Canadian Identity: un-American

[Griz]

Actually Canada is nothing like the US but a mooch and a leach to American Culture and economic inovation. Who brought the world the internet? Canada contributes nothing but cultural immolation and the pursuit of exploiting its people while the goverment tit sucking crats siphon off the tax revenues for their own benefits at the expense of Canada's inovation and future. Thanks to the Conservatives and the Government leaches Canada is has a slipping GDP relative to other emerging Countries. Canada's greedy businesses are jacking up retail costs over that of the US just because they can get away with it. Canada has a GST which actually hurts the economy by taking money out of the economy that is needed to sustain it. The US has figured out their tax structure and maybe they have deficits but not everything is at it seems. The US operates in abstract economics which the conservatives can only dream of ever understanding. Because we have losers running the country Canada infrasture will continue to erode and rust away along with any world inovation with it.

Have a look at the US versus Canada

Lower Retail Costs, check => Canada bzzzzzzzzzz

Lower Taxes, check => Canada bzzzzzzzzz

More Stat holidays, check => Canada bzzzzzzzz Canada is so ungrateful they don't have Nov 11 as stat to honor those who stood for freedom and democracy. This is so because we know what's in the hearts and minds of the Conservatives and Canadians in general.

Higher wages, check => Canada bzzzzzzzzzzz

A just legal system, check => Canada bzzzzzzz - good luck finding lawyers who will stand on right and wrong

A growing population and infrasture, Check => Canada bzzzzz - Canada is a world whore of immigrants at the expense of its heritage. Canada will put the world's people before its own people. That is the kind of people Canadian's really are. Nothing but sell out of ideals and common decency. As I said if anyone ever sees someone show casing a Canadian patch in foreign Country I would see as a call for that person to get a severe beating for their arrogance.

Canada needs to get the Sell out Conservatives out and do it before they wreck the Country any further.

Wow another person that actually makes sense...has smallc and charter welcomed you? Or thanked you...

[kimmy]

I heard that deciding Whowhere makes a lot of sense is one of the most reliable signs that you're suffering from a concussion.

-k

[Smallc]

Wow another person that actually makes sense...has smallc and charter welcomed you?

Edited November 9, 2009 by Smallc

[jbg]

That's certainly a part of Canada's identity, but it isn't the entirety of it.

The problem with rampant multiculturalism as a policy is by definition it believes in everything, which means it believes in nothing.

***************

What's our identity? How about "International Lapdog"

Canada is just a Country of Convenience and a place for people to become citizens of convenience... so a real Canadian Identity is we are just a lazy cheap country that sells out our values for a buck...

Canada has a glorious history of being fighters for and believers in freedom. Few enemy countries wanted to tangle with Canadian troops in either of the World Wars. When human needs arise around the world, and even in the (somewhat disliked) U.S. Canada is there.

Why not emphasize the great and the positive?

Edited November 9, 2009 by jbg

[Anacoluthe]

I think we should keep in mind that the Confederation was partly made to dissuade the USA from attacking the Brits colony of North America after the Civil War. In those old days, USA was a very expansionist country and they were angry for the support Britain had given to the South in the Civil War. (And for this part, it worked well since the USA finally choose to move west and after that go toward Mexico and Cuba for their expansion)

So yes, to some extent, NOT BEEING american is a part of the Canadian identity. But it's a legitimate part of our identity. We should remember that the USA are our "traditional ennemy"... or at least the closest thing to that. Ok, now times have changed a lot and the USA move from closest ennemy to closest friend, but the Canada is borned from the will of it citizen to not become american.

After saying so, does the Canadian identity is something more? OF COURSE!

Indeed, beeing a Quebecois, to me it's extremely obvious how much I'm different from an american (language and culture are both very very different). But even in my non-english-mother-tongue-speaker eyes, the english-speaking Canadian are very very different from american too.

Ok, you share almost the same language... I say almost because it's true that American speak... well... American while the Canadian speak english (it's a bit like how here we speak a different french language than in Europe). But sharing a closely-related language and beeing able to listen the same TV shows doesn't seal the deal fro beeing the same.

Just look at the religion: In the USA, religion is something extremely important even in the public life. Here, in Canada, religion importance is much more discret... and please don't tell me that religion is not a strong aspect of a cultural identity!

Another very important point: The way Canadian perceive beeing successful. In the USA, beeing successful is often directly linked with HAVING money (not making money)... whatever you get it from your wealthy family or you climb yourself all the step to success: only the final result count. While in Canada, the personal path in life is much more important... This specific value is at the core of our fairer (free) healthcare system and our better education system (more effective teaching up to the high school and then, MUCH cheaper/fairer way to reach university). It's because in Canada we beleive that, up to a big extent, we should provide a basic egality of chances for everyone to succeed if they make their own effort.

Also, the way we conceive multiculturalism is quite different in Canada than it is in the USA. While in the USA they accept immigrant essentially because it's their traditional position. There's no real interest for the newcommer (and it seem none at all when they come from Mexico). In Canada, immigration is important; new cultures are considered as a valuable asset. (well, not as much as before when you listen some right-wing comment but still... they are'nt as bad as the USA right-wing comment about illegal Mexican immigration... nothing close to)

Something funny to notice. In Quebec, when we were doing the Bouchard-Taylor commission (about reasonnable accommodement), the people who speak out the loudest against the religious accomodement wasn't the white french speaking Quebecer, but the newcomers. It was them who stand up to basically say: "Hey guys, we know you aren't racist or abusive with us and now it's time that you stand up a bit to put limit on this to protect your own culture, there's no shame in this." I guess they are perfectly aware of the Canadian identity and since they came here for a reason, most of them don't want to see it disappear.

Now if you look at what we share as value with the USA... well... I would say it's a mistake to say that we share American values. Truth is: we share post-WWII-western-world value with the USA... as the France, Japan, UK, Germany, Italy, spain, etc. do. Most of these values don't come from the Americans anyway... most of them come from the French writer of the 18th century and the Americans choose to adopt them after the Independance War. If you call them Americans values because Americans share them and it's a part of their identity, it's ok... but keep in mind that freedom of speech, the individualism and the like are basically values developped (but of course not enforced by the french monarchy) by the french in the 18th century.

The difference between the way of life of all those value are much more linked to ressource availability, geography and climatic condition than anything else. Beeing in North America, like the American, we have a good supply of natural ressources, space is cheap (while in Japan and europe it's expansive), energy is cheap... So, like the American, we tend to have a way of life that use big house and use a lot of energy... our cities also tend to expand much more than elsewhere because space is available.

If you beleive that Canadian have almost the same identity as the American, then point me out the specific American values that english canadian share with the US and do not share with the other western country AND that are not linked to the fact that we have a tremenduously big supply of energy, space and natural ressources available.

So in the end: nope, Canadian identity isn't just a matter of not beeing american.

Oh, and by the way: It's true that having a canadian flag on your backpack grant you an almost automatic positive and friendly response from everyone all over the world. And when you're doing some hitchhiking, the cars drivers don't have the opportunity to listen what your accent is.

[wulf42]

So what does it mean to be Canadian... not a damned thing....

Its just a line in the sand.. that divides the land that don't know the difference if over there is the USA or Canada...

There is no REAL Canadian Identity, We have no patriotism, or if we do we sure don't show it, or show we are proud to be Canadian.

Canada is just a Country of Convenience and a place for people to become citizens of convenience... so a real Canadian Identity is we are just a lazy cheap country that sells out our values for a buck...

So in other words, we are just like the USA.

Dead on right.....Canada has no real identity like the Americans

we are just a mish mash of this and that and any culture we

may have had has been hijacked by other cultures!

Edited November 10, 2009 by wulf42

[Michael Hardner]

A,

If you beleive that Canadian have almost the same identity as the American, then point me out the specific American values that english canadian share with the US and do not share with the other western country AND that are not linked to the fact that we have a tremenduously big supply of energy, space and natural ressources available.

I think that we have almost the same identity as the American, in that we're a former British colony founded in North America - wealthy in natural resources and built up by immigrants. We also share a dominant language.

It's hard to find two countries that are so alike, in fact, unless you count things like N. Korea/S. Korea or China/Taiwan or Italy/San Marino, France/Monaco etc.

[Shwa]

"Dead on right.....Canada has no real identity like the Americans we are just a mish mash of this and that and any culture we

may have had has been hijacked by other cultures!"

So Wulf42 let me ask you, are you familiar with Louis Lafontaine and Robert Baldwin? Do you know where the Battle of Lundy's Lane was fought? Have you ever read Marshall McLuhan, Margaret Atwood or John Ralston-Saul? When was the last time you looked at an AJ Casson? Have you ever been to a powwow, a maple syrup run or to the Parliament in Ottawa? Have you ever had a good swig of screech, froze at a football or hockey game or watched the National on the CBC? And on and on I could go...

My point is this: if you surrender to your own jaded opinion so easily then you deserve to be hijacked. We are a complex people, but we are not incomprehensible. We have our own myths, our own form of patriotism, our own shames and triumphs. It's all right there, but if you choose to ignore it, you have no one to blame but yourself.

However, I suspect you are young and will, one day, come to understand and appreciate our Canadian identity. Maybe even embrace it. Take the time to have a good honest look, you won't be disappointed to be a Canadian.

[Smallc]

Nice post Shwa. I certainly couldn't have said it any better.

[whowhere]

Yes Canada is distinct from the US in that we have a conservative party who thinks its ok for Multinationals to bring in foreign workers as long as they pay them more than YOU!!!

I worked for this multinational that deliberately devalued and called positions assembly/operator positions when they involved technical troubleshooting skills and formal training to do the position. If you tried to apply for one of these positions they had list of qualifications which were specific and unappliable by most. Why would a company do this?? Todays Canadian worker has no leverage to say or doing anything about the sell out injustice heaped upon them by the self serving conservative party. The only thing you can do is look for better employment but wait you are competeing with the immigrant dumping by the conservatives that has only accomplished low wages and poor working conditions. When you do see a position posting chances are you will not have the experience or education they are looking for. When this happens the company is free to look outside of Canada to fill that position. This is ok with the conservatives as long as these people get paid more than you.

The difference between Canada and the US in this situation is that the US will issue a visa with an expiry. This person has no citizenship rights whatsover. In Canada this person not only got the high paying position, he is entitled to vote for their favorite conservative party, and qualify for a mortgage to jack up real estate prices for the real Canadians who struggle to advance themselves. Sure many Canadians may have relevant work experience and education to apply for certain positions but the way they are advertised makes them unappliable.

Why would anyone support a party who has put the world ahead of you. The conservatives are a joke and an insult to what Nov 11 represents. The conservatives are the most vial corrupt party to ever govern Canada. Get them out!

[Smallc]

[Anacoluthe]

Yes Canada is distinct from the US in that we have a conservative party who thinks its ok for Multinationals to bring in foreign workers as long as they pay them more than YOU!!!

I worked for this multinational that deliberately devalued and called positions assembly/operator positions when they involved technical troubleshooting skills and formal training to do the position. If you tried to apply for one of these positions they had list of qualifications which were specific and unappliable by most. Why would a company do this?? Todays Canadian worker has no leverage to say or doing anything about the sell out injustice heaped upon them by the self serving conservative party. The only thing you can do is look for better employment but wait you are competeing with the immigrant dumping by the conservatives that has only accomplished low wages and poor working conditions. When you do see a position posting chances are you will not have the experience or education they are looking for. When this happens the company is free to look outside of Canada to fill that position. This is ok with the conservatives as long as these people get paid more than you.

The difference between Canada and the US in this situation is that the US will issue a visa with an expiry. This person has no citizenship rights whatsover. In Canada this person not only got the high paying position, he is entitled to vote for their favorite conservative party, and qualify for a mortgage to jack up real estate prices for the real Canadians who struggle to advance themselves. Sure many Canadians may have relevant work experience and education to apply for certain positions but the way they are advertised makes them unappliable.

Why would anyone support a party who has put the world ahead of you. The conservatives are a joke and an insult to what Nov 11 represents. The conservatives are the most vial corrupt party to ever govern Canada. Get them out!

This is hardly related to the Canadian identity.

If you want to talk about the Conservative party and Canadian identity, at least you may talk about how the right social/religious wing with the complicity of the Conservative party, is working hard on a propagandistic ideology to carry false informations and rewrite historical facts about "traditional canadian values and identity".

It's a shame they do so...

It's even worst that everyone seem to let them do it without protest or statement about their lies.

[jbg]

I think we should keep in mind that the Confederation was partly made to dissuade the USA from attacking the Brits colony of North America after the Civil War. In those old days, USA was a very expansionist country and they were angry for the support Britain had given to the South in the Civil War. (And for this part, it worked well since the USA finally choose to move west and after that go toward Mexico and Cuba for their expansion)

So yes, to some extent, NOT BEEING american is a part of the Canadian identity. But it's a legitimate part of our identity. We should remember that the USA are our "traditional ennemy"... or at least the closest thing to that. Ok, now times have changed a lot and the USA move from closest ennemy to closest friend, but the Canada is borned from the will of it citizen to not become american.

Agree so far.

After saying so, does the Canadian identity is something more? OF COURSE!

Indeed, beeing a Quebecois, to me it's extremely obvious how much I'm different from an american (language and culture are both very very different). But even in my non-english-mother-tongue-speaker eyes, the english-speaking Canadian are very very different from american too.

Ok, you share almost the same language... I say almost because it's true that American speak... well... American while the Canadian speak english (it's a bit like how here we speak a different french language than in Europe). But sharing a closely-related language and beeing able to listen the same TV shows doesn't seal the deal fro beeing the same.

No. They speak Canadian (think Dion or Chretien). We speak English.

While in Canada, the personal path in life is much more important... This specific value is at the core of our fairer (free) healthcare system and our better education system (more effective teaching up to the high school and then, MUCH cheaper/fairer way to reach university). It's because in Canada we beleive that, up to a big extent, we should provide a basic egality of chances for everyone to succeed if they make their own effort.

Tell that to the Desmairis or Martin families.

Also, the way we conceive multiculturalism is quite different in Canada than it is in the USA. While in the USA they accept immigrant essentially because it's their traditional position. There's no real interest for the newcommer (and it seem none at all when they come from Mexico). In Canada, immigration is important; new cultures are considered as a valuable asset. (well, not as much as before when you listen some right-wing comment but still... they are'nt as bad as the USA right-wing comment about illegal Mexican immigration... nothing close to)

I think in Canada immigration of the non-assimilating variety is important to the LPC. In the US we love immigrants and want them to contribute their culture to ours, while they assimilate. The U.S. talk-radio righties represent themselves and few others.

Now if you look at what we share as value with the USA... well... I would say it's a mistake to say that we share American values. Truth is: we share post-WWII-western-world value with the USA... as the France, Japan, UK, Germany, Italy, spain, etc. do. Most of these values don't come from the Americans anyway... most of them come from the French writer of the 18th century and the Americans choose to adopt them after the Independance War. If you call them Americans values because Americans share them and it's a part of their identity, it's ok... but keep in mind that freedom of speech, the individualism and the like are basically values developped (but of course not enforced by the french monarchy) by the french in the 18th century.

Do you mean De Toqueville (sp) as the "French writer of the 18th century"? If so he described the culture not created it. I doubt a French writer of the 18th century could create an American culture.

[Argus]

A,

I think that we have almost the same identity as the American, in that we're a former British colony founded in North America - wealthy in natural resources and built up by immigrants. We also share a dominant language.

It used to be said we took the best from both worlds. We had the Americans energy and perhaps somewhat naive belief in the freedoms of the individual and the exapansiveness of human potential - while at the same time retaining that sober, traditional, thoughtful, unflappable approach to life's problems that the British used to claim as their particular strength.

We are somewhat like both. We are probably more like the Americans in that we have been inundated by American culture for the last several generations. But we have distinctively un-American ideals and beliefs which support more state intervention in the lives of individuals as a sort of community support network. We, despite our suspicions of the incompetence of officialdam, trust government more to do things which we, as a society, think ought to be done in the interests of us as a society. The Americans are still much more into individualism.

Canadians are more willing to sacrifice individual freedoms in the name of social cohesion and the betterment of society. At the same time, we're quite leery of this, and of the competence of those who think they know what's best for us - as they're often wrong. But we generally don't bear as much animosity towards them, and are political and social beliefs tend to be far less dramatic on either end of the spectrum.

The Liberals have been doing their level best for most of the past forty years to destroy every remnant of British cultural values and traditional beliefs they could find, all in the name of social cohesion, of pleasing Quebec. But much still remains in the stolid working ethic which makes up many parts of the country. I think we are probably most American in places like Toronto, which of course, then tries to influence the culture nationwide. We are most like the British in Atlantic Canada and rural and semi rural areas of Ontario and the West.

[Argus]

Perhaps an excellent place for this...

The Conservative government will redefine what it means to be Canadian this week by introducing a new guide to citizenship, a rare and significant attempt to reshape the national image.

The new document, which will be the citizenship study guide for the 250,000 immigrants who arrive in Canada each year, instantly becomes one of the country's most widely read and potentially influential pieces of writing. It will replace a document created by the Liberals in 1997 that the Conservatives criticized for its anemic presentation of Canadian history and identity.

Citizienship - Ottawa moves to remodel Canada's image

[Argus]

I had an interesting conversation with some friends, in which we discussed whether the Canadian identity was primarily based on the ceaseless struggle to NOT be Americans. Even looking back to the revolutionary war, the war of 1812, confederation, and the settling of the west it seems as if Canadians have been obsessed with keeping the USA at bay. Is the Canadian identity nothing more than the never ceasing struggle not to be Americans?

No. Perhaps for some of the chattering liberal classes in Toronto there might be some reflexive distaste for anything associated with American culture, but most of us don't give it a second thought. We is who we is, and we don't much care how that coincides with or varies from what the Americans think or do or say or believe.

[Argus]

As a result of this odd irony, Canada has no identity, which goes a long way in explaining why muslim youths are attracted more so to the ideology of their original country than they are to the ideology of Canada, which is essentially a big vacuum.

Canada certainly has an identity, even if immigrants aren't much familiar with it.

Then again, you don't seem to be either. But I suspect you are, but simply don't recognize it. I think you'd know it if it suddenly disappeared or changed radically, though.

[Argus]

No, she was hired to remind Americans what they already have, if they are rich....and why she was glad it was available to her, and any other American who has a lot of money.

Hiring her was a very sleazy American thing to do.

Fixed that for ya.

[Argus]

OK...but the larger point was that PM Trudeau taught Canada to identify itself in such an Un-Cola way.

Canada was far more British prior to Trudeau. Not so much American.

[Argus]

It is in purpose and method, but differs in political alliance.

The CBC is unconsciously liberal in that most of those who choose to work for them are inspired by liberal ideals and came from liberal backgrounds and liberal journalism schools. They are generally smug and satisfied with the status quo.

Fox news is deliberately biased as a mater of corporate policy. It deliberately sets out to slant every story and every discussion in favor of one view. If the US were a totalitarian dictatorship and the Republicans were the dictators, Fox news would operate in exactly the way it does now.

There is a difference.

[Argus]

not to worry, in 20 yrs almost all of them will be dead...the Harper cons are their last gasp, better education eliminates conservative ideology social progress can never be stopped...good times ahead, good times

Stupidity abounds on the internet. As predictable as rain in spring.

Many younger people have quite conservative views, and most immigrants are far more conservative than the elderly. An old man might be suspicious, even contemptuous of gays, but a young Muslim man thinks they're disgusting and ought to be locked away in prison.

Your view that Canada will get more liberal as the older generation die and the number of Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus in our society grows is quite silly.

[bush_cheney2004]

Fixed that for ya.

You didn't fix anything, but you did satisfy your fixation and class envy in another nation. Shona Holmes is a Canadian, and she was "hired" just like many others...by "sleazy" Americans.

[Argus]

Further proof that one should never use "porportion" to try and win a penis measuring contest.

Hence.....34,000,000 vs. 300,000,000.

Yes, and your truly massive, humongous, and largely unmanageable debt is even more impressive.

Want to bet that next election the rallying cry from Republicans will be "Vote for us and we'll cut taxes!"

Phhht

Wag your wiener elsewhere, boy.

[bush_cheney2004]

The CBC is unconsciously liberal in that most of those who choose to work for them are inspired by liberal ideals and came from liberal backgrounds and liberal journalism schools. They are generally smug and satisfied with the status quo.

As are many in their audience.

Fox news is deliberately biased as a mater of corporate policy. It deliberately sets out to slant every story and every discussion in favor of one view. If the US were a totalitarian dictatorship and the Republicans were the dictators, Fox news would operate in exactly the way it does now.

...and if pigs had wings they could fly.

There is a difference.

Sure is....how many national news networks exist in Canada, and even if they do, are very dependent on American media anyway?

[Argus]

Where's our Nov 11 Stat holiday?? The US has ten, Canada has nine. Make Nov 11 a stat!!

Well if it makes you feel any better, federal employees do get today off.

And I'm happily enjoying it.