Sucks to be you, Palestinians

[Gabriel]

Opinions like naiomi's are troublesome as they have little grounding in the actual history of the area. Not to mention she probably has a poster of Yvonne Ridley and George Galloway on her wall just to keep the latest intifada alive in her brain.

:lol:

She probably wears one of those terrorist scarfs around her neck, as well! The amateur psychologist in me think her obsession with misrepresenting the entire I/P conflict is rooted in her own desires to justify her desertion from Israel in order to avoid military service. Or perhaps she's a Muslim, who knows?

[DogOnPorch]

:lol:

She probably wears one of those terrorist scarfs around her neck, as well! The amateur psychologist in me think her obsession with misrepresenting the entire I/P conflict is rooted in her own desires to justify her desertion from Israel in order to avoid military service. Or perhaps she's a Muslim, who knows?

I was thinking along similar lines. Isn't military service for women in Israel compulsory @ 18 unless getting married?

[DogOnPorch]

I just can't see being drawn into another one-sided thread; when one poster starts several threads all basically having the same theme, I feel as if I am being forced to do nothing but see the bad side of one side of the conflict as the wrongs of the other are dismissed by said poster. I feel this way about anyone who starts thread after thread about the same topic, and generally start avoiding those threads.

It's a standard 'jerk' poster technique. dub was the last to do it around here...start several threads on the same subject...when one gets too hot or you don't want to respond...post in another thread. This makes your opponents fight the same battle several times if they want to counter your POV.

[JB Globe]

Occupations have a peculiar habit of slowly transforming both the occupier and the occupied into terrible human beings.

Given the history of such operations, it's pretty pathetic that there are people still willing to believe that Occupations aren't situations that the occupier should remove themselves from as quickly as possible, for their own benefit.

[JB Globe]

They should have said 'yes' in 1947...heck, they could have said 'yes' in 1937.

Why?

Why should Palestinians have consented to foreigners immigrating en masse to their homeland and setting up a state which excludes them?

You'd never tolerate 60 million Arab Muslims immigrating and carving an Islamic state out of a huge chunk of Canada.

Hell, you won't even tolerate any Muslims or non-white people immigrating to Canada.

[DogOnPorch]

Why?

There would have been peace.

Why should Palestinians have consented to foreigners immigrating en masse to their homeland and setting up a state which excludes them?

They weren't excluded and they were also granted several other countries in the area out of the former French and British Mandates...paid for by Allied blood. Plus, Jews have been in the Levant much longer than any Arab.

You'd never tolerate 60 million Arab Muslims immigrating and carving an Islamic state out of a huge chunk of Canada.

That's for sure. Sixty million anything would be a problem seeing there's only 30 million or so Canadians...even fewer that were actually born here. But to hiptards, this is a good thing as they seem ashamed of their heritage and prefer to promote somebody else's culture instead. Are you ashamed of your heritage enough to let it disappear? I'm not.

Hell, you won't even tolerate any Muslims or non-white people immigrating to Canada.

Rubbish. Many folks have no trouble at all fitting into my Canada. It's you that see racism under every bed.

[Gabriel]

I was thinking along similar lines. Isn't military service for women in Israel compulsory @ 18 unless getting married?

That's right, I think there are nuptial exceptions. Usually women aren't put into direct combat situations, though.

[JB Globe]

There would have been peace.

Of course there would have been, but peace would've come at the cost of Palestinian self-determination.

The situation is obviously different, but I don't think you would argue that if the US had just accepted British hegemony, than they wouldn't have had to have fought a bloody revolutionary war, thus they should've accepted the status quo.

Some things are worth struggling for, and for us human beings, self-determination appears to be one of them.

They weren't excluded

By and large they were excluded, the Peel Commission was not concerned with addressing the grievances of indigenous Palestinians - it was concerned with settling the issue of European Jewish immigration to Palestine, and hopefully securing a European nation as a sort of colony in the Middle East by which to influence regional affairs. No wonder it was dismissed as a purely colonial venture by the Arab states.

and they were also granted several other countries in the area out of the former French and British Mandates...paid for by Allied blood.

That's beside the point - they were being forced by an Imperial power (Britain) to give up their homeland so that a new nation could be founded by a bunch of European foreigners.

Empathize for one moment (relax, even Sun Tzu said it's smart to empathize with your enemies to understand their motivations): an new Imperial power grabs control from an old Imperial power (Ottomans) and after a period of turning a blind eye to mass immigration to your homeland by people outside your ethnic group and not listening to your concerns about it, the Imperial power decides to cut you a "deal" - they'll set up a separate nation for those immigrants, on YOUR land, and let you keep the other half . . . Not exactly a generous deal from their perspective, is it?

Plus, Jews have been in the Levant much longer than any Arab.

European Jews haven't been in the Levant for 1500-2000 years. They made up the vast majority of Zionist immigration prior to the founding of Israel and during it's early years. When you've been gone that long, and you've settled in other areas, intermarried with the local population, and adopted many of their cultural customs, you don't have any more legal rights to the land.

There were other options, it's just those options didn't match up with Britain's immediate Imperial self-interests.

I for one don't pick and choose on this issue - I don't recognize ancient land claims, period. If we did as a rule of thumb, the whole world, Europe included, would look a lot like Israel and Palestine do now.

It's just a terrible idea.

That's for sure. Sixty million anything would be a problem seeing there's only 30 million or so Canadians

Yeah, a 2:1 ratio of immigrants to citizens is problematic and not sustainable, incidentally - this is the ratio that massive post WWII immigration to Palestine of European Jews represented - now you have an idea of why Palestinians felt under-siege in their own home.

My point is this: that you expected Palestinians in the past to accept a situation that you, I, or anyone else never would have accepted.

Edited November 22, 2009 by JB Globe

[GostHacked]

Can't we just nuke the whole are aso no one will fight over it anymore? I recall hearing about peace between Israel and Palestine back in the early 80s. One or the other is going to get pushed into the sea. Until that happens, there will be no peace.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zZhVekDq5Y

Letting your kid ride a bike without a helmet should be a war crime.

[M.Dancer]

The people dying in those ambulances probably weren't born in 1947,

They have better routes for those over 62?

[GostHacked]

Letting your kid ride a bike without a helmet should be a war crime.

The helmet does not stop stupidity. Darting out into the road between cars without stopping to check.

[wyly]

ce.They weren't excluded and they were also granted several other countries in the area out of the former French and British Mandates...paid for by Allied blood. Plus, Jews have been in the Levant much longer than any Arab.

actually it was paid for in Arab/Palestinian blood, it was the local inhabitants that did the brunt of the fighting that drove the Axis/Ottoman occupiers out of the ME...for that assistance they were promised independence by the British...

and Jewish record of occupancy is no longer than that of the Palestinians...

[M.Dancer]

and Jewish record of occupancy is no longer than that of the Palestinians...

Arabs didn't arrive their till the end of the first millenium...Jews a fewthousand years earlier.

[wyly]

Arabs didn't arrive their till the end of the first millenium...Jews a fewthousand years earlier.

the science of genetics says you are absolutely wrong...genetic show the Palestinians to be residents of the area since prehistoric times...

Arabs is inaccurate racial description, it describes a language group not a single ethnic group...today's Muslim Palestinians are descendants of Jews and Christians converted to Islam...Arabic was the language of Muslim crusaders as has happen countless times through history a conquered people absorb the language of the conqueror but that does not erase their genetics...

Genetics trumps all oral historic myths...

[Gabriel]

the science of genetics says you are absolutely wrong...genetic show the Palestinians to be residents of the area since prehistoric times...

Arabs is inaccurate racial description, it describes a language group not a single ethnic group...today's Muslim Palestinians are descendants of Jews and Christians converted to Islam

If you ever go to Israel, take a look at Palestinians. They're as mixed up genetically as Trinidad and Tobago residents. The land of Israel has had so much traffic throughout history, with populations moving and leaving, intermarriages, etc. Of course the reality of history doesn't fit in with your agenda to describe this group known as the Palestinians as being some sort of historical inhabitants of the land. Being there a few generations is hardly the same as what you're trying to allege.

Thanks for the laughs!

Edited November 23, 2009 by Gabriel

[wyly]

If you ever go to Israel, take a look at Palestinians. They're as mixed up genetically as Trinidad and Tobago residents. The land of Israel has had so much traffic throughout history, with populations moving and leaving, intermarriages, etc. Of course the reality of history doesn't fit in with your agenda to describe this group known as the Palestinians as being some sort of historical inhabitants of the land. Being there a few generations is hardly the same as what you're trying to allege.

Thanks for the laughs!

now engineering graduates are history majors too, that's too funny...try read something a bit deeper historically than the bible myths and you may learn something...I wouldn't suggest anything scientific like human genetics that would just confuse you...

[Gabriel]

now engineering graduates are history majors too, that's too funny...try read something a bit deeper historically than the bible myths and you may learn something...I wouldn't suggest anything scientific like human genetics that would just confuse you...

My undergrad was science (biochemistry, specifically), and I took courses in evolutionary biology. I have a casual interest in genetics and how the mixing (or lack of mixing) of populations over time explains various phenomenons - for example the susceptibility or resistance of various ethnic groups to disease. Anyways, everything you stated above is a lie. The Palestinians, as they are now known, do NOT have roots in the land that goes back to "prehistoric" times. The opposite, however, is true. Although the Jewish population has always been diverse, and separable into sub-categories... but I'm going beyond your understanding here so I'll stop now. My advice to you is to stop lying about some imagined historical connection that the Palestinians have to the land advanced by some anti-Israeli (and often anti-semitic) proponents.

"...residents of the land since prehistoric times"... Acting as if you've ever read a peer-reviewed scientific journals on the matter! Too funny. My guess is your experience on the matter begins and ends with anti-semitic "science" common on the web (i.e. Wikipedia) about Jewish "Khazars" from Eastern Europe. Spare me your 30-minute internet career as a pseudo-scientist. Some of us actually have a real education.

[naomiglover]

Arabs didn't arrive their till the end of the first millenium...Jews a fewthousand years earlier.

All those European and Russian Jews arrived a few thousand years earlier?

I thought they arrived in the 1900's and less than 10% of the population of the region was Jewish before 1910.

[naomiglover]

But of course when I pointed out that Hamas is committing acts of terrorism, naomi said it was "reactionary" and that it could have been avoided if Israel had made different choices in 1967.

Her exact words: You can deny it if you want, but the Palestinians would not be reacting if Israel had accepted the internationally recognized 1967 border like the Palestinians have.

So it'll be interesting to see her response to this.

It's good that you're taking action and trying to hold people accountable.

Did you ever get around to responding to the false comment you made about what the Goldstone report had said in regards to the legality of the usage of WP by the Israeli military? I don't believe you did.

Edited November 23, 2009 by naomiglover

[Guest American Woman]

It's good that you're taking action and trying to hold people accountable.

Did you ever get around to responding to the false comment you made about what the Goldstone report had said in regards to the legality of the usage of WP by the Israeli military? I don't believe you did.

Since you were the one who made the false comment, and I clearly did respond, you are now adding another false accusation to what appears to be a growing list.

[naomiglover]

My undergrad was science (biochemistry, specifically), and I took courses in evolutionary biology. I have a casual interest in genetics and how the mixing (or lack of mixing) of populations over time explains various phenomenons - for example the susceptibility or resistance of various ethnic groups to disease.

So you are aware of the genetic disorder that some of us Jews commonly have due to the lack of "mixing"?

It's a good thing things are changing and we're finally starting to "mix it up" a little.

[naomiglover]

Since you were the one who made the false comment, and I clearly did respond, you are now adding another false accusation to what appears to be a growing list.

I made the false comment?

Okay. Here is how you are lying. I'm not impressed.

you: "So the Goldstone Report does not say Israel used WP illegally. Naomi does. I"m not impressed."

me quoting the report: "627. Taking into account the weapons used, and in particular the use of white phosphorous in and around a hospital that the Israeli armed forces knew was not only dealing with scores of injured and wounded but also giving shelter to several hundred civilians, the Mission finds, based on all the information available to it, that in directly striking the hospital and the ambulance depot the Israeli armed forces in these circumstances violated article 18 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and violated customary international law in relation to proportionality."

[Guest American Woman]

I made the false comment?

Okay. Here is how you are lying. I'm not impressed.

you: "So the Goldstone Report does not say Israel used WP illegally. Naomi does. I"m not impressed."

me quoting the report: "627. Taking into account the weapons used, and in particular the use of white phosphorous in and around a hospital that the Israeli armed forces knew was not only dealing with scores of injured and wounded but also giving shelter to several hundred civilians, the Mission finds, based on all the information available to it, that in directly striking the hospital and the ambulance depot the Israeli armed forces in these circumstances violated article 18 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and violated customary international law in relation to proportionality."

Yes, Naomi. Keep reposting that a bajillion times as you ignore my response.

Way to worm your way out of addressing what was raised in this thread.

I remain ... unimpressed.

[naomiglover]

Yes, Naomi. Keep reposting that a bajillion times as you ignore my response.

Way to worm your way out of addressing what was raised in this thread.

I remain ... unimpressed.

Perhaps if you own up to making a mistake then you'll feel better.