Why conservatives are angry at the criminal justice system

Argus · August 30, 2009

I guess the main thing that stands out in this is the disdain for bleeding hearts. My heart bleeds from time to time and I don't see anything wrong with that. I think there's something wrong with people if their's doesn't weep at least a little bit now and then.

Yeah okay, Eyeball. The problem, though is my heart weeps for the 17 year old girl in her grave not the guy who says he "accidentally" choked her to death.

Yours weeps for the killer, for some reason.

I would prefer that our justice system be left in the hands of professionals, not a hateful angry mob.

A guy who chokes a teenage girl to death deserves a hateful angry mob more than a caring, kindly, understanding, bleeding-heart judge who smiles benignly, accepts his explanation that it was all an accident, and then lets him go with a slap on the wrist.

Argus · August 30, 2009

The court makes considerations based on the circumstances. That's why we have sentences varying from life with no parole for 25 to only a few years in jail for a similar crime.

And you feel that an average sentence of 18 months to 3 years (not counting early parole) for taking someone's life is appropriate?

Smallc · August 30, 2009

Where did you get that information from?

Assuming it's true, it really depends on the circumstances of each event. I'm sure that at times it is too short...and at other times no time may have been necessary.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Smallc

Argus · August 30, 2009

Where did you get that information from?
Assuming it's true, it really depends on the circumstances of each event. I'm sure that at times it is too short...and at other times no time may have been necessary.

It was posted above. I thought you were reading this thread. And you seem remarkably willing to suspend all judgement and allow someone else to decide what is right or wrong. I am not. I have seen far, far too many cases where an obvious killer gets a slap on the wrist by getting the charges reduced to manslaughter because the law is so restrictive in terms of evidence that it's almost impossible to prove, under the definitions of the law, intent.

As far as I'm concerned, if you put your hands around someone's throat and keep choking them long enough for them to die that is ample proof of intent.

Contrary to what you might think from watching movies, it takes quite a while to strangle someone. You have to hold them down and keep choking for a couple of minutes. Try that sometime. Put your hands around a bottle or something and squeeze for two full minutes and then tell me someone can strangle another person without intent.

Smallc · August 30, 2009

And you seem remarkably willing to suspend all judgement and allow someone else to decide what is right or wrong. I am not.

Yes, I'm quite willing to let people who know far more about the law and justice than me make the decisions. I don't pretend that I'm smarter than the experts in their own field.

because the law is so restrictive in terms of evidence that it's almost impossible to prove, under the definitions of the law, intent.

Good, that's the way that it should be.

ironstone · August 30, 2009

Justice should, by definition, involve reason. Reason does not allow for one size fits all. Yes, there are cases where people do not get the time that they maybe should have and there are cases where they re offend sooner than they would have. Those cases though are in the minority. Canada is a less dangerous place than it used to be, and there's no evidence that increased jail terms will do anything to make it safer still.

I don't know if all of Canada is less dangerous,Toronto sure seems to have it's share of gun violence,mostly gang related.

Smallc · August 30, 2009

Canada is less dangerous and statistics prove that. As for Toronto, it's one of the safest cities on Earth in terms of violent crime.

eyeball · August 30, 2009

I don't know if all of Canada is less dangerous,Toronto sure seems to have it's share of gun violence,mostly gang related.

The gang violence is related to the drug trade which is related to prohibition which is related to conservative morality which is related to anger and hate.

It always comes back to conservative anger, hate and morality and so long as our laws are driven by these they will only make things worse. I submit that the meaner and more vindictive a criminal justice system is the mre prone to violent criminality society is.

Wild Bill · August 30, 2009

I don't know if all of Canada is less dangerous,Toronto sure seems to have it's share of gun violence,mostly gang related.

Quite true! Jane Creba was not murdered on the streets of Red Deer.

Keepitsimple · August 30, 2009

The gang violence is related to the drug trade which is related to prohibition which is related to conservative morality which is related to anger and hate.
It always comes back to conservative anger, hate and morality and so long as our laws are driven by these they will only make things worse. I submit that the meaner and more vindictive a criminal justice system is the mre prone to violent criminality society is.

Conservative "anger" as you call it - is focused on violent crime. Violence in our society is unacceptable and our laws and sentencing should reflect that. Instead, we have constant plea bargaining that reduces the conviction by at least one level - First degree murder is almost impossible to prove in our system so it's downgraded to second-degree of even manslaugter. Second degree murder charges are more often than not, downgarded to manslaughter....and so on down the violent charges list......and that's only step one - then we get to sentencing where juges use "precedent" and often come up with the lower end of the sentencing scale. Now onto step 3 - parole. They've not been convicted of a lesser charge, with a smaller penalty.....and now they often get out after serving only one-third of their sentence - sometimes less.....and the icing on the cake is the Statutory Release Program in which it's almost automatic that a prisoner is released after serving only two-thirds of their sentence.

Does that make Conservatives angry? You bet it does.....and non-Conservatives who understand our system are angry as well. Violent crime has no place in our society.

Mr.Canada · August 30, 2009

The gang violence is related to the drug trade which is related to prohibition which is related to conservative morality which is related to anger and hate.
It always comes back to conservative anger, hate and morality and so long as our laws are driven by these they will only make things worse. I submit that the meaner and more vindictive a criminal justice system is the mre prone to violent criminality society is.

This is hilarious. So now you blame the conservatives for the state of the black community in Toronto and elsewhere?

They sell drugs and kill people in black gang warfare because of the Conservative mindset?

I've heard it all now. This is typical of left wing thinking. To not take any personal responsibility for ones actions, it's always someone else at fault.

Wow, talk about naive.

Argus · August 30, 2009

Good, that's the way that it should be.

I think that when someone tries to kill someone they should be punished for it, and not be allowed to pretend they had intended something else.

If you stab or shoot someone in the torso or head, hit someone in the head with a hard object, especially repeatedly, or strangle them that ought to be accepted under the law, as evidence of intent.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Argus

Argus · August 30, 2009

The gang violence is related to the drug trade which is related to prohibition which is related to conservative morality which is related to anger and hate.

I know some VERY liberal people, and while most of them would lke to ease the laws on marijuana, not one of them wants to ease the laws on hard drugs.

Smallc · August 30, 2009

that ought to be accepted under the law, as evidence of intent.

The law according to Argus that is.

eyeball · August 30, 2009

This is hilarious. So now you blame the conservatives for the state of the black community in Toronto and elsewhere?

No, I blamed prohibition and conservative anger, hate and morality for maintaining/creating the perfect conditions for more crime not less.

eyeball · August 30, 2009

Violence in our society is unacceptable and our laws and sentencing should reflect that.

They do and society is becoming less violent over time as a result.

Conservatives seem to believe violence can be completely detered from ever happening by using an ever-sliding scale of absolute vindictive sentencing. This has way more to do with the propensity of politicians who like to feed the perception and fear that crime is increasing so they can position themselves as the only thing standing between the public and anarchy. You see the same thing happening with the war on drugs, pump the fear and hype the loathing and voila, you have a never ending galvanizing event.

Its such a tired old gambit but the horrible thing is, it is slowly but inexorably leading towards our becoming a police state.

To be fair the lefties are beavering away just as hard to create a smothering blanket of public safety that is no less stifling.

Its a MAD (mutual assured dictatorship) society we live in.

Argus · August 30, 2009

The law according to Argus that is.

The law according to basic, common sense. What do you think a survey would show?

Edited August 30, 2009 by Argus

Smallc · August 30, 2009

I don't really care what a survey would show. Also, there's no such thing as common sense. That's a false slogan of the right.

lictor616 · August 31, 2009

I don't really care what a survey would show. Also, there's no such thing as common sense. That's a false slogan of the right.

Its true that people who's minds have become befuddled by the cant of liberalism do lack common sense or rather: any common natural understanding of basic human reasoning.

example: Liberals pushing for affirmative action (a systemic discriminatory institute) to combat "systemic racism"...

There is no such thing as common sense to liberals... they are opposed to it because it interferes with their "fantasy play time".

Smallc · August 31, 2009

There is no such thing as common sense, period. If there was, there would be little use for laws that one of us or the other consider to be stupid.

lictor616 · August 31, 2009

There is no such thing as common sense, period. If there was, there would be little use for laws that one of us or the other consider to be stupid.

hahah ? what are you even on about? We have laws because common sense also tells us that some people need negative conditioning to keep them honest...

Argus · August 31, 2009

I don't really care what a survey would show. Also, there's no such thing as common sense. That's a false slogan of the right.

You only say that because you don't have any.

Smallc · August 31, 2009

I say that because of the field of work that I'm in. Common sense isn't something that we i n the Workplace Safety and Health profession generally believe in. We can never assume that anything is common knowledge.

You of course assume that you know what you need to know by now and that you're right with your thinking. I don't have that benefit...or that level of arrogance.