DogOnPorch Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 Seems cool unfortunately I don't really have the time for this sort of thing right now. No worries...I haven't had that kind of time since 1985. My point is your understanding of the details is similar to that of a wargamer. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 16, 2009 Report Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) No worries...I haven't had that kind of time since 1985. My point is your understanding of the details is similar to that of a wargamer. It comes from reading books about it and then me trying to devise my own stratagies. Right now I'm reading A Bridge to Far by Cornelius Ryan and critizing all the stupid mistakes that they made, but then hindsight is 20/20. I'm also a little confused as to whether that's a compliment or not. Edited November 16, 2009 by TrueMetis Quote
DogOnPorch Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 It comes from reading books about it and then me trying to devise my own stratagies. Right now I'm reading A Bridge to Far by Cornelius Ryan and critizing all the stupid mistakes that they made, but then hindsight is 20/20. I'm also a little confused as to whether that's a compliment or not. Reading history books comes part & parcel with the hobby of wargaming. Wargaming actually started from miniatures...as did Dungeons and Dragons for that matter. But, wargaming allowed greater flexibility and scope to what was covered. Of course it's a compliment. I've fought Market Garden several times in different forms from both sides. Getting XXX Corp up that highway is no easy task. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Reading history books comes part & parcel with the hobby of wargaming. Wargaming actually started from miniatures...as did Dungeons and Dragons for that matter. But, wargaming allowed greater flexibility and scope to what was covered. Of course it's a compliment. I've fought Market Garden several times in different forms from both sides. Getting XXX Corp up that highway is no easy task. I've got to try to play these games at some point in the future. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Myself and my wargaming buddies subscribed to this magazine. It was dead for years but somebody revived it. http://strategyandtacticspress.com/ Came with a wargame on the cover subject each month. Here's another freebie. http://www.steelpanthersonline.com/main.asp Others here...older titles usually a free download. http://www.matrixgames.com/ Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 British and French yes, and you can't separate our founding nations from the country that followed... Yes we can, those people responsable where French and British subjects, following French and british governments of the time....Canada was not a nation, nor did it have a government, and while those that commited those crimes may have stayed on and later became Canadian citizens one can hardly place this entire mess at the feet of Canadians....Shit we had NAZI war criminals that became Canadians , but we don't share the blame for thier crimes.... And yes the may have had a bounty placed on thier heads, the Beothic tribe is in grave danger of extinction before those British orders where put into effect. Mostly from the reasons i've already quoted... And if your statement holds true, how far back in history do we have to go, the Napoleonic war, crap we could take the blame for both sides point was made by someone that this didn't happen in Canada as it did the USA and I pointed out it did...with the Beothuks there has been a historical cover up to shift the blame to other natives and Inuit when it was very much a settlers genocide, there were bounties placed on the heads of Beothuks...we have no remembrance day for the Beothuks because that would put us in the same league as Nazi's but maybe worse because we succeeded in exterminating an entire people... No you pionted out that it did happen in NFLD while under british rule, and governance...And while our Canadian history is full of mistreatment of our aboriginal people, we did not persue the North American Indian situation like the US did. two governments, two different solutions, I'm not saying one was better than the other. my point was and you as a soldier should know that history is skewed by the winner...others here want claim we're good and pure and would never do what those nasty Germans did, but we have overseas(Boer War) and in our own country... And while history is often written by the victor or so they say, in todays world that is nearly impossiable, as sson as media became of age, and nations kept accurate histories, all one has to do is compare the two...and while in modern times you'll find that history may be alittle scued towards it's orginator, that both copies or sides generally reflect what actually happened... Every nation wants to think it's people are pure and unable to carry out war crimes, but war is hell it changes even the best of us...turning us into something we are not, animals...capable of any act if pushed into it...But in our defence our own history has captured our good side and bad, all one has to do is look for it in most reputable history books. But i think you'll find that these crimes where not carried out on a national front, or from orderes from our government making it policy....Canada did not come up with a plan to exterminate it's UNWANTED, so one can hardly lay that at the feet of Canadians....you may be able to piont out a few Canadians and place the blame with them...but you can't paint the entire Canadian nation with the same brush... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
madmax Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 I don't think I want to expose the professor here on the thread, but if you could give me your input on what course of action I should take that would be appreciated. The Course of Action you should take is to name your Professor. Quote
Shwa Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 What a fascinating thread! You folks ought to be commended on having the wherewithal to observe civility while debating a hot issue that is only sure to grow by leaps and bounds in the next generations. As people forget rather than remember. Or are taught a different version of history than we were in the last generations. Or choose differently. For the person(s) that are "disgusted" by someone offering a contrary point of view to yours, well, remember the soldiers that fought and died to preserve the ability for people to express contrary views in our society. You know - freedom and liberty and all that jazz. The last thing anyone wants is the terror of the majority. We can argue all day about the minutiae of war, it's causes, it's effects. There will never be a consensus except on the fact that it has a profound effect on a society for a given period - usually a significant amount of time afterward. The bigger the war, the bigger and longer the effect. World War II had a much more profound effect on my mum than me for instance. The Korean War less so, but still on many. And so on til modern day. Remembrance Day is a choice because we live with certain freedoms, let's never forget that. At one time, it was a solemn celebration of the end of World War I; then it was morphed into a Remembrance of sacrifices by all our armed forces; then it became a national grieving period; then slowly moved into many meanings for many people in the modern day. If, at the very least, Remembrance Day becomes a time to debate and illustrate the horrors of war and conflict, then it will be worth it whether some anonymous professor chooses not to observe a moments silence or not. If, at the very least, Remembrance Day becomes a time when respect was paid for the people caught up in war and conflict - from the armed forces to the civilian populations, then it will be worthwhile whether some choose to stay home and watch football or go to the Mall. My hope is that one day - a day before I pass away - Remembrance Day will come to mean a day when we can be grateful that people no longer make war with one another and we can use the lessons of the past to guide us into a Peaceful future. I am not going to hold my breath. But I can indeed hope. Which makes Remembrance Day all the more worthwhile for me. Quote
Shady Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Professor: "Why?" Student: "Because it's Remembrance Day..." Professor: "Oh. Well if you want to I guess we can. I don't observe these ceremonies." If it was a minute to honor Che Guevara he'd probably be all for it. As well as the 25% who did nothing. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Or another good read from the Germans...complete online.Stalingrad Diary (Adobe pdf) You might like this one Army Guy Interesting read.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Jerry J. Fortin Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Interesting read.... I simply can't understand why honouring the fallen creates such controversy. Those folks gave their lives for out nation and our citizens. WE owe them far more than we can ever repay. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 I simply can't understand why honouring the fallen creates such controversy. Those folks gave their lives for out nation and our citizens. WE owe them far more than we can ever repay. I think it is because we don't spend enough time educating the latest generation, All the vets i talked to this year, express this concern, in fact the legion spent more than usual doing just that going to the schools and telling them there stories...The Military also hit alot of schools but history takes more than just one 30 min vist once a year... The Vets are worried about what is going to happen when thier gone. who is going to keep the torch burning...who is going to remember... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 I think it is because we don't spend enough time educating the latest generation, All the vets i talked to this year, express this concern, in fact the legion spent more than usual doing just that going to the schools and telling them there stories...The Military also hit alot of schools but history takes more than just one 30 min vist once a year... The Vets are worried about what is going to happen when thier gone. who is going to keep the torch burning...who is going to remember... depends on what exactly you're educating the latest generation on, if it's war is hell you'd be wasting your time but that is what it comes down to, constantly replaying battles and atrocities...knowing how bad wars are does not prevent them from happening again and again...the education needed is that which examines/identifies the causes of war but that's very dry and boring stuff no one cares about hence our political leaders keep repeating those errors... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 depends on what exactly you're educating the latest generation on, if it's war is hell you'd be wasting your time but that is what it comes down to, constantly replaying battles and atrocities...knowing how bad wars are does not prevent them from happening again and again...the education needed is that which examines/identifies the causes of war but that's very dry and boring stuff no one cares about hence our political leaders keep repeating those errors... You should ask that same question to those school kids that have visted some of our war cemetaries in Europe, and toured the actually battlefields in france, such as vimy...or talked to anyone that has walked the ground on some of the NAZI concentration camps....it does lead into other things , more questions,more discusion, and a deeper understanding...it's not so dry and boring, when you can see thousands of Canadian grave markers, or smell the lingering death of the ovens....and while this oportunity does not eist to all our school children, there are plenty of vidios, movies, pictures to drive the same piont home...maybe we can finally get a generation that will not know war... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Yes we can, those people responsable where French and British subjects, following French and british governments of the time....Canada was not a nation, nor did it have a government, and while those that commited those crimes may have stayed on and later became Canadian citizens one can hardly place this entire mess at the feet of Canadians....Shit we had NAZI war criminals that became Canadians , but we don't share the blame for thier crimes....our history as it's taught in school goes back as far as the first aboriginals and the first Viking settlements as part of our history...I was taught all about our great founding nations France and England from the days of the first settlements as part of our Canadian history as what makes us who we are...you can't only accept the nice parts and pretend the ugly parts didn't happen, they did happen and are part of our history... And while history is often written by the victor or so they say, in todays world that is nearly impossiable, as sson as media became of age, and nations kept accurate histories, all one has to do is compare the two...and while in modern times you'll find that history may be alittle scued towards it's orginator, that both copies or sides generally reflect what actually happened...just from my debates on the internet with people from around the world there is a lot of disagreement on what actually happened...Every nation wants to think it's people are pure and unable to carry out war crimes, but war is hell it changes even the best of us...turning us into something we are not, animals...capable of any act if pushed into it...But in our defence our own history has captured our good side and bad, all one has to do is look for it in most reputable history books.I've yet to come across many Canadian history books that are comepletely honest, every country will try to gloss over or ignore any ugly parts when educating it's populace...But i think you'll find that these crimes where not carried out on a national front, or from orderes from our government making it policy....Canada did not come up with a plan to exterminate it's UNWANTED, so one can hardly lay that at the feet of Canadians....you may be able to piont out a few Canadians and place the blame with them...but you can't paint the entire Canadian nation with the same brush...you're right Canada never had an official extermination policy but the extermination is still part of our history... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 You should ask that same question to those school kids that have visted some of our war cemetaries in Europe, and toured the actually battlefields in france, such as vimy...or talked to anyone that has walked the ground on some of the NAZI concentration camps....it does lead into other things , more questions,more discusion, and a deeper understanding...it's not so dry and boring, when you can see thousands of Canadian grave markers, or smell the lingering death of the ovens....and while this oportunity does not eist to all our school children, there are plenty of vidios, movies, pictures to drive the same piont home...maybe we can finally get a generation that will not know war... I've been to the cemetaries, toured the battlefields...my uncle was in a concentration camp...my father was a POW and in forced labour...my older siblings experienced the occupation but this is not what I'm talking about...these are the symptoms of the disease we call war, not the cause which few understand...knowing how bad war can be will not help you avoid future wars, much like knowing a malaria can kill you but without understanding what causes it you're sure to get it...Remembrance Day does nothing to help us future avoid wars... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Gabriel Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) depends on what exactly you're educating the latest generation on, if it's war is hell you'd be wasting your time but that is what it comes down to, constantly replaying battles and atrocities...knowing how bad wars are does not prevent them from happening again and again... the education needed is that which examines/identifies the causes of war but that's very dry and boring stuff no one cares about hence our political leaders keep repeating those errors... Good god, every single post of yours is the same! Why don't you just be honest with your message? You keep saying we need to analyze the causes for war in order to avoid them, then you blame our leaders for failing to learn from these lessons of history. The logical extension is that you blame US for angering THEM and going to war with us. Every single post you make is not-so-subtly blaming the Western democracies (the beacons of freedom and civilization in this dark world) for all the world's conflicts. Of course the most recent conflicts have nothing to do with violent fundamentalist/extremist Islamic terrorist ideology. But even if recent conflicts ARE caused by extremist Muslims, they only became extremist Muslims because of our historical persecution of the Middle East, and of our support for Israel (another beacon of light in a dark corner or earth). Indulge me a little, wyly - Are you 19? Are you an arts student? Are you unemployed? Are you an atheist? Do you vote NDP or Green Party? Are you anti-globalization? Do you hate Wal-Mart? Give us some insight into who you are so that we may better understand the extremists living among us. Edited November 17, 2009 by Gabriel Quote
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Good god, every single post of yours is the same! Why don't you just be honest with your message? You keep saying we need to analyze the causes for war in order to avoid them, then you blame our leaders for failing to learn from these lessons of history. The logical extension is that you blame US for angering THEM and going to war with us. Every single post you make is not-so-subtly blaming the Western democracies (the beacons of freedom and civilization in this dark world) for all the world's conflicts. Of course the most recent conflicts have nothing to do with violent fundamentalist/extremist Islamic terrorist ideology. But even if recent conflicts ARE caused by extremist Muslims, they only became extremist Muslims because of our historical persecution of the Middle East, and of our support for Israel (another beacon of light in a dark corner or earth). Indulge me a little, wyly - Are you 19? Are you an arts student? Are you unemployed? Are you an atheist? Do you vote NDP or Green Party? Are you anti-globalization? Do you hate Wal-Mart? Give us some insight into who you are so that we may better understand the extremists living among us. be honest with yourself, your education is severly lacking... your myopic and the deepest thought you've ever given anything is what type of beer you're going to have on pub night...I don't think your ready to debate with adults here, run along.... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Gabriel Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 be honest with yourself, your education is severly lacking... your myopic and the deepest thought you've ever given anything is what type of beer you're going to have on pub night...I don't think your ready to debate with adults here, run along.... I've got a BSC and a Master's in engineering. I help design water safety monitoring technologies and equipment. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 our history as it's taught in school goes back as far as the first aboriginals and the first Viking settlements as part of our history...I was taught all about our great founding nations France and England from the days of the first settlements as part of our Canadian history as what makes us who we are...you can't only accept the nice parts and pretend the ugly parts didn't happen, they did happen and are part of our history... Grant it the history of those two contries will give us some insight into who we are or what stock we came from. But you can not include thier history in with ours...it was done under British, of french flags and under thier governance....they (those) involved may have later became Canadians, but thier actions before that, are part of France and British history... Those actions taken again'st the the aborignal peoples of NFLD where done well before Canada as a nation was even thought of...Kind of like blaming my kids for something my grand father did...Those men and women involved in those tradgic crimes are where this blame needs to be placed...not on a nation that was not even developed yet.... I've yet to come across many Canadian history books that are comepletely honest, every country will try to gloss over or ignore any ugly parts when educating it's populace... We have those freedoms that allow you to find the truth, even to spread it or correct histroy if you can prove it...besides to get the whole picture one should try and read it from both sides, getting a clearer picture.... you're right Canada never had an official extermination policy but the extermination is still part of our history... Not our history British and french history.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 I've been to the cemetaries, toured the battlefields...my uncle was in a concentration camp...my father was a POW and in forced labour...my older siblings experienced the occupation but this is not what I'm talking about...these are the symptoms of the disease we call war, not the cause which few understand...knowing how bad war can be will not help you avoid future wars, much like knowing a malaria can kill you but without understanding what causes it you're sure to get it...Remembrance Day does nothing to help us future avoid wars... One must first know the symptoms of a disease before one can treat it...If one knows the cost not just in lives but on everything a generation does one might not be so easliy swayed towards the war option...it also sets you up for the quest into the why ? now it's not so boring is it... Besides as long as man has a quest for power, money, postion, and still holds favour for greed,dominance over others....we shall have war... Rememberance day is not about educating you about war or it's reasons behind it...it's about rememberance of the cost, about listening to the names of the fallen, not forgetting thier sacrifice for king and country. it's to give us pause and think, they where all good men and women, who made the ultimate sacrifice so others may not have to....for our current freedoms and rights...everything we value today as Canadians is due to them... I think we owe it to them, after all it's just one and half hours out of your time a year....we cry, we salute, we remember, we drink a beer , go home.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
g_bambino Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 be honest with yourself, your education is severly lacking... your myopic and the deepest thought you've ever given anything is what type of beer you're going to have on pub night...I don't think your ready to debate with adults here, run along.... As per the norm, you neither answered the questions nor addressed the points. The level of maturity you demonstrate does, however, provide a hint towards your age (in general, of course, smallc!). Quote
g_bambino Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Rememberance day is not about educating you about war or it's reasons behind it...it's about rememberance of the cost, about listening to the names of the fallen, not forgetting thier sacrifice for king and country. it's to give us pause and think, they where all good men and women, who made the ultimate sacrifice so others may not have to....for our current freedoms and rights...everything we value today as Canadians is due to them... I think we owe it to them, after all it's just one and half hours out of your time a year....we cry, we salute, we remember, we drink a beer , go home.... Quite right. It's individuals like wyly who choose to turn Remembrance Day into a vehicle for political protest. Rather than merely pay homage to those killed or injured in war, they wish to make it into a day of debate over the perceived rights and wrongs of war, which inevitably turns the already dead soldiers into a football to be tossed back and forth between those who believe they were automatons without the guts or intelligence to stand up to the imperial war machine and those who feel they were selfless individuals who chose to defend their nation against destructive foes. It's rather intrusive, self-righteous, and annoying, really. Quote
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 One must first know the symptoms of a disease before one can treat it...If one knows the cost not just in lives but on everything a generation does one might not be so easliy swayed towards the war option...it also sets you up for the quest into the why ? now it's not so boring is it... Besides as long as man has a quest for power, money, postion, and still holds favour for greed,dominance over others....we shall have war... Rememberance day is not about educating you about war or it's reasons behind it...it's about rememberance of the cost, about listening to the names of the fallen, not forgetting thier sacrifice for king and country. it's to give us pause and think, they where all good men and women, who made the ultimate sacrifice so others may not have to....for our current freedoms and rights...everything we value today as Canadians is due to them... I think we owe it to them, after all it's just one and half hours out of your time a year....we cry, we salute, we remember, we drink a beer , go home.... YES! congrats I figured you'd be the only one to undertsand... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Posted November 17, 2009 Quite right. It's individuals like wyly who choose to turn Remembrance Day into a vehicle for political protest. Rather than merely pay homage to those killed or injured in war, they wish to make it into a day of debate over the perceived rights and wrongs of war, which inevitably turns the already dead soldiers into a football to be tossed back and forth between those who believe they were automatons without the guts or intelligence to stand up to the imperial war machine and those who feel they were selfless individuals who chose to defend their nation against destructive foes. It's rather intrusive, self-righteous, and annoying, really. go to your room, you have no clue... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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