Sucks to be you, Palestinians

[Gabriel]

So you are aware of the genetic disorder that some of us Jews commonly have due to the lack of "mixing"?

It's a good thing things are changing and we're finally starting to "mix it up" a little.

There are several diseases that are more common among Ashkenazi Jews... are you talking about Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis? Many populations have their genetic advantages and liabilities. There are also many illnesses that various types of Jews are less likely to acquire. It shouldn't be surprising, cultures often maintain some element homogeneity by "sticking together" over time. That being said, I think Jews have engaged in more mixing up than most other cultures. We've spread around the world and thrived in all sorts of free and democratic societies, despite prejudices and other obstacles. Anyways, this is too much of a tangent and not worth discussing.

[Guest American Woman]

Perhaps if you own up to making a mistake then you'll feel better.

I feel fine, thank you. Being unimpressed with you has no bearing on how I feel.

link

[Gabriel]

All those European and Russian Jews arrived a few thousand years earlier?

I thought they arrived in the 1900's and less than 10% of the population of the region was Jewish before 1910.

So now you're sub-categorizing Jews in order to suggest that European Jews had no claim to the land. I guess sometimes it's convenient for you to lump us all together, and other times it's more convenient to sub-categorize us. We don't need to be removed of our rights to self-determination and statehood because we are a small population? Who the hell gives a shit about the 10% number? Does a group need to constitute 51% of an arbitrarily defined territory to satisfy your standards for a "claim" to the land? There is a Jewish connection to the land going back MUCH FURTHER than anyone else still around today. We didn't ask to be forcefully displaced throughout the world. And finally, after Jews coordinated following the greatest massacre in history you question the legitimacy of a Jewish state?

First of all, I don't even care about indigenous claims to the land. For either side, it's irrelevant (although it's a losing argument for the recently created group known as Palestinians). What matters is what has happened, and how the powers that be divided the land leading up to Israel's establishment. If you go into some emotional sense of fairness (as you're trying to do with this issue), then we can redivide the entire world into new territories and redraw all the borders. Decisions were made by the powers that be to create a Jewish state, after much lobbying by Jewish groups and Zionist supporters. It's been done. Thank god it was done.

[naomiglover]

We've spread around the world and thrived in all sorts of free and democratic societies, despite prejudices and other obstacles.

No argument in regards to our accomplishments and to our thriving. But it has been done in various societies, not just free and democratic and it has mostly been done without harming another people.

Unfortunately, when it comes to Palestine, we've been mostly wrong. This is because we've elected to step on these people for our own benefit. Zionism, which started out as a good idea, took a wrong turn early in its life.

Israel will not be able to sustain what's happening. Not with the population growth, the emergence of the wealthy arabs and other non-Westerners, the flow of information and the slow but noticeable change in the acknowledgment of the problem in the world community. Another driving force behind the inevitable change is the acknowledgment from the Jews around the world who are accepting that what the Israeli government is doing is wrong.

[Gabriel]

No argument in regards to our accomplishments and to our thriving. But it has been done in various societies, not just free and democratic and it has mostly been done without harming another people.

Unfortunately, when it comes to Palestine, we've been mostly wrong. This is because we've elected to step on these people for our own benefit. Zionism, which started out as a good idea, took a wrong turn early in its life.

Israel will not be able to sustain what's happening. Not with the population growth, the emergence of the wealthy arabs and other non-Westerners, the flow of information and the slow but noticeable change in the acknowledgment of the problem in the world community. Another driving force behind the inevitable change is the acknowledgment from the Jews around the world who are accepting that what the Israeli government is doing is wrong.

Just curious - Is your screen name inspired by Naomi Klein and Danny Glover? Lastly, are you an arts student enrolled in an arts program like "international development" or "public policy"? Just curious how much strongly you match the type of person I think you are.

[wyly]

All those European and Russian Jews arrived a few thousand years earlier?

I thought they arrived in the 1900's and less than 10% of the population of the region was Jewish before 1910.

it rewrites history according to a reich-wing agenda, accuracy is of no consequence...

[DogOnPorch]

Of course there would have been, but peace would've come at the cost of Palestinian self-determination.

No it wouldn't. The Mufti and his clan had their share of what was left after the creation of Jordan and Syria set aside in the Partition. Then the old Nazi would have had his fascist state as he'd hoped. But he wanted more death. More war.

The situation is obviously different, but I don't think you would argue that if the US had just accepted British hegemony, than they wouldn't have had to have fought a bloody revolutionary war, thus they should've accepted the status quo.

Some things are worth struggling for, and for us human beings, self-determination appears to be one of them.

How nobel...fascist self-determination.

By and large they were excluded, the Peel Commission was not concerned with addressing the grievances of indigenous Palestinians - it was concerned with settling the issue of European Jewish immigration to Palestine, and hopefully securing a European nation as a sort of colony in the Middle East by which to influence regional affairs. No wonder it was dismissed as a purely colonial venture by the Arab states.

Nonsense. Both sides got to tell their sad tale.

That's beside the point - they were being forced by an Imperial power (Britain) to give up their homeland so that a new nation could be founded by a bunch of European foreigners.

It wasn't 'their nation'. It was a British Mandate of former Turkish lands that dates back to the Middle Ages. Again...paid for by the blood of thousands of Allied troops who allowed this self-determination you're focusing on

Empathize for one moment (relax, even Sun Tzu said it's smart to empathize with your enemies to understand their motivations): an new Imperial power grabs control from an old Imperial power (Ottomans) and after a period of turning a blind eye to mass immigration to your homeland by people outside your ethnic group and not listening to your concerns about it, the Imperial power decides to cut you a "deal" - they'll set up a separate nation for those immigrants, on YOUR land, and let you keep the other half . . . Not exactly a generous deal from their perspective, is it?

See above. It wasn't 'their land'.

European Jews haven't been in the Levant for 1500-2000 years. They made up the vast majority of Zionist immigration prior to the founding of Israel and during it's early years. When you've been gone that long, and you've settled in other areas, intermarried with the local population, and adopted many of their cultural customs, you don't have any more legal rights to the land.

There were other options, it's just those options didn't match up with Britain's immediate Imperial self-interests.

I for one don't pick and choose on this issue - I don't recognize ancient land claims, period. If we did as a rule of thumb, the whole world, Europe included, would look a lot like Israel and Palestine do now.

It's just a terrible idea.

The Mufti was promoting his own brand of Zionism in the area. Many so-called Palestinians were just as often from somewhere else. Just like Yasser.

Yeah, a 2:1 ratio of immigrants to citizens is problematic and not sustainable, incidentally - this is the ratio that massive post WWII immigration to Palestine of European Jews represented - now you have an idea of why Palestinians felt under-siege in their own home.

Refugees were a "problem" for many folks in many nations post WW2. Too bad...so sad. Had the anti-Semitic Grand Mufti actually agreed with the Peel Commission in '37, the Holocaust would probably never had occured. But alas...he was a greedy as well as evil human being. Seeing what a major role this fellow played in the Holocaust, I fail to see why anyone gave him the time of day let alone power. Hated his riots, I suppose. But it's a mad, mad, mad, mad world. The Brits were sick of the place. Why do you care what this f**ker wanted for a personal empire?

My point is this: that you expected Palestinians in the past to accept a situation that you, I, or anyone else never would have accepted.

You have no idea what anyone would accept, frankly. A god you are not.

As for somebody's comment re: the Arabs there now being there since the dawn of time. That's impossible...the Arabs arrived in the 7th century. Not to mention Alexander hauled the whole "original" lot into slavery after Tyre.

[M.Dancer]

I thought they arrived in the 1900's and less than 10% of the population of the region was Jewish before 1910.

What doews that have to do with the precedeing statement? They used to be closer to 90%...so what? The fact is Jewish occupation is continuous and older than Arab. Further more, at the same time Zionism was in its infancy, Arab and muslim immigration to the Palestine region inflated their numbers as the Turks encouraged Circassians, Bosnians and others to settle there.

[M.Dancer]

the science of genetics says you are absolutely wrong...genetic show the Palestinians to be residents of the area since prehistoric times...

Arabs is inaccurate racial description, it describes a language group not a single ethnic group...today's Muslim Palestinians are descendants of Jews and Christians converted to Islam...Arabic was the language of Muslim crusaders as has happen countless times through history a conquered people absorb the language of the conqueror but that does not erase their genetics...

Genetics trumps all oral historic myths...

Not an oral myth....it's a fact. Notwithsatnding that Arabs and jews are both semites, and the aboriginal inhabitants (canaanites, moabites etc) are semites, which accounts for the genetic similiarity, Arabs (as distinct from Canaanites, moabites, idumeans and jews) disn't arrive till the 7th century.

[GostHacked]

It seems to me that Jews and Palestinians lived fine before Israel was created.

[DogOnPorch]

It seems to me that Jews and Palestinians lived fine before Israel was created.

Best check your history books.

[M.Dancer]

It seems to me that Jews and Palestinians lived fine before Israel was created.

If you overlook the various pogroms....sure...

Sort of like saying plantation owners and africans got along fine 'fore the emancipation.

[naomiglover]

Just curious - Is your screen name inspired by Naomi Klein and Danny Glover? Lastly, are you an arts student enrolled in an arts program like "international development" or "public policy"? Just curious how much strongly you match the type of person I think you are.

I'm an active member of http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org

As far as the screen name, that's an interesting take on it. Naomi Klein is an amazing person and I agree with a lot of what she has to say, but I don't know much about Danny Glover except for his few movies.

[wyly]

Not an oral myth....it's a fact. Notwithsatnding that Arabs and jews are both semites, and the aboriginal inhabitants (canaanites, moabites etc) are semites, which accounts for the genetic similiarity, Arabs (as distinct from Canaanites, moabites, idumeans and jews) disn't arrive till the 7th century.

please define "arab"

[naomiglover]

What doews that have to do with the precedeing statement? They used to be closer to 90%...so what? The fact is Jewish occupation is continuous and older than Arab. Further more, at the same time Zionism was in its infancy, Arab and muslim immigration to the Palestine region inflated their numbers as the Turks encouraged Circassians, Bosnians and others to settle there.

It has everything to do with it.

Majority of the European and Russian Jews that migrated to Palestine only have one connection to the land and that is that they follow Judaism. They had as much connection to the land as the Ethiopian Jews do.

This is why Palestine was not the only location that was considered by Herzl, the father of Zionism. He was also considering Argentina as a location for a Jewish State.

[wyly]

It seems to me that Jews and Palestinians lived fine before Israel was created.

Jews were sheltered by the Muslim world from Christian persecution in Europe particularly the inquisition...

[naomiglover]

Jews were sheltered by the Muslim world from Christian persecution in Europe particularly the inquisition...

It's true. Jews and Muslims lived in relative peace for many centuries. It was Zionism that turned everything upside down and kicked off the anti-semitism we see today in many Muslim countries.

[DogOnPorch]

Jews were sheltered by the Muslim world from Christian persecution in Europe particularly the inquisition...

Only if we ignore the various pogroms...

[wyly]

Only if we ignore the various pogroms...

yes Jews were the victims of pogroms throughout Europe...the word Ghetto comes from Italy, it refers to a foundry in Venice or Milan where Jews were intially isolated as they were not allowed to live among Christians...

[M.Dancer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiraz_blood_libel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

http://www.cijr.com/Israzine/Israzine_V2N21_JewsofEasternMed.htm

[Gabriel]

yes Jews were the victims of pogroms throughout Europe...the word Ghetto comes from Italy, it refers to a foundry in Venice or Milan where Jews were intially isolated as they were not allowed to live among Christians...

Look, you're clearly out of your element on this discussion. He was CLEARLY talking about the pogroms that occurred in the British Mandate of Palestine pre-Israel. You don't even know the relevant history of this issue at hand, yet you jump into these conversations as if you do.

Here are a few lessons that you can take away from this thread:

The population that is currently referred to as Palestinians DO NOT have roots in the land dating back to "prehistoric" times. They are very mixed and diverse, genetically (definitely not culturally or religiously). Look around at images and videos of them, you don't need a science background to know that they aren't some sort of untouched group of people who have been dwelling the land until the arrival of the evil Zionists. The historical claim to land on indigenous grounds is always a losing argument for Palestinians, so don't argue it.

Jews and non-Jews did not live completely harmoniously until the development of Israel. Of course there were touching stories (and there still are many touching stories) of friendship and cooperation between Jews and non-Jews in pre-Israel Palestine and contemporary Israel. There were still very disturbing episodes of anti-semitic violence, though. Clearly you are unaware of them. Stop perpetuating the lie that all was well in the land of milk and honey until evil Zionism ruined everything.

I think there were a couple of other critical errors you made in this thread, but that's enough of a lesson for you for now. You're not equipped to wade into this debate, I'm afraid.

[DogOnPorch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiraz_blood_libel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

http://www.cijr.com/Israzine/Israzine_V2N21_JewsofEasternMed.htm

Some good examples there. Farhud was courtesy of none other than the good ol' Grand Mufti of Jerusalem while aiding Hitler in the Middle-East...as were the various anti-Semitic pogroms in the Levant pre-1948.

[JB Globe]

The historical claim to land on indigenous grounds is always a losing argument for Palestinians, so don't argue it.

What's your definition of indigenous?

Jews and non-Jews did not live completely harmoniously until the development of Israel. Of course there were touching stories (and there still are many touching stories) of friendship and cooperation between Jews and non-Jews in pre-Israel Palestine and contemporary Israel. There were still very disturbing episodes of anti-semitic violence, though. Clearly you are unaware of them. Stop perpetuating the lie that all was well in the land of milk and honey until evil Zionism ruined everything.

I'm going to assume that the "Jews and Muslims did not live in completely in harmony until the development of Israel" line was slightly hyperbolic, yes?

And for the record, yes I'm aware of the atrocities and hardships faced by Jews in Muslim nations prior to the creation of Israel, but at the same time I'm aware that the situation was pretty much the same in Christian Europe as well.

[Guest American Woman]

....I'm aware of the atrocities and hardships faced by Jews in Muslim nations prior to the creation of Israel, but at the same time I'm aware that the situation was pretty much the same in Christian Europe as well.

So in your awareness that Jews faced atrocities and hardships in Muslim nations prior to the creation of Israel, I assume you also disagree with the comments that were made in this thread:

It seems to me that Jews and Palestinians lived fine before Israel was created.

It's true. Jews and Muslims lived in relative peace for many centuries. It was Zionism that turned everything upside down and kicked off the anti-semitism we see today in many Muslim countries.

[Gabriel]

I'm an active member of http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org

As far as the screen name, that's an interesting take on it. Naomi Klein is an amazing person and I agree with a lot of what she has to say, but I don't know much about Danny Glover except for his few movies.

From what I've seen of Naomi Klein (interviews, op-eds, etc), she seems pretty ridiculous on several issues. I remember seeing her name on the list to boycott the latest Toronto Film Festival due to its focus on Tel Aviv. It's unsurprising that you're a huge fan of hers.