Quebec MP's siding with Layton

[Dave_ON]

Just curious what horrible social policy have you seen rolled out from the Harper goverment?

They've demonstrated on several occassions that the religious conservatives hold far too much sway in the party. Specifically I'd refer to the Toronto Pride/Montreal Pride festivals as a prime example of this. Mr. Harper is smart enough to not touch the abortion mind field, though there is a lot of pressure from the religious grass roots supporters to do so. The CPC's are also focused too much on sentencing to deal with crime rather than working on prevention. Prisond are already over crowded and building more isn't going to fix the issue, longer sentences only make people "feel" like something is being done, whether or not it is, is debateable.

Mr. Canada is probably a prime example of the type of supporter for the CPC that turns myself and other like me off of voting for them.

[Mr.Canada]

They've demonstrated on several occassions that the religious conservatives hold far too much sway in the party. Specifically I'd refer to the Toronto Pride/Montreal Pride festivals as a prime example of this. Mr. Harper is smart enough to not touch the abortion mind field, though there is a lot of pressure from the religious grass roots supporters to do so. The CPC's are also focused too much on sentencing to deal with crime rather than working on prevention. Prisond are already over crowded and building more isn't going to fix the issue, longer sentences only make people "feel" like something is being done, whether or not it is, is debateable.

Mr. Canada is probably a prime example of the type of supporter for the CPC that turns myself and other like me off of voting for them.

Government shouldn't be in the business of supporting a parade that included sex acts i the public square where families and children would be expected to attend.

There are plenty of religious people in the Liberal party as well.

We've been trying prevention programs since the 1980's. Building basketball courts and community centres isn't the answer. Neither are counseling programs, etc. Offenders have access to a ton of these resources in prison but they have little effect.

Canada's population is increasing by 250,000 per year by immigration alone so of coarse the prison population will grow. The number of prisons we have now were built when our population was 20 million or so. We need to build more prisons for this reason.

The crime rate basically stays the same per capita but the numbers of convicts increases as our population does.

[Dave_ON]

Government shouldn't be in the business of supporting a parade that included sex acts i the public square where families and children would be expected to attend.

There are plenty of religious people in the Liberal party as well.

We've been trying prevention programs since the 1980's. Building basketball courts and community centres isn't the answer. Neither are counseling programs, etc. Offenders have access to a ton of these resources in prison but they have little effect.

Canada's population is increasing by 250,000 per year by immigration alone so of coarse the prison population will grow. The number of prisons we have now were built when our population was 20 million or so. We need to build more prisons for this reason.

The crime rate basically stays the same per capita but the numbers of convicts increases as our population does.

The government shouldn't be in the business of funding any event regardless of the reason unless it is a state event. Namely Canada Day celebrations, the Olympics, the Queens visits etc. If they're going to fund the Calgary stampede then all venues should be open for funding.

There are no public sex acts that occur at Pride that's a flagrant embellishment on your part.

The Difference between the CPC and the LPC is their social policy is not influenced by the religious supporters. I think you're right the government shouldn't be in the business of running people’s lives. Morality is not something that needs to be legislated and religion has no place in politics. We're a secular state and we need to stay that way.

As for you assessment of the crime issue, that's up for debate. If longer, more harsh sentences and more prisons are the solution why isn't the US a veritable crime free utopia? Investment in youth and the community are never a waste. It's a matter of pay now or pay later, prevention is always preferable to burdening the tax payers with more overhead to feed and house inmates for the duration of their lengthened sentence.

[fellowtraveller]

The Difference between the CPC and the LPC is their social policy is not influenced by the religious supporters. I think you're right the government shouldn't be in the business of running people’s lives. Morality is not something that needs to be legislated and religion has no place in politics. We're a secular state and we need to stay that way.

Nice rant, but sad that you are unable to cite any examples that would raise it to anything beyond vapid bullshit.

1) failed to fund a gay pride event.

2) don't like their hardline on crime.

That's it? Is that their secret agenda?

[Dave_ON]

Nice rant, but sad that you are unable to cite any examples that would raise it to anything beyond vapid bullshit.

1) failed to fund a gay pride event.

2) don't like their hardline on crime.

That's it? Is that their secret agenda?

I mentioned a secret agenda?

Cultural events regardless of what they are shouldn't be funded, save those of national interest as cited in my earlier post. However, if you are going to fund them, an assessment needs to be made of getting the most out of the money invested.

Hardline on crime is over simplifying the subject as you should well know it goes far deeper than that. Again it's about return on investment. What is more effective preventative measures or reprisal? Is a "hardline" on crime effective? Evidence to south would indicate that it is not. Should we continue to throw away money on methods that have proven to be less than effective or should we start looking at alternatives?

The long gun registry is another example of wasting money. One of their elections planks was to scrap the long gun registry, which is fine if that’s what they believe in. I can’t really comment on its effectiveness but their current stance is little more than playing both sides. Rather than getting rid of it they have extended an amnesty on it, so rather than the gun owners paying for the system, all tax payers are paying for the system. If they’re going to scrap it just do so and be done with it.

No need to be flippant, it's unbecoming of a gentlemen. Suffice to say both matters are about how tax dollars are being spent. It's not a matter of "that's it?” it's a matter of how the CPC decides how to spend money. If they are going to allow a small group of religious folks to determine how and when tax dollars are spent I'll have not part of it. Bottom line is we're a secular state, and religion should not even factor into the decision making process. Until the CPC can purge the appearance that religious groups still hold a lot of sway in their policy, the majority they so desperately crave will not occur. Is this simply perception on my part? Perhaps but when things occur like the Divercite event having their funding pulled it seems to indicate an anti-gay pro-religious leaning.

[fellowtraveller]

If they are going to allow a small group of religious folks to determine how and when tax dollars are spent I'll have not part of it. Bottom line is we're a secular state, and religion should not even factor into the decision making process. Until the CPC can purge the appearance that religious groups still hold a lot of sway in their policy, the majority they so desperately crave will not occur. Is this simply perception on my part? Perhaps but when things occur like the Divercite event having their funding pulled it seems to indicate an anti-gay pro-religious leaning.

You keep returning to this theory that the CPC are run by hardline fundamentalist, and keep returning to weak 'examples' that don't support anything, much less your premise.

I don't think there is a problem with your perception, it is more a lack of perception, or perhaps an unwillingness to see what is in front of your face.

Examples: what has Harper done about same sex marriage? Tossed a cookie to the Christians in his party(the same faith that exists in all parties, including the Liberals who overwhelmingly rehected SSM in Parliamentary votes a couple of times.) , had a free vote and never spoked or acted about it n any way again. As promised.

Abortion on demand? Not a peep, no action. As promised.

Your turn.

[Mr.Canada]

So many people are so hardline partisans they are blinded by their own partisanship.

No matter what PM Harper or the Tories do it's bad.

No matter what the Liberals do or the NDP does is good. Or they find excuses to make sure it looks like it's all PM Harpers fault.

Ignatieff not doing well in the polls? Harpers mean and not playing fair.

Lol, give me a break. Ignatieff is an adult, if he cannot stand up for himself and has weak policy or no policy that has hardly anything to do with Harper. If the Liberals picked better leaders this wouldn't be allowed to happen.

[Wild Bill]

So many people are so hardline partisans they are blinded by their own partisanship.

No matter what PM Harper or the Tories do it's bad.

No matter what the Liberals do or the NDP does is good. Or they find excuses to make sure it looks like it's all PM Harpers fault.

Ignatieff not doing well in the polls? Harpers mean and not playing fair.

Lol, give me a break. Ignatieff is an adult, if he cannot stand up for himself and has weak policy or no policy that has hardly anything to do with Harper. If the Liberals picked better leaders this wouldn't be allowed to happen.

I think your last point is the most important one. We witnessed for so long how the Liberal Party had Chretien in power, Martin in the wings and that seemed to be all for leaders and potential leaders. After Martin had his brief fling it would seem the Liberals had failed to have many truly powerful contenders coming up through the farm teams.

Particularly after Adscam! The Liberal brand was so tarnished that who of substance wanted the role? Any big guns (with the big money!) likely decided to sit things out for a term or two. Real Liberal Leaders don't want to waste their time as Opposition Leaders!

So they watched as they let Dion take over, expecting him to serve as caretaker to give some time for the 'negative vibes' to die down. Unfortunately for them, Dion had ambition! He may not have been very practical but he really seemed to think he could return his party to power as the worlds greatest eco-warriors!

When he pulled them down even further the backroom boys must have panicked. They abandoned all pretense of having enough candidates for a real leadership race and anointed Ingatieff unopposed! He was supposedly the new Philosopher King, a la Trudeau.

Unfortunately for them, he has proven to be very little like Trudeau. Trudeau for all his faults was more than just some gold splattered academic credentials. He also was plugged in to the 'real world'! Any man who spent his youth bombing around on a motorcycle wearing a WWI german helmet and hiking across Canada, Europe and other parts of the world would have a far closer connection to ordinary people and how they think than we have seen from Ignatieff.

It's like the common complaint from shop floor managers today, in a society that has made hiring a process of some HR clerk checking off all the pertinent certificates and courses on some list! That being: "Great resume but dammit, he can't do the job!"

The situation now is such that any would-be contender in the lower Liberal ranks most likely has no interest at all in trying for the leadership at any time in the foreseeable future.

They desperately need someone who WILL fill the interim! Someone willing to be a strong and effective Opposition leader who can reverse the popular polls to the point where their party has another shot at the brass ring! He or she would be well aware that at that point there would be a REAL leadership race and they may not win!

I guess I'm describing someone who isn't 100% ego, which is unlikely for a politician!