Quebec MP's siding with Layton

[Mr.Canada]

When it comes to the relevance of a fall election campaign, Jack Layton has more secret followers within the Quebec ranks of the federal Liberal party than leader Michael Ignatieff. And their numbers are growing by the day.

This once again proves that Ignatieff still has a very polarized caucus and that he's refusing to listen to his own caucus on the issue of whether or not to have an election. It's clear that there are still divisions within his own party.

Recent polls have shown the Liberals to be in retreat in Quebec and those polls did not even cover the period of the Coderre imbroglio.

This is quite remarkable in the fact that the current Liberal numbers don't reflect the Coderre incident. The real numbers must be quite a bit lower then. This doesn't bode well for Ignatieff at all. When is he going to step down for the good of his party?

While the Liberals are on the way down in Quebec, the Conservatives have been building substantial leads in Ontario and British Columbia. According to the latest Angus Reid poll, an election held last week could have seen Ignatieff win less seats than Dion did a year ago.

Source of quotes and full story here

This is also quite telling. I and many other Tory supporters have been saying this even before Ignatieff was crowned the leader of the Liberals. He was crowned without the support of even input of the grassroots. This is right in their charter, I guess he deemed the wishes of his grassroots democracy unimportant. He also ignored the Charter when at first not wanting to replace Coderre until reversing himself a week later and promising to appoint one.

This man cannot be trusted to run Canada, heck, he cannot be trusted to run his own party fairly.

Canada needs a strong leader. Canada is better off with Stephen Harper.

[madmax]

Well, Mr. Canada. You made a mess of Chantel Heberts Column. Aside from your partisanship, this column is brutal on the LPC under Ignatieff.

One of the most damaging Observations that Chantel provides is this one.

While the Liberals are on the way down in Quebec, the Conservatives have been building substantial leads in Ontario and British Columbia. According to the latest Angus Reid poll, an election held last week could have seen Ignatieff win less seats than Dion did a year ago.

That I will repeat for you for good measure

Edited October 5, 2009 by madmax

[Mr.Canada]

Well, Mr. Canada. You made a mess of Chantel Heberts Column. Aside from your partisanship, this column is brutal on the LPC under Ignatieff.

One of the most damaging Observations that Chantel provides is this one.

That I will repeat for you for good measure

We need the Liberal party to be completely destroyed and obliterated. I won't be happy until the Liberal Party is rendered dead and no longer a threat to Canada.

I want the NDP to be the opposition giving Canadians two clear choices for Federalism. Tories or NDP. Right or left. No third option.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[jdobbin]

No third option.

And I thought you only supported one option.

[Mr.Canada]

And I thought you only supported one option.

If only the Tories and NDP survive it will allow the Tories to move further to the right dragging the NDP further to the centre, cutting off the Liberals a chance to recover and reclaim the centre. 3 Federalist parties is one too many. it waters down the vote too much. A two party system like the US is much better. Clear winners and losers.

[jdobbin]

A two party system like the US is much better. Clear winners and losers.

No thanks. Like a lot of Canadians, I would drop out of political participation entirely.

[ba1614]

No thanks. Like a lot of Canadians, I would drop out of political participation entirely.

That might be a good thing considering all you'll ever see is liberal red regardless of their actions.

[Wild Bill]

No thanks. Like a lot of Canadians, I would drop out of political participation entirely.

I'm not clear on your meaning, jdobbin. Are you saying that you would drop out if there were only two parties, or only if the Liberals were NOT one of those parties?

[jdobbin]

That might be a good thing considering all you'll ever see is liberal red regardless of their actions.

I suspect Canadians will continue to abandon the polls. It won't matter the merit of the people, the policies, the need or anything else.

[jdobbin]

I'm not clear on your meaning, jdobbin. Are you saying that you would drop out if there were only two parties, or only if the Liberals were NOT one of those parties?

I'd not be interested in an either/or scenario given our system.

[madmax]

I want the NDP to be the opposition giving Canadians two clear choices for Federalism. Tories or NDP. Right or left. No third option.

As long as schemers try to create a 2 party system, there will be a 3rd party at minimum. You need the Government, the heir and the other.

A two party system is too easily corruptable. And considering how Western Canada works, they are never comfortable with Status quo and something new will spring up whenever required.

The West is responsible for, Reform, CCF, Progressives, and Social Credit among a number of political movements to spread onto the federal scene.

While the LPC still suffers from delusions of granduer, the CPC is just as prone to adopt these allusions, which is why we throw governments out. But the 3rd party is their to vent and keep the others honest.

Look in BC, the Social Credit and Conservatives rallied around the Liberal brand to drive out the NDP. The two party system then bleed into 3 as the Green Party has significant sway.

In PC land of ALberta, the one party state, can get tired. Social Credit replaced by PCs, PCs challenged by Liberals, New Democrats and Wild Rose.

In Sask, the Sask party and the NDP fight it out as top Dog and the Liberals provide the 3rd tier of protest.

In Manitoba, its the NDP and the PCs with again the Liberals providing that 3rd outlet.

Ontario, its Liberal, PCs with the NDP providing the 3rd outlet.

In Quebec, we saw the LPC fight with the PQ, and the ADQ became the outlet.

And we can go on. Whenever people think we should have only 2 parties, there is a group that is left out by these mainstream visions and they need a voice. That voice will always come from an alternative party.

[Dave_ON]

If only the Tories and NDP survive it will allow the Tories to move further to the right dragging the NDP further to the centre, cutting off the Liberals a chance to recover and reclaim the centre. 3 Federalist parties is one too many. it waters down the vote too much. A two party system like the US is much better. Clear winners and losers.

I'd disagree, and I think Madmax hit the nail on the head. For most of us the NDP is too far left for our taste and in general they're more labor union centered. This is not to say they don't have a number of good ideas, they just generally need a little reworking to be palatable to the average Canadian. It's not as simple as Left vs. Right, the CPC is a centrist part for the most part, the only thing I would say makes them right wing is their penchant for social conservatism. If they could purge the last vestiges of this distasteful social conservatism and distance themselves from their Christian support, I would actually vote for them as many of their policies such as northern sovereignty, military investment, trade etc I'm in agreement with. Their day to day running of the country isn't so very different from the LPC. So what is left to me and many many more like me? The CPC are too socially conservative, the NDP are too socialist we need a third party to represent us. There’s no denying that currently the LPC is hurting bad and it may be the better part of a decade before they recover, but so long as there is no middle ground between the CPC and the NDP the LPC or some other party occupying that space will always be there.

[eyeball]

I think a lot of voters would quickly tire of only 1 left wing party and 1 right wing party at the federal level. We're just too diverse and the country is just too big. I think the existance of the Bloc will emerge as a third model for new parties to pattern themselves after and for voters to support.

In addition to blocking majority governments from developing voters in Quebec have apparently also blocked the development of a two-ideology state. Quebec seems all the more essentially Canadian to me because of it. I wish BC would follow its example.

[Alta4ever]

I think a lot of voters would quickly tire of only 1 left wing party and 1 right wing party at the federal level. We're just too diverse and the country is just too big. I think the existance of the Bloc will emerge as a third model for new parties to pattern themselves after and for voters to support.

In addition to blocking majority governments from developing voters in Quebec have apparently also blocked the development of a two-ideology state. Quebec seems all the more essentially Canadian to me because of it. I wish BC would follow its example.

So you don't think the Bloc is a left wing ideology party under the guise of a regional party?

[Alta4ever]

I'd disagree, and I think Madmax hit the nail on the head. For most of us the NDP is too far left for our taste and in general they're more labor union centered. This is not to say they don't have a number of good ideas, they just generally need a little reworking to be palatable to the average Canadian. It's not as simple as Left vs. Right, the CPC is a centrist part for the most part, the only thing I would say makes them right wing is their penchant for social conservatism. If they could purge the last vestiges of this distasteful social conservatism and distance themselves from their Christian support, I would actually vote for them as many of their policies such as northern sovereignty, military investment, trade etc I'm in agreement with. Their day to day running of the country isn't so very different from the LPC. So what is left to me and many many more like me? The CPC are too socially conservative, the NDP are too socialist we need a third party to represent us. There’s no denying that currently the LPC is hurting bad and it may be the better part of a decade before they recover, but so long as there is no middle ground between the CPC and the NDP the LPC or some other party occupying that space will always be there.

Just curious what horrible social policy have you seen rolled out from the Harper goverment?

[eyeball]

So you don't think the Bloc is a left wing ideology party under the guise of a regional party?

No, I think its a regional party and most Quebecers are more naturally inclined towards that.

[eyeball]

Just curious what horrible social policy have you seen rolled out from the Harper goverment?

Bill C-15 and their plan to overhaul the federal prison system, apparently to suit things like C-15. These are horrible social-conservative policies that are right out of right field. They have absolutely nothing to do with the science of actually preventing social problems and everything to do with getting elected. That's what makes them so horrible.

[wyly]

If only the Tories and NDP survive it will allow the Tories to move further to the right dragging the NDP further to the centre, cutting off the Liberals a chance to recover and reclaim the centre. 3 Federalist parties is one too many. it waters down the vote too much. A two party system like the US is much better. Clear winners and losers.

fewer parties, less democracy...how about we just go to a one party state, I'll bet you'd love that...

[fellowtraveller]

They have absolutely nothing to do with the science of actually preventing social problems

I cannot help but snigger whenever I see 'social' and science' in the same sentence.

[Alta4ever]

No, I think its a regional party and most Quebecers are more naturally inclined towards that.

Actually it is a left wing seperatist party, many of their policies are very much in line with the NDP.

[eyeball]

I cannot help but snigger whenever I see 'social' and science' in the same sentence.

I probably should have said science and crime.

[Jack Weber]

If only the Tories and NDP survive it will allow the Tories to move further to the right dragging the NDP further to the centre, cutting off the Liberals a chance to recover and reclaim the centre. 3 Federalist parties is one too many. it waters down the vote too much. A two party system like the US is much better. Clear winners and losers.

I knew it...

Mr.Canada was really Captain America!

[eyeball]

Actually it is a left wing seperatist party, many of their policies are very much in line with the NDP.

We seen right-wing separatist parties emerge in Canada before and I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of these in the future.

[madmax]

So you don't think the Bloc is a left wing ideology party under the guise of a regional party?

Former Mulroney Conservative and BQ founder Lucien Bouchard can answer that question for you.

However, from wiki...

The Bloc Québécois was started in 1991 as an informal coalition of Progressive Conservative and Liberal Members of Parliament from Quebec,

The initial coalition that led to the Bloc was led by Lucien Bouchard, who had been federal Minister of the Environment. However, after a commission headed by Jean Charest recommended some changes to the Meech Lake Accord, Bouchard left the Progressive Conservatives (May 1990), feeling that the spirit and objectives of the accord were being diluted. According to The Secret Mulroney Tapes he was fired by then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. Bouchard was joined by several of his fellow Tories, such as Nic Leblanc, Louis Plamondon, Benoît Tremblay, Gilbert Chartrand, and François Gérin, along with two Liberals, notably Gilles Rocheleau and Jean Lapierre.

(Ironically)The first Bloquiste candidate to be elected was Gilles Duceppe, then a union organizer, in a by-election for the Montreal riding of Laurier—Sainte-Marie on August 13, 1990. He ran as an independent, since the Bloc had not been registered as a federal party.

Prior to Duceppe election as an independant .... "All of the Bloc's other Members of Parliament had crossed the floor from either the Progressive Conservative Party or the Liberal Party earlier that year."

Michel Gauthier was the next BQ leader after Bouchard. He was and is a Conservative within the BQ up until he left politics in 2006.

Then Gilles Duceppe lead the party, the communist..

It's a regional party. Of course its regional, and if it was just a "Left Wing" regional party it would have as much traction as that left wing regional party in quebec that doesn't have a seat and gets under 1%.

[madmax]

Actually it is a left wing seperatist party, many of their policies are very much in line with the NDP.

Well according to this headline, the Quebec Liberal MPs are siding with Layton, LOL.