The Ends of Religious Tolerance

[Guest American Woman]

I agree with you, Ghosthacked. My point it that no one knows if god exists or not. Those who proclaim to "know" that there is no god are just the other side of the coin of the religious who claim their beliefs are the "right beliefs/true religion."

As for the parents loving their child, I've never doubted otherwise. I just don't think that their love in and of itself means that they made the right decision. Ultimately it's about the child; not them.

And no matter how harsh it may sound, there's also the medical cost to consider, when there are other people going without needed care. I think it's fair to question why some get millions of dollars of care as so many others go without needed care.

Edited November 4, 2009 by American Woman

[lictor616]

I think some would argue that there's no "palpable evidence" of the existence of a higher being.

And those who believe do base it on evidence. It may not be the kind of scientific evidence you would like to see, but again, we don't have "scientific" answers to everything. We don't have proof that there is life on other planets, but that doesn't mean that their isn't. We know we die, but no one knows what happens after. Some believe in life after death, some don't. Some believe in reincarnation, some don't. The only fact regarding death is that we have no scientific proof as to what happens after. Only beliefs.

There is not a single observable shred of evidence for a concept of god... and certainly not the Abrahamic god envisioned by the confused christians, jews and muslims of today... or any other god from whatever dogma for that matter.

Science has done extremely well in identifying the origins of life... and thus far, the science of evolution and other fields denies the above mentioned gods and doctrines... that you conspicuously think we should "respect" and understand people who want to believe in this obsolete nonsense IN SPITE of the evidence... is beyond me.

We have quite a good idea of what happens when you die... ever fallen out of consciousness? had a concussion... oh that's right... you don't remember anything... nothing happens when you die. And even if we discover that we become some sort of ectoplasmic blob floating about the earth, still, none of this is a validation of the big creeds... ie: Christianity: which is the main one that concerns us here (again).

again absence of proof or evidence... IS NOT IN ITSELF PROOF OR EVIDENCE...

so there can be no reason to give any mind to people who believe in a god... or a fairy godmother or santa clause. especially when the "heavenly minded" end up being moral basketcases like the clueless parents of Julianna Wetmore.

Edited November 5, 2009 by lictor616

[Guest American Woman]

There is not a single observable shred of evidence for a concept of god... and certainly not the Abrahamic god envisioned by the confused christians, jews and muslims of today... or any other god from whatever dogma for that matter.

Maybe you aren't capable of seeing "observable ...evidence" when your eyes are closed and your mind is shut.

Science has done extremely well in identifying the origins of life... and thus far, the science of evolution and other fields denies the above mentioned gods and doctrines... that you conspicuously think we should "respect" and understand people who want to believe in this obsolete nonsense IN SPITE of the evidence... is beyond me.

The difference between you and me is that you think you know the answer to questions people have been pondering since the beginning of time, and I realize neither one of us knows the answer. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, and everyone else believes they they believe. Some, like you, may claim to "know," but all you "know" is your own beliefs.

We have quite a good idea of what happens when you die... ever fallen out of consciousness? had a concussion... oh that's right... you don't remember anything... nothing happens when you die.

Falling unconscious and having a concussion are very different things from dying. Your claim that nothing happens when you die is, again, your belief. No more, no less. The fact is that no one knows what happens when we die.

And even if we discover that we become some sort of ectoplasmic blob floating about the earth, still, none of this is a validation of the big creeds... ie: Christianity: which is the main one that concerns us here (again).

Again, that's your belief. No more, no less.

again absence of proof or evidence... IS NOT IN ITSELF PROOF OR EVIDENCE...

Nor is it disproof.

so there can be no reason to give any mind to people who believe in a god... or a fairy godmother or santa clause. especially when the "heavenly minded" end up being moral basketcases like the clueless parents of Julianna Wetmore.

I'm sure you'll find "moral basket cases" among the non-religious, too. If you think everyone who isn't religious thinks like you do, would do whatever you would choose to do, you're mistaken.

Edited November 5, 2009 by American Woman

[lictor616]

Maybe you aren't capable of seeing "observable ...evidence" when your eyes are closed and your mind is shut.

I envy your knowledge, tell me of this evidence of god that you process... i'm dying to hear it.

[lictor616]

Nor is it disproof.

disproving something requires a claim that something exists...

for instance: disproving the existence of santa claus... or the jackrabbit. these things came to be, because people produced evidence of their existence (however flimsy)...

Likewise god has to first be "dreamed up, explained and demonstrated" before it can be DISPROVED.

Which means someone has to say, that the sun is the eye of jesus's big poppa up in space or something, and then we can go about disproving it...

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever attempted to produce evidence of god ( either a autographed rock, or star or special gas, or anything)...

his existence is purely nondescript... no one has PROOF OF GOD... how then can one DISPROVE IT?

really there is as much reason to believe in the existence of mermaids, as "god" especially the one of the three desert dogmas... (again the only ones that need concern us here- and Julianna'S parents)

[Guest American Woman]

I envy your knowledge, tell me of this evidence of god that you process... i'm dying to hear it.

One thing I'll never do is discuss my beliefs with someone who has a closed mind. Why would I? Unlike you, I have no desire to convince you that I'm right. In fact, I've never even said what my beliefs are. That's not the issue I've raised; the issue is that you don't know, I don't know, no one knows. All we have are our beliefs. And that is the only fact in our entire exchange.

[GostHacked]

Maybe you aren't capable of seeing "observable ...evidence" when your eyes are closed and your mind is shut.

I can't say for Lictor, but I have had a very open mind since I was a child.

Falling unconscious and having a concussion are very different things from dying. Your claim that nothing happens when you die is, again, your belief. No more, no less. The fact is that no one knows what happens when we die.

Actually we know a good deal of what happens when you die. All your vital organs shut down and the spark of life quickly fades away. Doctors know quite a bit about it. And even after you die, what is left of you is thrown in the basement for cold storage untill you are thrown into the ground or creamated.

For me, it's a lingering notion that when my time is up, thats it. There is no light at the end of this tunnel. You won't even know you are gone. No do overs, last life .. no respawns. Death is about the most permanent thing there ever was.

[lictor616]

One thing I'll never do is discuss my beliefs with someone who has a closed mind. Why would I? Unlike you, I have no desire to convince you that I'm right. In fact, I've never even said what my beliefs are. That's not the issue I've raised; the issue is that you don't know, I don't know, no one knows. All we have are our beliefs. And that is the only fact in our entire exchange.

yes we all have our beliefs, but more importantly, we have different standards for accepting our beliefs... I believe things out of evidence, others believe them out of blind faith. That's an important distinction.

And how typical of a "defender of god" to not want to show me her evidence for her reasoning... what is this a shell game?

[lictor616]

For me, it's a lingering notion that when my time is up, thats it. There is no light at the end of this tunnel. You won't even know you are gone. No do overs, last life .. no respawns. Death is about the most permanent thing there ever was.

Well that's sooooo negative... I mean no Jesus descending on a chariot made of gold diamonds, chocolate and feathers? lol

[Michael Hardner]

lictor,

yes we all have our beliefs, but more importantly, we have different standards for accepting our beliefs... I believe things out of evidence, others believe them out of blind faith. That's an important distinction.

And how typical of a "defender of god" to not want to show me her evidence for her reasoning... what is this a shell game?

Really ? Where's your evidence that the Queen of England is Jewish ? And speculating on symbols on the throne doesn't constitute evidence by the way.

[Guest American Woman]

I can't say for Lictor, but I have had a very open mind since I was a child.

I think anyone who doesn't claim to have the answer has an open mind.

Actually we know a good deal of what happens when you die. All your vital organs shut down and the spark of life quickly fades away. Doctors know quite a bit about it. And even after you die, what is left of you is thrown in the basement for cold storage untill you are thrown into the ground or creamated.

I meant what happens after death, of course. And yes, what we do with the body is no mystery, but what happens to the soul, the person's essence, that's not as certain. After all, the body is just the package for the person inside.

For me, it's a lingering notion that when my time is up, thats it. There is no light at the end of this tunnel. You won't even know you are gone. No do overs, last life .. no respawns. Death is about the most permanent thing there ever was.

So death, in your opinion, is about the most permanent thing there ever was.

But even birth is a death, in a way. It's the end of life in the womb; certainly a much difference experience exists after. It's leaving one world and entering another. So who's to say there isn't something after the body gives way? Who's to say we don't leave this existence and enter another (again)?

Sometimes I want to believe there's nothingness after death, other times it doesn't make sense that there's nothing more. I can't make sense of those who are born into suffering, innocent children, if there's nothing good at all in their existence. So maybe there is something after to make up for a life of suffering.

Bottom line. Be have our beliefs, but again, we don't know.

[charter.rights]

I can't say for Lictor, but I have had a very open mind since I was a child.

Actually we know a good deal of what happens when you die. All your vital organs shut down and the spark of life quickly fades away. Doctors know quite a bit about it. And even after you die, what is left of you is thrown in the basement for cold storage untill you are thrown into the ground or creamated.

For me, it's a lingering notion that when my time is up, thats it. There is no light at the end of this tunnel. You won't even know you are gone. No do overs, last life .. no respawns. Death is about the most permanent thing there ever was.

We only know what happens....within the limitations of belief.

It is like looking for a glove in a sock drawer. It is easily identified because the glove may be out of place. However, no one considers what it would be like if the glove looked like a sock, and was indistinguishable from the other socks in the drawer. Finding differences would be more difficult.

I remember reading a story about how Merlin once showed then Prince Arthur a room full of furniture and then later told him to go in the same room with all the light completely blocked out. Arthur stumbled around in the dark, trying to avoid where he imagined (but could not see) the table and chairs to be, so he wouldn't get hurt. After about an hour of stumbling around in the dark, Merlin uncovered the window. Arthur had discovered that the room was void of any furniture and all his distress was over nothing....

150 years ago doctors (and before them scientists) believed that death could be certified when the person stopped breathing. Then 100 years ago they discovered that death continued on until the heart stopped beating, only to discover more recently in the last 50 years that brain activity continued well beyond both. We have even discovered that in certain hypothermia situations that brain activity is slowed to almost non-existent.

The point is that our definition of death is relative to the "belief" we hold. If you believe that it is lights out, no doubt that is how you will not only experience it but witness to it as well. On the other hand, those who hold the belief that death is but a transition from one state to another will experience their own belief, as well. And just like we choose to have bad (and good) things happen to use, we choose how we will die, and what experience we receive from it. That could be expressed as a form of God-being, or as an atheistic experience depending on your religious beliefs.

Nonetheless we cannot know what death is because we don't even have a clue what life really is, except both are illusions.

Edited November 5, 2009 by charter.rights

[lictor616]

lictor,

Really ? Where's your evidence that the Queen of England is Jewish ? And speculating on symbols on the throne doesn't constitute evidence by the way.

I've already quoted the Jewish Book of Why, on this 4 times in these forums... mentioning an article written by the royal rabbinical mohels of London stating quite clearly that the males of every Royal male was ritually circumcised by the mohel of London... its a 400 year tradition. The queen is also gran patroness of the Masonic order, which has kabbalistic initiation ceremonies, there's also the fact that the COburgs of the Royal family are jews... Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was a confessed jew... many other things point to the same direction, not merely the speculation of symbology.

Edited November 5, 2009 by lictor616

[M.Dancer]

Question: Is there a God?

Agnostic: The answer is not possible for us to know

Theist: I know the answer to the question

Atheist: The question is irrelevant

Believe or not I'm in line with Lictor on this. There is no rational reason* to have any belief in God.

*other than a deeply personal one.

Now is there a rational reason not to believe in God?

Doesn't matter, the question is irrelevant

[charter.rights]

Question: Is there a God?

Agnostic: The answer is not possible for us to know

Theist: I know the answer to the question

Atheist: The question is irrelevant

Believe or not I'm in line with Lictor on this. There is no rational reason* to have any belief in God.

*other than a deeply personal one.

Now is there a rational reason not to believe in God?

Doesn't matter, the question is irrelevant

Even those who hold science as the answer to all things, have religious beliefs.

[lictor616]

Sometimes I want to believe there's nothingness after death, other times it doesn't make sense that there's nothing more. I can't make sense of those who are born into suffering, innocent children, if there's nothing good at all in their existence. So maybe there is something after to make up for a life of suffering.

Bottom line. Be have our beliefs, but again, we don't know.

Nothing good ? according to who? What are your standards for judging "good" ? the bible? Why should something be there to make up for things? If a dog is beaten... does he go to dog heaven while other well treated dogs go to doggy purgatory or hell? I mean again, what is your reasoning for this? Why do you think in terms of "there has to be" at all?

because you want there to be an afterlife? That's usually the case... people think that there's some cosmic force that ordains what individuals think is god and right (in their subjective way).

[M.Dancer]

Even those who hold science as the answer to all things, have religious beliefs.

Some no doubt do, but atheism is not a belief, it is the absence of belief.

[GostHacked]

Well that's sooooo negative... I mean no Jesus descending on a chariot made of gold diamonds, chocolate and feathers? lol

The only negative about death is that you are no longer alive. It's a one way trip unless some doctor steps in.

American Woman

But even birth is a death, in a way. It's the end of life in the womb; certainly a much difference experience exists after. It's leaving one world and entering another. So who's to say there isn't something after the body gives way? Who's to say we don't leave this existence and enter another (again)?

We simply have no idea. So this ends up to be a philysophical debate that has no end. AW you seem to be more of an agnostic than a religous to me. You know the answer cannot be known, but yet the belief tells you you know. Faith might be mistaken for knowledge.

So death, in your opinion, is about the most permanent thing there ever was.

Yes. No one has ever came back from death after 3 days. Not even Jesus. it might be something like he was put into a state of suspended animation for those 3 days and not actualy dead. Because what we understood as death at that time has been redefined. So Jesus died only once. There was no do over.

Charter.rights

150 years ago doctors (and before them scientists) believed that death could be certified when the person stopped breathing. Then 100 years ago they discovered that death continued on until the heart stopped beating, only to discover more recently in the last 50 years that brain activity continued well beyond both. We have even discovered that in certain hypothermia situations that brain activity is slowed to almost non-existent

It's because science gave us the insight to this. As we gain more knowledge about it we discover more. We might even one day find some empirical evidence that might support the god theory (the god theory is more of a hypothesis at this stage), however I am not going to get my hopes up for something that for all intents and purposes, is not there.

[Guest American Woman]

Nothing good ? according to who? What are your standards for judging "good" ?

I would say someone born into a life of suffering, who knows nothing else during their time on earth other than a struggle for survival, pain, and death, would not have known the "good" side of life.

the bible?

Of course not. I have common sense. I have knowledge. I have empathy.

Why should something be there to make up for things?

By the same token, why shouldn't there be? It seems it would be the "right thing" if one left a world of suffering to something better. I wonder why some are born into a world of love, health, shelter, enough food, etc. while some are born into a world that holds none of those things. Perhaps the answer is that there's something better waiting beyond this world. There's no reason why this world, why life as we know it, should be the only world/existence.

If a dog is beaten... does he go to dog heaven while other well treated dogs go to doggy purgatory or hell? I mean again, what is your reasoning for this? Why do you think in terms of "there has to be" at all?

I didn't say "there has to be," did I? I said "perhaps." And while I said maybe there's something better waiting for those who have known nothing but suffering, I never once suggested punishment for those who had it good, so I seriously have no idea where all your reference to purgatory and hell is coming from.

because you want there to be an afterlife?

Considering I clearly said "sometimes I hope there's nothingness," I would think it would be clear that I, personally, don't want there to be an afterlife. But then, in my limited wisdom, what do I know of what would be best?

That's usually the case... people think that there's some cosmic force that ordains what individuals think is god and right (in their subjective way).

You're right about one thing; people do "think," and that's why they have different beliefs. And sometimes people admit that in their human limitations, they don't have/know the answers; while others falsely think that they have the answers.

[lictor616]

Even those who hold science as the answer to all things, have religious beliefs.

there is a difference between belief and NON-BELIEF. Atheism is NOT a belief but absence of it.

[lictor616]

I would say someone born into a life of suffering, who knows nothing else during their time on earth other than a struggle for survival, pain, and death, would not have known the "good" side of life.

We and our planet and our entire solar system are infinitesimal motes in a galaxy that is itself an insignificant part of the known universe.

We live in a universe in which all organic life is a rare and utterly insignificant epiphenomenon, meaningless on the scale of the majestic and eternal movements of stars and galaxies. It is only to the animals it has produced that organic life has any importance, but it is the whole of life to them.

We organisms live in a hostile world, the tiger may not see itslef as an evil creature but in the eyes of its prey, the tiger is indeed an evil creature.

Our pain, suffering and happiness affect nothing in the infinitely immense movement of the galaxies.

They may be important to us, but the the forces of nature they are not in themselves "good or evil" nature knows of no such concepts... they exist only to humans (and are extremely subjective even at that)...

---- edit- taken from Francis Parker Yokey/REvilo Pendleton Oliver's "The Enemy of Our Enemies, The Enemy of Europe" 1981 liberty bell publications, pp-128

Edited November 5, 2009 by lictor616

[M.Dancer]

We and our planet and our entire solar system are infinitesimal motes in a galaxy that is itself an insignificant part of the known universe.

We live in a universe in which all organic life is a rare and utterly insignificant epiphenomenon, meaningless on the scale of the majestic and eternal movements of stars and galaxies. It is only to the animals it has produced that organic life has any importance, but it is the whole of life to them.

We organisms live in a hostile world, the tiger may not see itslef as an evil creature but in the eyes of its prey, the tiger is indeed an evil creature.

Our pain, suffering and happiness affect nothing in the infinitely immense movement of the galaxies.

They may be important to us, but the the forces of nature they are not in themselves "good or evil" nature knows of no such concepts... they exist only to humans (and are extremely subjective even at that)...

Would you be so kind and plagiarize someone less repulsive

http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/sane2.htm

[Michael Hardner]

Oddly plagiarized, and yet matches the surrounding text. Lictor ?

[GostHacked]

Would you be so kind and plagiarize someone less repulsive

http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/sane2.htm

Damn I cannot see the site!!!

{The site you are trying to reach has been blocked and logged by the content filter. The site has been categorized as Violence/Hate/Racism.}

You don't say!.

Pretty interesting though Mr Dancer.

[M.Dancer]

Damn I cannot see the site!!!

{The site you are trying to reach has been blocked and logged by the content filter. The site has been categorized as Violence/Hate/Racism.}

You don't say!.

Pretty interesting though Mr Dancer.

Just hope I don't get into trouble for noticing it and commenting on it.