For those fed up with Harper's undemocratic behavior, tell your MP

[nicky10013]

And liberals do better when bribing other regions with inequitable equalization formuals

If that's all you can come up with then the reform ideology is even more bankrupt than I thought it was. It's not abotu regions it's about Canadians. The money goes where Canadians need it. If you haven't noticed, Albertans need it too. I know this is a foreign concept for people to hear because god forbid the CPC tell you(they won't it hurts their re-election chances). Money to help unemployed Albertans is probably coming from Ontario, Quebec and other heretical areas because it goes into one big slush fund and doled out to where its needed. Another heretical point: We're Canadian before we are Albertan or Ontarian of Newfoundlander.

[Alta4ever]

If that's all you can come up with then the reform ideology is even more bankrupt than I thought it was. It's not abotu regions it's about Canadians. The money goes where Canadians need it. If you haven't noticed, Albertans need it too. I know this is a foreign concept for people to hear because god forbid the CPC tell you(they won't it hurts their re-election chances). Money to help unemployed Albertans is probably coming from Ontario, Quebec and other heretical areas because it goes into one big slush fund and doled out to where its needed. Another heretical point: We're Canadian before we are Albertan or Ontarian of Newfoundlander.

In Alberta we sent over 5000 per person in Equalization/year to other provinces, Ontario was the next closest at about 1700/person, BC was next at around 800. Albertans disproportionately contributes more to confederation then any other citizens of this country.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Jerry J. Fortin]

In Alberta we sent over 5000 per person in Equalization/year to other provinces, Ontario was the next closest at about 1700/person, BC was next at around 800. Albertans disproportionately contributes more to confederation then any other citizens of this country.

Equalization = BAD !!

[nicky10013]

In Alberta we sent over 5000 per person in Equalization/year to other provinces, Ontario was the next closest at about 1700/person, BC was next at around 800. Albertans disproportionately contributes more to confederation then any other citizens of this country.

So, how much in total comes out of Alberta?

Edited January 8, 2010 by nicky10013

[Alta4ever]

So, how much in total comes out of Alberta?

The net deficit is about 15 Billion.

[nicky10013]

The net deficit is about 15 Billion.

Considering the size of the equalisation programme is only 14 billion your numbers are way off. The rest of the money that comes out of Alberat is through income taxes and considering everyone is taxed at the same rate, your argument is nullified. The myth of the east sucking the west dry is just that. A myth.

Edited January 8, 2010 by nicky10013

[Alta4ever]

Considering the size of the equalisation programme is only 14 billion your numbers are way off. The rest of the money that comes out of Alberat is through income taxes and considering everyone is taxed at the same rate, your argument is nullified. The myth of the east sucking the west dry is just that. A myth.

http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/2577

[Alta4ever]

Considering the size of the equalisation programme is only 14 billion your numbers are way off. The rest of the money that comes out of Alberat is through income taxes and considering everyone is taxed at the same rate, your argument is nullified. The myth of the east sucking the west dry is just that. A myth.

http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/2577

[Alta4ever]

Total federal transfers

The Canadian federal government budgeted in 2009-10 nearly $60 billion to transfer to the provinces and territories through major transfers (Canada Health Transfer, Canada Social Transfer, Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing), direct targeted support and trust funds – an increase of $6.7 billion from the previous year.[1]

In 2009-10, the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), at $22.6 billion in 2008–09, will continue to grow by 6-per-cent a year, providing an increase of $1.4 billion for a total of $24 billion in 2009–10. The Canada Social Transfer (CST), at $10.6 billion in 2008–09, will grow by 3-per-cent a year for a total of $10.9 billion in 2009–10. Equalization will be $14.2 billion in 2009–10. Territorial Formula Financing (TFF) will be $2.5 billion in 2009–10, an increase of $185 million over 2008–09.

In 2008-09, provinces and territories received about $49.1 billion in major transfers – an increase of $7.7 billion since 2005-06. These transfers were estimated to account for about 17 % of provincial and territorial revenues in 2008-09. [2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_transfer_payments

[Alta4ever]

Considering the size of the equalisation programme is only 14 billion your numbers are way off. The rest of the money that comes out of Alberat is through income taxes and considering everyone is taxed at the same rate, your argument is nullified. The myth of the east sucking the west dry is just that. A myth.

How much again, when we add up the total of the equalization programs we have a number at about 60 billion.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Considering the size of the equalisation programme is only 14 billion your numbers are way off. The rest of the money that comes out of Alberat is through income taxes and considering everyone is taxed at the same rate, your argument is nullified. The myth of the east sucking the west dry is just that. A myth.

Do you know what the word "net" means? Alberta citizens are being raped by the rest of the nation. Please keep in mind there is only one tax payer and that the provinces themselves contribute nothing to equalization at all. Equalization is grafted from our citizens, as well as others, it does not cost the provinces a dime but yet the provinces benefit billions. Go figure it is a net transfer of wealth from the citizens to government, hidden within the system of taxation, that sees more dollars leaving Alberta than come in from the federal government. Now just what part of that do you think Alberta citizens should be happy with?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

How much again, when we add up the total of the equalization programs we have a number at about 60 billion.

Its actually closer to 100 billion since the numbers have been kept. By the way while Alberta has seen 100 billion leave our province, in that same time frame Quebec has seen 100 billion enter their province. Good deal if you are from Quebec.

[nicky10013]

Do you know what the word "net" means? Alberta citizens are being raped by the rest of the nation. Please keep in mind there is only one tax payer and that the provinces themselves contribute nothing to equalization at all. Equalization is grafted from our citizens, as well as others, it does not cost the provinces a dime but yet the provinces benefit billions. Go figure it is a net transfer of wealth from the citizens to government, hidden within the system of taxation, that sees more dollars leaving Alberta than come in from the federal government. Now just what part of that do you think Alberta citizens should be happy with?

If anything that article that was posted says Ontario is getting tuned for by far the most of the loot. Even then, that speaks directly to my point. Only 14 billion is raided from all the provinces to equalize the amount spent of social welfare services across Canada. The somehow absure notion that the net amount of money leaving the province all deserves to be in Alberta is absurd because in the end, some of that 15 billion is going to have to pay for defence and other programmes put on by the federal government which is taken out of income taxes and is therefore equal to the rest of the country.

The whole point of western reform is to say that Alberta and the rest are paying far more. From your own posts that's not true. Alberta pays far less than Reformers would care to mention because you just claimed you paid more than the entire programme is worth. The rest of the transfers come out of income taxes which everyone pays equally dependant upon their level of income.

You can argue the system is broken, but what you can't argue is that it's only broken for Albertans.

When you weigh the 15 billion across Alberta's citizens it sure looks bad. Weigh the money actually coming out from ONLY equalization and then get back to me. What you guys have essentially argued is that Albertan's shouldn't have to pay income tax. Ridiculous.

Edited January 8, 2010 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

Its actually closer to 100 billion since the numbers have been kept. By the way while Alberta has seen 100 billion leave our province, in that same time frame Quebec has seen 100 billion enter their province. Good deal if you are from Quebec.

And this was my entire point. Rack those numbers for how much Ontario has paid to every province including Alberta. Something tells me it's a lot more than 100 billion. Yet Albertans are the only ones complaining. Nobody is trying to steal anything from Alberta, it's just the way it works.

Alberta: They'll take your money, but if you need any...don't bet on it!

[madmax]

1)Thread drift

2) Excellent source on Equalization

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/equalization-program-canada-overview-and-contemporary-issues

3) Back to the origins of the thread.

The Facebook Group is over 100,000 and likely near 110,000.

Iceberg = meet Titanic

[nicky10013]

1)Thread drift

2) Excellent source on Equalization

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/equalization-program-canada-overview-and-contemporary-issues

3) Back to the origins of the thread.

The Facebook Group is over 100,000 and likely near 110,000.

Iceberg = meet Titanic

109,231

[William Ashley]

Do you know what the word "net" means? Alberta citizens are being raped by the rest of the nation. Please keep in mind there is only one tax payer and that the provinces themselves contribute nothing to equalization at all. Equalization is grafted from our citizens, as well as others, it does not cost the provinces a dime but yet the provinces benefit billions. Go figure it is a net transfer of wealth from the citizens to government, hidden within the system of taxation, that sees more dollars leaving Alberta than come in from the federal government. Now just what part of that do you think Alberta citizens should be happy with?

Part of the issue with places like Alberta and B.C. is that their economies are hyperinflated, meaning that everything costs more, houses, donuts, etc.. and to compensate people get paid more. This is why things like income taxes should be tied into the consumer price index for the regions for the minimum taxable amounts. Things like property taxes should be taken into account also. This HST harmonization is problematic though because from community to community in Canada the cost of living varies. It costs a lot more to live in Northern Ontario than south, or Vancover compared to Annapolis Royal. The tax system really should take this into account, and I think once that happens there will be a lot less crying based on Provincial Transfers and equalization. If the Federal Government didn't collect taxes for the proviencs then the transfer payments wouldn't be an issue because the provinces could just tax directly like the municipalities.

Fact is though alberta is #3 in rapingness NOT #1.. Ontario and B.C. are number #1 and #2, regardless of what all the propaganda you read makes you think. Alberta has a lot of Corporate Wealth due to the oil industry, but now places like Newfoundland are also generating oil wealth, so your notion is mostly based upon false premises.

Take into account how much money was pumped into development of the tar sands also. Or the cost of operating military bases in Alberta, or other subsidies like farm subsidies you arn't taking into account.

http://thegatewayonline.ca/articles/news/2009/09/07/experts-say-agricultural-subsidies-hurt-competitiveness-industry

Don't think it all one way, the Federal government has pumped billions of dollars into alberta and given breaks to Albertans in more ways than transfer payments. Looking at one spending area without looking at the totality of spending leads to ignorant discussion.

Edited January 8, 2010 by William Ashley

[Shady]

109,231

OMG! They might even get to 200,000! You know what happens when they reach 200,000? NOTHING!!!

[waldo]

OMG! They might even get to 200,000! You know what happens when they reach 200,000? NOTHING!!!

ya, it will be approaching the subscription numbers for the National Post

[Shady]

ya, it will be approaching the subscription numbers for the National Post

Exactly!

[Smallc]

My goodness some westerners are selfish. Not everything is about you. Equalization is about CANADA...you know, big country, just above the US and across from Russia.

[Hydraboss]

My goodness some westerners are selfish. Not everything is about you. Equalization is about CANADA...you know, big country, just above the US and across from Russia.

We've talked about this before. It's easy for you to say that because you don't contribute financially to others. When you've worked for a while and had lots of extra money taken from your neighborhood to send to people in other places (like welfare or foreign aid), then you can comment.

In 2009–10, the Government of Alberta will receive $3.1 billion in major transfers – an increase of $914 million since 2005–06. These transfers were estimated to account for about 11 % of its revenues in 2009–10.

Feds

Stelmach said in the letter that Alberta's contribution to the federal treasury is "huge," with the province sending $21 billion more in taxes to Ottawa than it receives back in grants, programs and services.

Alberta's input

So let's get this straight...we send $21 billion PLUS $3.6 billion and get back...wait for it...$3.6 billion. Great fucking deal for us!!!!

[ToadBrother]

We've talked about this before. It's easy for you to say that because you don't contribute financially to others. When you've worked for a while and had lots of extra money taken from your neighborhood to send to people in other places (like welfare or foreign aid), then you can comment.

That's a rather odd opinion. To my knowledge, the franchise hasn't been limited to property owners for well over a century.

[Smallc]

We've talked about this before. It's easy for you to say that because you don't contribute financially to others.

Yes, yes I do. I make more money than the Average in either Canada or the US.

[Hydraboss]

Yes, yes I do. I make more money than the Average in either Canada or the US.

The last time we had this conversation you were a student. Congratulations on the job. If you're paying taxes, welcome to the debate. (You're still wrong, but you're now entitled to be wrong Captain Canada).