PM to appoint Tory insiders to Senate

[madmax]

If the concern was a lack of senators (which it wasn't), or that they should more validly represent regional interests instead of partisan hackdom, then it would have been more in keeping with the spirit of reform to ask the provinces to propose apropriate candidates.

That should give you a hint on how honest and open Senate Reforms would be. The goal is to create an illusion of democracy. Nor should the Senate become another level of government. Countries that have elected Senates, also have movements to abolish them.

[Smallc]

2) No abolishing the Senate easier to accomplish then changing the Senate role. Provinces abolished their Senates and continued to function.

No, it would be harder to get that kind of Constitutional change. This has absolutely no relation to what the provinces did.

[Smallc]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...e-he-would.aspx

I like this article.

[g_bambino]

1) yes he can

2) Provinces abolished their Senates and continued to function.

3) The reason to abolish the Senate is because Status quo is not acceptable. Short of Senators, few would miss the Senate.

No, he can't. All eleven legislatures can. But, remember that the provinces are not themselves federations; is there any federal country on the planet that operates with a unicameral parliament? Given the importance of that kind of regional representation in the federal sphere, you finding the Senate unacceptable is of little matter.

[Smallc]

New Zealand...but the apparently want a Senate.

[madmax]

No, it would be harder to get that kind of Constitutional change. This has absolutely no relation to what the provinces did.

First of all, the Provinces got rid of their own Senates and the sky didn't fall.

Second, as this article covers, Senate Reform will take an already unbalanced Senate, and create more imbalance amongst the Provinces. It is why it is a non starter among many Provincial Leaders, past and present.

This article covers the period after the last round of Senate Appointments and suggests that more of the same was coming.

It's a safe bet that Phalen's Senate replacement will be appointed

Cape Breton Post

Wed 18 Mar 2009

Page: A6

Byline: Darrell Kyte

Senate reform has long been an issue in this country. Former Reform

Party leader Preston Manning often spoke of the benefits of a Triple-E

Senate: Equal, Elected, and Effective. A Triple-E Senate was a

prominent plank in the Reform Party's platform because the party

believed such a body would ensure provincial equality.

It should be acknowledged that larger provinces are underrepresented

in the Senate. For instance, Ontario with a population of more than 12

million has 24 senators while Nova Scotia has 10 senators with a

population of fewer than one million.

A Triple-E Senate would mean Prince Edward Island, with a population

of about 136,000, would have the same number of senators as Ontario.

This would be similar to the U.S. system in which Vermont, with a

population of just over 600, 000, has the same number of senators as

California, with a population nearing 37 million

Harper's commitment to Senate reform is far from certain, however.

His government has sent mixed signals in this regard. His record on

Senate reform is decidedly mixed. Harper did appoint Brown to the

Senate in 2007. Also, his government has made some half-hearted

attempts to reform the Senate.

Despite such moves, Harper has made some controversial appointments

to the Senate. For example, he appointed Michael Fortier to the Senate

in early 2006 so Fortier could serve as minister of public works. This

was an unpopular move....

This past December, Harper provided numerous gifts to Conservative

supporters. He stacked the Senate just before Christmas with 18

appointments. Most assume the appointments were made in case his

government fell to the Liberal-NDP coalition. Prominent appointments

include Mike Duffy and Pamela Wallin. All in all, Harper's actions as

prime minister are hardly encouraging to proponents of Senate reform.

Attempting to give the Senate democratic legitimacy by electing

senators in provincial elections would fundamentally alter our system

of governance. An elected Senate would, rightfully, believe it had as

much right to represent the public as does the House of Commons. The

Chamber of Sober Second Thought would become a partisan hothouse. It

is not clear such a chamber would serve the interest of Canadians.

To their credit, the federal NDP called for a referendum on Senate

reform in late 2007. NDP Leader Jack Layton suggested the Senate is "a

19th century institution that has no place in a modern democracy in

the 21st century." The provinces of British Columbia, Ontario,

Saskatchewan and Manitoba advocate abolishing the Senate as well.

It is time to seriously consider abolishing the Senate. We must ask

ourselves whether we need this anachronistic, superfluous body. Rather

than promote election to our outdated upper chamber, reformers should

seek its abolition.

[jdobbin]

First of all, the Provinces got rid of their own Senates and the sky didn't fall.

True. But they didn't have an amending formula that make the change very difficult.

Second, as this article covers, Senate Reform will take an already unbalanced Senate, and create more imbalance amongst the Provinces. It is why it is a non starter among many Provincial Leaders, past and present.

This article covers the period after the last round of Senate Appointments and suggests that more of the same was coming.

I don't doubt there are imbalances.

Do you think we could just open the Constitution and get the amount of provinces on board to support abolition.

By the way, the article you posted said Manitoba favours abolition. Sort of. Doer was also looking at elections at the time he resigned. As with many things, he was half and half on it.

[madmax]

No, he can't. All eleven legislatures can. But, remember that the provinces are not themselves federations; is there any federal country on the planet that operates with a unicameral parliament? Given the importance of that kind of regional representation in the federal sphere, you finding the Senate unacceptable is of little matter.

The democractic elected body of the house, should be the supreme governing body and without being 2nd guessed by an appointed or elected Senate. A triple E Senate purpose is designed to End Run the HOC. To undermine the will of the people and their elected MPs.

We can fix the HOC a heck of alot easier then we can shape or reform the Senate.

[madmax]

Do you think we could just open the Constitution and get the amount of provinces on board to support abolition.

YUP. in fact Canadians in favour of abolishing the Senate will have a much easier time of it, then this group.

http://abolishthesenate.org/ In the US.

By the way, the article you posted said Manitoba favours abolition. Sort of. Doer was also looking at elections at the time he resigned. As with many things, he was half and half on it.

In the past, B.C.'s Gordon Campbell, Manitoba's Gary Doer, Ontario's Dalton McGuinty, and Saskatchewan's Lorne Calvert have said they favour doing away with the Senate. And Alberta's Ralph Klein is totally dissatisfied with the Senate as it exists, wanting Harper to appoint his province's elected senators-in-waiting to the chamber as soon as possible. Edited August 30, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

I have a question for you Jerry. Would you actually trust the government if it were built more like the one in the US?

I wouldn't, which is why Senate Reform as Triple E vs Abolishment is a very bad choice.

[jdobbin]

YUP. in fact Canadians in favour of abolishing the Senate will have a much easier time of it, then this group.

My view, given our record with Constitutional change, is that the provinces will want to add things other than Senate abolition simply because if that is open to change, maybe they can get something else in.

Harper doesn't want abolition so it is a non-starter.

I don't think the Liberals see any benefit in opening up the Constitution if you don't have enough agreement that it is the only thing that will be changed.

In the past, B.C.'s Gordon Campbell, Manitoba's Gary Doer, Ontario's Dalton McGuinty, and Saskatchewan's Lorne Calvert have said they favour doing away with the Senate. And Alberta's Ralph Klein is totally dissatisfied with the Senate as it exists, wanting Harper to appoint his province's elected senators-in-waiting to the chamber as soon as possible.

Doer also thought about elections and it is being studied now. I don't know if you can say where the NDP will go now.

Edited August 30, 2009 by jdobbin

[madmax]

Doer also thought about elections and it is being studied now. I don't know if you can say where the NDP will go now.

From Hansard in May 2009, 3rd Session 39 Legislature.

Our Premier has said it many times, his preferred option is that it should be abolished.

That is also the position of the Manitoba NDP and the government.

[madmax]

Once all the Provinces start arguing, and they will. You can rest assured only two choices will be viable and as public exasperation continues, the decision to abolish the Senate will become the most popular and accepted choice.

BTW... Senate talk is something that comes up each and everytime there is a round of appointments. Then these threads go back in time and disappear until the next round of patronage...

Edited August 30, 2009 by madmax

[jdobbin]

From Hansard in May 2009, 3rd Session 39 Legislature.

That is also the position of the Manitoba NDP and the government.

Still means he was also looking at elections. This was typical of Doer. On both sides of the issue.

[jdobbin]

Once all the Provinces start arguing, and they will. You can rest assured only two choices will be viable and as public exasperation continues, the decision to abolish the Senate will become the most popular and accepted choice.

Along with throwing in a lot of other stuff.

So it goes with Constitutional talks. Abolish Senate, get Quebec to sign on, aboriginal issues, etc, etc.

This will be followed by talk of separation, referendums, stock market going down and a mighty defeat for any government that wishes to go this route.

[Mr.Canada]

Along with throwing in a lot of other stuff.

So it goes with Constitutional talks. Abolish Senate, get Quebec to sign on, aboriginal issues, etc, etc.

This will be followed by talk of separation, referendums, stock market going down and a mighty defeat for any government that wishes to go this route.

Geez jdobbin you whine and cry an awful lot. You're just sore it isn't more Liberals being appointed, if it were you'd be making some post about how great Canada is and what a richer place it will be with some queer sitting in the Senate or some such...so save it, it's getting old and it's pathetic frankly.

Almost every post you make is crying or whining about something...

On a side note when is Ignotieff going to wipe t he floor with Harper? You've said many times how great Ignotieff will be for Canada even if he was absent from it for 35 years.

[Smallc]

The democractic elected body of the house, should be the supreme governing body and without being 2nd guessed by an appointed or elected Senate.

Yes, how dare the will of the majority be challenged...even when it's wrong.

[Smallc]

First of all, the Provinces got rid of their own Senates and the sky didn't fall.

We're not talking about a province here, are we. They are completely different cases. Besides, whether or not the sky would fall is irrelevant. The change requires the consent of all involved legislative bodies for abolition.

Second, as this article covers, Senate Reform will take an already unbalanced Senate, and create more imbalance amongst the Provinces. It is why it is a non starter among many Provincial Leaders, past and present.

Senates generally aren't set up by population. Ours is distributed by region (though a fix is necessary on the East Coast). The proposal is for distribution by province. The idea is that all regions or provinces have equal say. This acts as a check on the majority, or mob. Our appointed Senate currently acts as a further check.

[g_bambino]

New Zealand...but the apparently want a Senate.

New Zealand isn't a federation.

[g_bambino]

The democractic elected body of the house, should be the supreme governing body and without being 2nd guessed by an appointed or elected Senate. A triple E Senate purpose is designed to End Run the HOC. To undermine the will of the people and their elected MPs.

The Commons has never, ever governed. I think you mean that it should be the supreme legislative body; and it is. Though, like the Crown, it is empowered to do so, convention holds that the Senate generally acquiesces to the desires of the elected Commons, only occasionally sending bills back to the lower house for re-evaluation. This is all part of a system of checks against the excesses of the transient, fickle mess of politics. What you seem to desire is a removal of the balancing weights all-together, allowing for a tyrannical majority to run amok over democracy, eliminating the guarantee of the same basic freedoms for everyone, including the minority.

[Smallc]

New Zealand isn't a federation.

You're right, my bad. They still apparently want a Senate though.

[g_bambino]

You're right, my bad. They still apparently want a Senate though.

Interesting, if true. That would mean they want their upper house back; they abolished their Legislative Council in 1951.

[Smallc]

I read it a couple places on the interweb...whether or not it's true, I can't say for certain.

[jdobbin]

Geez jdobbin you whine and cry an awful lot. You're just sore it isn't more Liberals being appointed, if it were you'd be making some post about how great Canada is and what a richer place it will be with some queer sitting in the Senate or some such...so save it, it's getting old and it's pathetic frankly.

You seem to personalize a lot. I'm sorry for all the anger you have in your heart. It must make baby Jesus cry.

Almost every post you make is crying or whining about something...

Every one of your posts is one that personalizes.

On a side note when is Ignotieff going to wipe t he floor with Harper? You've said many times how great Ignotieff will be for Canada even if he was absent from it for 35 years.

You seem to have problem spelling Ignatieff.

[Shady]

This thread is a joke. When you strip away the Dobbin-style spin, it's basically titled Harper appointing Conservatives to Senate.

I'm shocked I tells ya, shocked!