservatives do better when westerners are angry so they've made sure to keep you all angry with lame duck stories of how we in the east are robbing you which is complete garbge. Ontario puts the most money into equalisation yet nobody here complains here.

Let me put it another way. Up until the turn of the new millenium the Liberals ran the same election advertising across ALL 308 ridings. The Alliance and Reform didn't. They had different messages for each province and different material even for each swing riding. What does that tell me? It said that they didn't trust that westerners would agree to their platforms and promises that they were putting out there in the east because here's the deep dark secret. Even the west needs Ontario to win. It says that the Reformers were just as cynical as every other political party in that they threw their own constituency under the bus to gain power.

There's nothing to the reform movement other than over the top feelings based on trumped up evidence thrown out there by a party who needs people to hate each other or else they lose.

And liberals do better when bribing other regions with inequitable equalization formuals

[Alta4ever]

Why do people say crap like that!

Ask Nicky because I have no idea