Making Outsourcing Work for Canada

[Michael Hardner]

Right......Walmart is an example of a good capitalistic business. They recognize that their people should not be overpaid for what they do. If the people at Walmart were paid more than what they are what do you think would happen to retail prices? If Walmart people get paid more than people working at Honda do assembly would have to have their wages increased proportionally to compensate for your communist unbalanced economics. No walmart does not cheat Canada or Canadians in paying low wages because the employment is being done in Canada and the consumer is able to afford to buy merchandise from their stores.

Employment is being done in Canada, but the banks are paying less and the government loses income tax revenue, so it's a question of degree really.

And yes, you're illustrating my point here. If we add tariffs and taxes as you're recommending, prices for services would go up as well.

What you saying does not match what I am talking about. Walmart does not outsource operational departments outside of Canada the Banks are and other companies. They are cheating Canada out of its GDP and cheating Canada out of income tax revenue.

Why do you keep saying 'operational departments' ? What's the difference between operations or - say - project work ? And why do you pick on the banks ? You still haven't explained why companies should be held to a different standard than consumers.

For example, you indicated that somebody shopping in Buffalo has to pay Canadian taxes on jeans they buy in Buffalo. Firstly they don't. Secondly, they might have to pay duty but that doesn't make up for the lost jobs. Wal-Mart buys extensively from China, which costs Canadian jobs and doesn't add to Canadian tax revenues but that doesn't bother you either.

You're just not being consistent, and you're not looking at it objectively either. If you were, you wouldn't be using 'greed' as a central plank in your argument. What's the difference between a greedy company and a well-run company with healthy profits ? It's in the eye of the beholder.

[whowhere]

Employment is being done in Canada, but the banks are paying less and the government loses income tax revenue, so it's a question of degree really.

And yes, you're illustrating my point here. If we add tariffs and taxes as you're recommending, prices for services would go up as well.

I am not talking tariffs on fininshed goods or service coming into Canada or going out of Canada. I am talking about the "employing" of people outside of Canada for the companies day to day functions: IT, customer service, product repair/service, etc. If employing outside of Canada is done, Canada is entitled to its lost income taxes and no prices will not go up because other the market dictates prices via competition. Also, taxes would decreas in general because Canadians will no longer be subsidizing these cheating corporations.

Why do you keep saying 'operational departments' ? What's the difference between operations or - say - project work ? And why do you pick on the banks ? You still haven't explained why companies should be held to a different standard than consumers.

I have countlessly explained what operational departments are. There are proper channels to conduct business if you do not want to do the work yourself. You contract out the work or you are a company to do the work. As for banks, whynot allow foreign banks unfettered access to Canada and to compete with Canadian banks on a level playing field. Canada's banks are protected by regulations against foreign banks. The banks are abusing Canadians in their employment practices and how they are protected from Foreign bank competion. The fact is our banks are betraying Canadians and Canada with their practice. If we allow banks to continue to get way this then we have to allow companies like siemens who use to have manufacturing in Ontario to continue to promote there business in Canada but have channeled all work outside of Canada. Siemens was whining about bombardier getting the subway car deal which will be in Canada versus what they wanted to do is have them made in China and brought to Toronto. How does buying subway cars from Siemens a foreign national building in China benefits Canada's GDP? It doesn't. It takes subway fares and hard paid tax dollars Canadians have paid and diverts it to Corporate Siemens outside of Canada and into China's GDP numbers. As for your consumer angle How is a consumer shopping in China personally and bringing the stuff back to Canada? They are not but the outsourcing company such as a bank is personally going to India and the fruits of that outsourced work is seen by Canada/Canadians by answer of a phone outside of Canada.

You're just not being consistent, and you're not looking at it objectively either. If you were, you wouldn't be using 'greed' as a central plank in your argument. What's the difference between a greedy company and a well-run company with healthy profits ? It's in the eye of the beholder.

I am being consistent and clear. You are trying to twist my position around unsuccessfully I must say. The position has stated countless times. Finished goods and services tariff free. Inputs to getting products or services to finished goods and services performed outside of Canada is subject to a lost income tax/business tax penalty.

It appears you are an advocate of selfishness. You think its ok for a corporation to take from Canada and give nothing back in the way of taxes and employment to sustain the micro economics of Canada.

Edited November 29, 2009 by whowhere

[Oleg Bach]

The decision to abandon our own domestic labour was made a long time ago. It was not done by governments but by individuals who wanted more and more and more power - in effect they took ours - just like a vampire does..Outsourcing is to get cheaper labour of course - but there is no satisfying the blood suckers. Eventually they will abandon even those that they outsorce too...in the end we will all work for nothing under the threat of starvation..that is the peak of capitalism is it not?

[August1991]

Did the institution let you out? You make no sense. How is Canadians and Canada better off if I call a bank and their phones are answered by companies located in India?

Well, how is Canada better off because Canadians get free light and heat from the Sun?

If we can get something for free, or at low cost, how does that hurt us?

Whowhere, do you suggest that we block our windows and prevent Canadians from receiving Sunlight since "cheap labour" Sunlight destroys Canadian jobs in the energy sector?

According to your logic, Canadians should not receive Sunlight. How can Canadian energy workers compete against the Sun which offers its services for free?

Edited November 29, 2009 by August1991

[Renegade]

August, Michael, by now you should see the futility of a discussion with ww. He is neither capable of properly articulating his position, nor is he cabable of seeing the analogies relevant to his position. His only response is to repeat his inconsistent position ad nausem. If I were you I'd save the effort of a pointless discussion.

[Michael Hardner]

I am not talking tariffs on fininshed goods or service coming into Canada or going out of Canada. I am talking about the "employing" of people outside of Canada for the companies day to day functions: IT, customer service, product repair/service, etc. If employing outside of Canada is done, Canada is entitled to its lost income taxes and no prices will not go up because other the market dictates prices via competition. Also, taxes would decreas in general because Canadians will no longer be subsidizing these cheating corporations.

As I have shown, lost income taxes happen in the other cases too.

Prices will not go up because the market dictates prices via competition ? We're talking about banking here, which is an oligopoly.

I have countlessly explained what operational departments are.

I know what they are but the question is - why do you focus on operational departments ? What about project work for example, which is NOT operational work, and takes a significant amount of labour offshore ?

There are proper channels to conduct business if you do not want to do the work yourself. You contract out the work or you are a company to do the work. As for banks, whynot allow foreign banks unfettered access to Canada and to compete with Canadian banks on a level playing field. Canada's banks are protected by regulations against foreign banks. The banks are abusing Canadians in their employment practices and how they are protected from Foreign bank competion. The fact is our banks are betraying Canadians and Canada with their practice. If we allow banks to continue to get way this then we have to allow companies like siemens who use to have manufacturing in Ontario to continue to promote there business in Canada but have channeled all work outside of Canada. Siemens was whining about bombardier getting the subway car deal which will be in Canada versus what they wanted to do is have them made in China and brought to Toronto. How does buying subway cars from Siemens a foreign national building in China benefits Canada's GDP? It doesn't. It takes subway fares and hard paid tax dollars Canadians have paid and diverts it to Corporate Siemens outside of Canada and into China's GDP numbers. As for your consumer angle How is a consumer shopping in China personally and bringing the stuff back to Canada? They are not but the outsourcing company such as a bank is personally going to India and the fruits of that outsourced work is seen by Canada/Canadians by answer of a phone outside of Canada.

Well bringing foreign competition in is tricky politically, but I'm all for it. ING is trying it, but there are significant barriers to that.

I am being consistent and clear. You are trying to twist my position around unsuccessfully I must say. The position has stated countless times. Finished goods and services tariff free. Inputs to getting products or services to finished goods and services performed outside of Canada is subject to a lost income tax/business tax penalty.

I'm trying to find a principle upon which your ideas are based. So far, it seems to be about "greed", the banks, and putting tariffs and not others.

I'm finding it hard to argue against your position because I can't find anything consistent about your position.

It appears you are an advocate of selfishness. You think its ok for a corporation to take from Canada and give nothing back in the way of taxes and employment to sustain the micro economics of Canada.

I asked you the difference between banks being greedy and well-run, as economically it means the same thing: seeking profits. The bank doesn't care if it saves $1 with new technology, or outsourcing. It doesn't discriminate, but it just wants that $1 and any future $1 it can get. As I said, I asked you to answer that and you didn't. Please answer my questions.

My question about the difference between outsourcing companies and outsourcing consumers was answered the passage including this sentence:

"They are not but the outsourcing company such as a bank is personally going to India and the fruits of that outsourced work is seen by Canada/Canadians by answer of a phone outside of Canada."

What does that mean ? Because Canadians deal with people from India then this should be treated differently ? This is economics WW - why differentiate in that way ? And what does that mean "a bank is personally going to India" ?

A bank can't personally do anything. Again, you're taking your approach to be primarily punishment, without consistency.

[Michael Hardner]

August, Michael, by now you should see the futility of a discussion with ww. He is neither capable of properly articulating his position, nor is he cabable of seeing the analogies relevant to his position. His only response is to repeat his inconsistent position ad nausem. If I were you I'd save the effort of a pointless discussion.

I'll give him another chance to answer the main question again.

[whowhere]

Well, how is Canada better off because Canadians get free light and heat from the Sun?

If we can get something for free, or at low cost, how does that hurt us?

Whowhere, do you suggest that we block our windows and prevent Canadians from receiving Sunlight since "cheap labour" Sunlight destroys Canadian jobs in the energy sector?

According to your logic, Canadians should not receive Sunlight. How can Canadian energy workers compete against the Sun which offers its services for free?

Are you a meth addict? There is something wrong with you. The sun is nature, outsourcing is man's domain. If a company were to capture the sun's energy in Canada and employed Canadians to do it, no problem If a company captures the suns energy in Canada and sets about selling the suns energy in Canada yet uses people in India to answer their customer support number this company is subject to an income tax surcharge.

If this same company exports the captured suns energy to India, sets up an office an India, and employs people from India to sell the energy, good. If the company sells the suns energy in India and uses a customer services number from Canada as the company is Canadian fine, however if this Canadian company then uses a customer service number in China to answer Questions for the people in India, India has a right to pursue Lost Income tax Revenue to Recaputure their lost GDP revenue.

[NateNizz]

Your first point makes absolutely no sense. If we finance outsourcing operations with Canadian Dollars, we'll just increase the Money Supply on the International level and devalue our currency... The only thing that can even out the Increase in Money supply, is for inflation to happen. Lets say your economy had $100... If you print another 100$ increasing the total to $200, then prices have to increase. More money = Less purchasing power. If you were a retailer, and you sold an item for 1$ when your economy had $100 in currency.... But the economy's money supply doubled, you would have to increase prices because the dollar now buys less.

If you were to give $100,000 to every Canadian, there income would increase relative to eachother. Money would be worth less, and Price levels rise. Therefore, financing by printing money leads to inflation.

The US is in a scary situation and you can already see the devalueing of their dollar. Its going down and only has further to go down as its a very instable economy right now. The country is being run on debt and printed money (not real). Their currecny is devalueing and the only thing holding it up right now is the fact that CHina has over $800 billion in US treasuries, Japan $700 billion and trillions of dollars from the rest of the world. The world can't handle a large devalueing of the US dollar. If the USD was cut in half, all these countries holding US reserves would lose half of their value...

Luckily the USD has been used a world reserve for many currencies, or we would be in a lot of trouble!

[whowhere]

Your first point makes absolutely no sense. If we finance outsourcing operations with Canadian Dollars, we'll just increase the Money Supply on the International level and devalue our currency... The only thing that can even out the Increase in Money supply, is for inflation to happen. Lets say your economy had $100... If you print another 100$ increasing the total to $200, then prices have to increase. More money = Less purchasing power. If you were a retailer, and you sold an item for 1$ when your economy had $100 in currency.... But the economy's money supply doubled, you would have to increase prices because the dollar now buys less.

If you were to give $100,000 to every Canadian, there income would increase relative to eachother. Money would be worth less, and Price levels rise. Therefore, financing by printing money leads to inflation.

The US is in a scary situation and you can already see the devalueing of their dollar. Its going down and only has further to go down as its a very instable economy right now. The country is being run on debt and printed money (not real). Their currecny is devalueing and the only thing holding it up right now is the fact that CHina has over $800 billion in US treasuries, Japan $700 billion and trillions of dollars from the rest of the world. The world can't handle a large devalueing of the US dollar. If the USD was cut in half, all these countries holding US reserves would lose half of their value...

Luckily the USD has been used a world reserve for many currencies, or we would be in a lot of trouble!

You make no sense. China wanted their 800 Billion in US treasuries and the US said here have some printed green backs. The US dollar is stable in spite of this. As for companies outsourcing Canadian work to india or china they should be subject to an income tax penalty. Any money sent from immigrants to their families in other countries should also be subject to a tax as this money should be available to sustain Canada's economy not elsewhere.

You are economic simpleton and understand nothing.

[August1991]

Are you a meth addict? There is something wrong with you. The sun is nature, outsourcing is man's domain. If a company were to capture the sun's energy in Canada and employed Canadians to do it, no problem If a company captures the suns energy in Canada and sets about selling the suns energy in Canada yet uses people in India to answer their customer support number this company is subject to an income tax surcharge.

So, you mean that I can only use the Sun's energy if it involves Canadian employees?

What if I enjoy Sunlight and it involves no employee at all?

-----

Whowhere, I think you miss the basic point here. Since the Sun offers us light and heat for free, we would obviously be foolish to refuse this free energy. Similarly, if someone in India is willing to offer us customer service for almost free, we would be just as foolish to refuse this service.

You worry about the Canadian employees who will lose their jobs because the Sun offers free energy and because Indians firms offer lower cost customer service. True, they will. That is unfortunate for the Canadian employees but the alternative would be worse. Imagine a Canada where access to sunlight was forbidden so that Canadian employees could keep their jobs. You advocate the same when you want to forbid access to Indian customer service agents.

[whowhere]

-----

Whowhere, I think you miss the basic point here. Since the Sun offers us light and heat for free, we would obviously be foolish to refuse this free energy. Similarly, if someone in India is willing to offer us customer service for almost free, we would be just as foolish to refuse this service.

Pay attention government revenue is falling falling falling - Why why Why, Because Canada's GDP is falling falling falling - why why why, because simpletons think its ok for corporations to outsource operational departments to India bypassing Canada's labour market. What this does is deprive emploment Income and Income taxes to Canada in turn reducing Canada's GDP. Canada and Canadians does not owe these cheating corporations anything. If these corporations like India so much, close up shop, and relocate there.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Pay attention government revenue is falling falling falling - Why why Why, Because Canada's GDP is falling falling falling - why why why, because simpletons think its ok for corporations to outsource operational departments to India bypassing Canada's labour market. What this does is deprive emploment Income and Income taxes to Canada in turn reducing Canada's GDP. Canada and Canadians does not owe these cheating corporations anything. If these corporations like India so much, close up shop, and relocate there.

The decision to outsource is purely economics based. Why pay more for labour than you have to? The same conept plays across the board, companies are profit driven and stockholder accountable. They produce things where the costs are lowest and the profits highest.

[Michael Hardner]

Pay attention government revenue is falling falling falling - Why why Why, Because Canada's GDP is falling falling falling -

Wrong !

Prior to this year (i.e. recession) we have had continued GDP growth:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=CAD

[whowhere]

The decision to outsource is purely economics based. Why pay more for labour than you have to? The same conept plays across the board, companies are profit driven and stockholder accountable. They produce things where the costs are lowest and the profits highest.

Tell you what I will stop this rant when I can go across the US border and buy as many cases of 24 Canned budweiser (5% as well) for 8.99 us a case without any hassle of paying Canadians taxes. I will extend this to lining my trunk with CSA approved Gas Cans fill them up at US gas prices and I expect to come across the border without a peep from Canada. Will this happen, No!! I will get nailed with whatever taxes the border will assess.

I don't get a free ride so no cheating corporation should get a free ride either. I understand economics. The corporatations cheat and lie and the governments take take and take.

[blueblood]

Tell you what I will stop this rant when I can go across the US border and buy as many cases of 24 Canned budweiser (5% as well) for 8.99 us a case without any hassle of paying Canadians taxes. I will extend this to lining my trunk with CSA approved Gas Cans fill them up at US gas prices and I expect to come across the border without a peep from Canada. Will this happen, No!! I will get nailed with whatever taxes the border will assess.

I don't get a free ride so no cheating corporation should get a free ride either. I understand economics. The corporatations cheat and lie and the governments take take and take.

You might want to read this...

My link

Of course you could consume those goods in the US and enjoy the savings.

Edited December 18, 2009 by blueblood