Only 12% of Stimulus Cash Delivered

[Jerry J. Fortin]

What is it that you want him to do? The man is in opposition, which means he is supposed to be on the other side of the street from the government according to our system. He is supposed to offer an alternative way of doing things.

[Smallc]

I want him to be consistent, and I want him to find something real to criticize. I was with him, but then he seemed to lose step there in June. He's never gotten in back since then in my opinion.

[punked]

I think Iggy should be held accountable, but not because he voted for tough drug laws. He should've brought down the government and forced an election in the spring. There's a difference. I wonder what Jack Layton will be held accountable for when it comes time for him to prop up a stinking piece of turd legislation (assuming of course the EI bill wasn't)? Oh that's right, he can do no wrong, right? Of course! The conversation will never take place.

Nicky he hasn't voted for something I disagree with yet. I like the expansion of EI sorry I don't like the things Iggy voted for sorry. Biull C15 tough drug laws, Bill C10 an attack on women it is disgusting. Sorry I expect those things from the conservatives I don't from the Liberals making it that much worse.

[capricorn]

I want him to be consistent, and I want him to find something real to criticize.

In another thread, I said it's looking like the only thing that could turn the tide against the Conservatives is a major scandal. Well, the hunt is on and stimulus spending has become Ignatieff's oyster in which he hopes to uncover a pearl. The problem is, in their zeal to find scandal the Liberals are not doing proper research before going public.

Michael Ignatieff stood in a field of weeds on Thursday to illustrate accusations the Harper government is lying to Canadians about how many infrastructure projects are under way and how much money is flowing from its stimulus program.

The field is to be a park and should be by now, the Liberal Leader said in Burlington, Ont., but the Tories are slow in turning their words into action under the $4-billion infrastructure spending fund.

More than that, he said , the majority of projects announced are going to Conservative-held ridings. And his infrastructure critic, Liberal MP Gerard Kennedy, has prepared a report that appears to back this up.

One problem, however: Half an hour later, Infrastructure Minister John Baird stood at a construction project just five minutes away from the Ignatieff weed field, countering the Liberal Leader's claims.

That field, the Ottawa-area Tory MP said, should be empty because the project slated there was never meant to get started until 2010.

Calling the Liberal report “embarrassing,” he said that 75 per cent of all the projects slated to begin in 2009 are now under way.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politi...article1300089/

If too many of these hiccups happen then Canadians will start laughing at Ignatieff and his crew. When politicians become a joke in the eyes of voters, there's no telling where that can lead.

So yes, you are right to be concerned about the present direction taken by the party you have been supporting.

[Keepitsimple]

You know, my party is becoming pathetic. I don't think I'll have anyone to vote for. I will say this. The stimulus is certainly flowing in Manitoba, and despite my dislike of Stephen Harper's lie in December, I have no other party that I can vote for with good conscience other than his. Ignatieff better do something, or I'll vote the other way...again.

Things go in cycles...it's hard for someone to be a diehard Liberal or Conservative nowadays. I'm not trying to be snarky at all but for now at least, Harper has moved the Conservatives pretty close to the center and the Liberals have been floundering since Chretien left. I'm sure that Harper and the Conservatives will run their course and hopefully in the meantime, the Liberals will get their act together and be ready to offer an alternative 5 or 6 years from now. It's healthy for Canada to have two central parties - one that tilts a wee bit to the Right and one that tilts a wee bit to the Left.....and if both have competitive leadership, the situation of the day often determines who gets the crown. One day I might go back to voting Liberal - leaders change, times change, and parties adapt.

[Shakeyhands]

I suppose it doesn't matter that this was Liberal practice for a VERY long time as well...

more "but... but... but the Liberals...."

Your watch Moonbox, your party doing it.

[Smallc]

When you promise to do something, and you don't do it, blaming another party isn't an option.

[Topaz]

I for one, would like the Tories to show on their websites the areas that have acutally began to start the jobs. Windsor, doesn't count because no matter who was in power, money would go to that city for the "superhighways" with the US. As far as TO., they are putting money in there, but have they started the work? I imagine they are hoping for more votes, of course.

[jdobbin]

I suppose it doesn't matter that this was Liberal practice for a VERY long time as well...

And this is the justification now?

[DrGreenthumb]

I would also point out to Greenthumb he should really get off his high horse on Jack supporting an EI bill. Iggy supported Bill C-15 as the Liberal leader and guess what Greenthumb that bill was one which included the tightening of Drug Laws and mandiatory minimums for pot use. The NDP voted against the bill saying it took the country in the wrong direction and that drug reform had to take place. So we know where Iggy stands he is for tougher crime laws.

http://westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2992

I have spoken with all the senators and the Liberal ones oppose this bill. It has not passed the senate yet, and if the government falls so does bill c-15. I'm hoping that Ignatieff was counting on this bill being held up in the senate until the time was right to call an election and have a good chance of winning at least a minority. I think Iggy was confident that Jack Layton would be glad to bring down Harper, and stop harmfull bills like c-15 and c-6 from clearing the senate. If these bills pass now I will blame Jack for them just as much as I blame the Liberals for not bringing down the government over it. Would Layton have even voted against this bill if he knew it would bring down harper? I'm not so sure anymore. It's too bad I have been a very strong supporter of Layton's from the start. I also have strong ties to the manitoba NDP. Too bad Gary Doer drank the blue Kool-aid too.

[punked]

I have spoken with all the senators and the Liberal ones oppose this bill. It has not passed the senate yet, and if the government falls so does bill c-15. I'm hoping that Ignatieff was counting on this bill being held up in the senate until the time was right to call an election and have a good chance of winning at least a minority. I think Iggy was confident that Jack Layton would be glad to bring down Harper, and stop harmfull bills like c-15 and c-6 from clearing the senate. If these bills pass now I will blame Jack for them just as much as I blame the Liberals for not bringing down the government over it. Would Layton have even voted against this bill if he knew it would bring down harper? I'm not so sure anymore. It's too bad I have been a very strong supporter of Layton's from the start. I also have strong ties to the manitoba NDP. Too bad Gary Doer drank the blue Kool-aid too.

Hate to break it too you but as soon as the Senate came back from summer break they passed this Bill through two readings and sent it to committee and a number of Liberal Senators voted for it. The Liberals aren't stalling this bill.

http://www.liberalsenateforum.ca/In-The-Se...t-stifle-debate

[Molly]

Nicky he hasn't voted for something I disagree with yet. I like the expansion of EI sorry I don't like the things Iggy voted for sorry. Biull C15 tough drug laws, Bill C10 an attack on women it is disgusting. Sorry I expect those things from the conservatives I don't from the Liberals making it that much worse.

Yes, that inclination to 'omnibus' legislation, to push the poison pills through, unconsidered, folded into a package with essential housekeeping.... defeats the spirit of parliament.

Even in minority, that hard right wing social agenda is being slipped in, slipped in, slithered in.....

[Wild Bill]

And this is the justification now?

Of course it is! Simple games theory states that if one side keeps the high road and the other cheats, the cheater almost always wins!

More simply and even more true in politics, nice guys lose!

I don't like it either but that's the way it is. If you want to blame something, blame human nature.

If a party did it your way they would lose far more votes than they would gain. Period and end of story.

Kinsella's "Barney the Dinosaur" tactic was an obvious cheap shot and frankly, religious discrimination yet it was VERY effective!

I would love to see your premise tested, jdobbin, preferably with the Liberals taking the high road FIRST!

[jdobbin]

More simply and even more true in politics, nice guys lose!

I would love to see your premise tested, jdobbin, preferably with the Liberals taking the high road FIRST!

Think I'm just pointing out that you are supporting a party that is just like the Liberals you purport to hate.

[eyeball]

If the Liberals have drug law reform in their platform, I'm giving up my NDP membership and supporting Iggy.

I wouldn't hold your breath, the Liberals have had it or alluded to it in their platforms for decades now.

[nicky10013]

I'm not sure what the big fuss is about 12%. You can bet that the Liberals are underestimating what's actually been spent. The distortion is that the Liberals are counting what's actually been spent in dollars going out the door. The Conservatives are counting the total amount for projects that have been approved and are scheduled to start or have started already. Both are misleading.

Infrastructure funds were designed to be spent completely by March 31, 2011 - a 24 month period. The funds didn't start flowing until June so it's really a 21 month period or an average of a little less than 5% per month. Municipalities start the work and at the end of each month, they send a bill....the bill is paid in 30 days. So if a project started June 1, the bill was sent July 1 and was paid August 1. So by my calculations, we should have paid out at least 5% in each of August and September....which we obviously have done. The point is, these projects will take a bit of time to really get rolling and then the big bills will come in.

I can say that these numbers are pretty accurate. I did some volunteering and actually worked on this project at Gerard Kennedy's office. The numbers are on money that has got out the door, the problem is, it's supposed to be for shovel ready stimulus projects, IE projects municipalities have been wanting and planning for a while and are ready to go NOW. The list was approved in late winter early spring. IF only 12% of the cash ahs gotten out the door and it's almost the end of September, then that says something. Construction season has passed and the money still hasn't gotten out?

I also don't understand how both numbers could be misleading. Either the money has been spent or it hasn't. There's not really any in between on this.

Edited September 25, 2009 by nicky10013

[Sir Bandelot]

Here's a question for all you arm-chair economists. How is it that only 12% of the stimulus has been spent, but we are hearing lots of talk about how Canada is quickly coming out of the recession and is expected to see about 3% growth next year.

So whats with the huge bailout and stimulus package then? Can we have our remaining 88% back please

[nicky10013]

Here's a question for all you arm-chair economists. How is it that only 12% of the stimulus has been spent, but we are hearing lots of talk about how Canada is quickly coming out of the recession and is expected to see about 3% growth next year.

So whats with the huge bailout and stimulus package then? Can we have our remaining 88% back please

I think you're a tad confused. We generally had the mildest recession but are dead last in recovery numbers of G8 member states according to the OECD.

THe money was needed and still is needed.

http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/09/04/oec...nomic-recovery/

Annualized quarter-on-quarter growth in the United States will be 1.6% in the third quarter, 1.1% in Japan, and 0.3% in the Eurozone, the OECD estimates. Three G7 nations will see contraction: The United Kingdom will decline 1%, Italy 1.1% and Canada 2%.

[Keepitsimple]

Here's a question for all you arm-chair economists. How is it that only 12% of the stimulus has been spent, but we are hearing lots of talk about how Canada is quickly coming out of the recession and is expected to see about 3% growth next year.

So whats with the huge bailout and stimulus package then? Can we have our remaining 88% back please

I mentioned this previously but the Stimulus plan is actually a 2 year plan - 24 months. As usual there was a bureaucratic and logistical delay so the money will be doled out over about 20 months - that averages out to about 5% per month. Furthermore, the municipalities/provinces send a bill to Ottawa at the end of each month, and the bills are paid within 30 days. The Federal government says that 75% of projects have been approved but that doesn't mean they get all the money right away - they get it after they submit their bills on a month by month basis - right up to March 31, 2011. So all this crap that the Liberals are trying to stir up is just desperate hogwash - gross misrepresentation.

[punked]

I think you're a tad confused. We generally had the mildest recession but are dead last in recovery numbers of G8 member states according to the OECD.

THe money was needed and still is needed.

http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/09/04/oec...nomic-recovery/

The OECD do not have the best record with these things. I wait for the real numbers to come out.

[nicky10013]

I mentioned this previously but the Stimulus plan is actually a 2 year plan - 24 months. As usual there was a bureaucratic and logistical delay so the money will be doled out over about 20 months - that averages out to about 5% per month. Furthermore, the municipalities/provinces send a bill to Ottawa at the end of each month, and the bills are paid within 30 days. The Federal government says that 75% of projects have been approved but that doesn't mean they get all the money right away - they get it after they submit their bills on a month by month basis - right up to March 31, 2011. So all this crap that the Liberals are trying to stir up is just desperate hogwash - gross misrepresentation.

Trying to stir up? Even under a 24 month plan you'd expect at least 50% of the funds to be spent by now. Not the case. The money was meant as an easy way to inject money into the economy NOW. The money hasn't been spent so what's the use? Not to the mention the incredibly terrible Tory response on EI and you have an altogether negligent response to a serious economic crisis. There's no getting around it despite what language you're willing to use.

[Keepitsimple]

Trying to stir up? Even under a 24 month plan you'd expect at least 50% of the funds to be spent by now. Not the case. The money was meant as an easy way to inject money into the economy NOW. The money hasn't been spent so what's the use? Not to the mention the incredibly terrible Tory response on EI and you have an altogether negligent response to a serious economic crisis. There's no getting around it despite what language you're willing to use.

Why would you expect that? Unemployment is a lagging indicator. People are still losing jobs and that will continue until spring. We need to keep people busy for the foreseeable future until the economy picks up. If 50% of the stimulus had already been spent - what would that leave us with going forward? What you fail to grasp is that PROJECTS have been approved and are starting. PROJECTS can last for quite a while. Some are short - some are long - some need environmental assessments - which are being fast=tracked. But the point remains, work is done on a month by month basis - bills are submitted, bills are paid. The stimulus money is not just "handed over"...that's where you end up with corruption.

[nicky10013]

Why would you expect that? Unemployment is a lagging indicator. People are still losing jobs and that will continue until spring. We need to keep people busy for the foreseeable future until the economy picks up. If 50% of the stimulus had already been spent - what would that leave us with going forward? What you fail to grasp is that PROJECTS have been approved and are starting. PROJECTS can last for quite a while. Some are short - some are long - some need environmental assessments - which are being fast=tracked. But the point remains, work is done on a month by month basis - bills are submitted, bills are paid. The stimulus money is not just "handed over"...that's where you end up with corruption.

I'd like to know how projects can start when the first snow is less than a month away. Trust me, I've seen the list of projects. Most of them are road projects and water infrastructure upgrades. You can't really do that stuff in the winter and most projects on there are more than month long projects. As for the corruption allegation, that's garbage. As I mentioned before, most of these projects which municipalities apply for money for are mostly all pre-approved and are sitting on shelves due to lack of capital. The application process as it was wasn't really all that stringent of a process to begin with. Most projects were approved months ago in the late winter and early spring. The money just hasn't gotten out. The corruption card has never been played.

You also just shot yourself in the foot. Yes, jobs ARE a lagging indicator, which is why the government needs to pick up the slack in terms of job creation until the private economy can get going again. It's the entire reason why we have stimulus. It's the reason it needs to be done quickly. The lack of stimulus is also why Canada is lagging behind most other industrialized nations in terms of recover. The Conservatives themselves said that the purpose of stimulus is to give money that can create jobs NOW which is why Mr. Baird told Toronto to fuck off when asking money for street cars. Now the story is different? Weird.

[Sir Bandelot]

I think you're a tad confused.

You think wrongly. Just because I ask a loaded question doesn't mean I'm confused... just leading up to something.

I do recall our Prime Minister declaring that the economic crisis did not affect Canada significantly, that Canada is somewhat protected from the US economic downfall and should be able to ride it out.

Next thing you know, bankers and economists are jumping up and down, saying that if US banks get a handout, it puts ours at a disadvantage. If you agree with that I want to ask you HOW, since their banks are in financial crisis and ours are healthy.

Now, a few months later we see that Canada is doing far better than expected. Wow, what a pleasant surprise... or is it?

"the central bank, led by governor Mark Carney, said economic growth would return in the third quarter, marking an end to a short, but deep, recession. Growth of 1.3% was expected in the third quarter, followed by an expansion of 3% in the final three months of the year – for average growth of 2.15% in the second half."

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1979270

I had my doubts before about whether we ever had an economic problem at all, or whether we were financially "obligated" to play along with someone else's big problem. I still have those doubts now. In other words, Canadian tax payers dollars used to bail out another countries banks, and line our bankers pockets nicely at the same time.

Canadians paid down the debt for years to be financially responsible and in a strong position, only to lose that investment and take on a huge deficit, from someone else who was far less responsible. What heros we are

Ok mr. taxman, I got the next bag of cash for you to take away.

[Keepitsimple]

I'd like to know how projects can start when the first snow is less than a month away. Trust me, I've seen the list of projects. Most of them are road projects and water infrastructure upgrades. You can't really do that stuff in the winter and most projects on there are more than month long projects. As for the corruption allegation, that's garbage. As I mentioned before, most of these projects which municipalities apply for money for are mostly all pre-approved and are sitting on shelves due to lack of capital. The application process as it was wasn't really all that stringent of a process to begin with. Most projects were approved months ago in the late winter and early spring. The money just hasn't gotten out. The corruption card has never been played.

I'm sure the process could have gone smoother but nothing like this has ever been tried on such a scale. You're missing a big point about "the money not getting out". Money is not given out ahead of time - the work starts and you send a bill that gets paid by Ottawa. Some cities went ahead and started their projects, knowing that they'd be paid. Others were sceptical or slow-moving for some reason or another. Regardless of the reasons, everything has been flowing freely for awhile. Even the city of Brampton's mayor - the very city that Ignatieff started his rant - said he had absolutely no complaints about how the Feds have delivered. Toronto was a sad, sad story - the biggest recipient of stimulus funding - and they decide to play games while people in the city are begging for work. Miller deserves to be shot for playing with people's lives. Unforgiveable.