NDP Convention

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Dippers can hold a thousand conventions but it will not reverse their fortunes. As the union movement deteriorates their support base falls as well. If you remove the union support numbers from the NDP you go straight to single digits. They are mired in the perpetuation of mediocrity reducing all to the lowest commonality, they call it solidarity. Until they see the light and offer a radical difference in their approach they will but stuck where they are trying to reduce their losses instead of building and consolidating their gains. They fight a losing battle for their very existence.

[Moonbox]

See here is the thing the Knives don't come out in our party for not winning, Look at Tommy, look at Alexa, they come for not pushing for real social policy reform. Layton I beat if he loses seats will step down not because the party wont back him but because he will feel he did what he could for the party.

Layton should have backed down after the last election. His political acumen is based entirely on clichéd one-liners and car-salesmen smiles. He's done nothing for the NDP since he started and it's a testament to how backwards the party's thinking is that they kept him so long. Stick with bad and unpopular policy and a bad an unpopular leader in the hopes that the votes will follow....

To me at least, it seems like the NDP is less interested in winning elections and more interested in just perpetually appeasing a niche group of voters. At least they keep their jobs that way.

[punked]

Layton should have backed down after the last election. His political acumen is based entirely on clichéd one-liners and car-salesmen smiles. He's done nothing for the NDP since he started and it's a testament to how backwards the party's thinking is that they kept him so long. Stick with bad and unpopular policy and a bad an unpopular leader in the hopes that the votes will follow....

To me at least, it seems like the NDP is less interested in winning elections and more interested in just perpetually appeasing a niche group of voters. At least they keep their jobs that way.

It seems to me the NDP have been out in front of the Liberals on all issues. I know it is unpopular to take on issues until they become popular but I don't believe what you say. Bill C-280 was an NDP bill to fix EI it went through everything but the last vote on the last vote the Liberals stayed home so they could have a panel with Harper and let the bill fail. That is doing something unlike the Liberals and Conservatives but hey maybe if you say something enough it will be true. Probably not but maybe if you close your eyes and believe enough.

[jdobbin]

It seems to me the NDP have been out in front of the Liberals on all issues. I know it is unpopular to take on issues until they become popular but I don't believe what you say.

Why do you think it important of the federal front and not on the provincial side?

[punked]

Why do you think it important of the federal front and not on the provincial side?

What does that even mean?

[jdobbin]

What does that even mean?

It means you dismissed Liberals in Manitoba as useless whereas the fourth party in the Commons is amazing.

Edited August 23, 2009 by jdobbin

[punked]

It means you dismissed Liberals in Manitoba as useless whereas the forth party in the Commons is amazing.

I dismiss the Liberals in Manitoba becuase they haven't shown me any reason to break away from the NDP. The NDP up spending on Education in Manitoba while Federal Liberals cut it, the NDP up spending on Health care while the Liberals cut it federally, the NDP tuition freeze while the Federal Liberals watch tuition go through the roof, NDP create affordable housing while the Federal Liberals killed the program. They did all that and delivered balance budgets and economic growth. I have no reason to vote for the Liberals, Federally they promised me one thing and then did another why should I believe this is not a trait across the board.

Made the mistake of voting for the Liberals once they promised me NAFTA would be negotiated to be free that never happened, they promised me to look at the GST they never did that either. I have no reason to trust a Liberal again in my life and until I see a Liberal I trust, and I promise you Dobbin they might exist although they will never get a leadership role, I am not wavering. At least with Harper I know what I am getting.

Edited August 23, 2009 by punked

[jdobbin]

I dismiss the Liberals in Manitoba becuase they haven't shown me any reason to break away from the NDP.

You don't live in Manitoba and yet you dismiss everything the they do as Parliamentarians.

Made the mistake of voting for the Liberals once they promised me NAFTA would be negotiated to be free that never happened, they promised me to look at the GST they never did that either. I have no reason to trust a Liberal again in my life and until I see a Liberal I trust, and I promise you Dobbin they might exist although they will never get a leadership role, I am not wavering. At least with Harper I know what I am getting.

Once again you are talking about federal Liberals.

Edited August 23, 2009 by jdobbin

[madmax]

The Dippers can hold a thousand conventions but it will not reverse their fortunes. As the union movement deteriorates their support base falls as well. If you remove the union support numbers from the NDP you go straight to single digits. They are mired in the perpetuation of mediocrity reducing all to the lowest commonality, they call it solidarity. Until they see the light and offer a radical difference in their approach they will but stuck where they are trying to reduce their losses instead of building and consolidating their gains. They fight a losing battle for their very existence.

The NDP lost the Unions around 1993 to 1995, and many never came back. While there are still unions who support the NDP, I think it is no surprise that in a Province Like Ontario, the Liberals received more in Union donations then the NDP. Unions like any other group that candidates meet with and federal leaders meet with, engage with all parties. They are just not as influential as the registered lobbyiests that gnaw the ears of the CPC and LPC MPs.

Regardless, the NDP was in single digits in 1993. The NDP is in their traditional range of 15% to 18%.

Then NDP is popular in rural ridings, sweeping many Northern regions.

The NDP just received the most seats in Ontario in its history, and that is with the Stench of the Bob Rae Government still resonating with voters. Thus the NDP received more seats in Ontario then ED Broadbent did, around 6 more, and Ed Ran during a period of strong unions and when those unions did support the NDP. That support was lost when Ed Stepped down and Audrey stepped up.

A candidate running for the NDP do so because he/she supports the brand, not because of the popularity of the brand. IT is often an uphill battle in a stream with the wind against you. Those candidates take alot of flak from people, yet keep putting their feet forward. IT is no suprise that the NDP caucus is considered to be the most efficient and well prepared in the house.

It is the purpose of the leader to expand the party to receive as many seats as possible. This is true of all parties. Considering the background behind the NDP, getting 37 seats, and winning in Alberta, Quebeca and Newfoundland is no small feat for such a party.

The NDP is the only elected alternative in Alberta.

The NDP will never lose a battle for its existance. It will go up and it will go down, but there is 70 years of data behind the NDP to suggest that they will always be around and always have strong candidates that will get elected, and strong candidates that will need to run 3 or 4 or more times to get in if ever. It is the nature of the party and politics.

The NDP is not a fad, nor does it ride high in brand name, and I don't know when it ever has.

Yet as much as people complain, criticise and rip this party to shreds. There has been a trend of recent.

13 seats, 19 seats, 29 seats, 37 seats.

And the question is ... is there more in the tank, or will it adjust to another figure within the margin of their polling figures.

A small % here or there shifts NDP seats as many seats won are often squeakers. Safe NDP seats do not exist, they have to work in the trenches each and every time.

The bottom line is.... Ed Broadbent became extremely popular, and yet still achieved on 44 seats.

Jack Layton... is almost there, and has not been in office as long as Ed Broadbent.

The public elects their candidates and regardless of the negative hype, many times an NDP candidate is chosen, for reasons that go beyond the popularity ratings of the leader.

As long as some 1300 to 1500 delegates show up and vote on resolutions for the party , then democracy is being upheld and that is all that can be asked of such conventions.

Getting parties elected is a whole different ballgame.

[Topaz]

So far the NDP, hasn't had the trust to get elected to the PMO and I don't think its going to happen, at least, not in my life time. I think the NDP have good ideas but if they want to use them then, they should united with the Greens and Libs. I know NDPers don't want that but what would come first the uniting of parties or the NDP getting the PMO?

[jdobbin]

The NDP is the only elected alternative in Alberta.

In what capacity? Provincial?

Federally, this past election they were second with under 13% of support. You think they have permanently replaced Liberals there as second place party?

[madmax]

Layton should have backed down after the last election. His political acumen is based entirely on clichéd one-liners and car-salesmen smiles. He's done nothing for the NDP since he started and it's a testament to how backwards the party's thinking is that they kept him so long. Stick with bad and unpopular policy and a bad an unpopular leader in the hopes that the votes will follow....

To me at least, it seems like the NDP is less interested in winning elections and more interested in just perpetually appeasing a niche group of voters. At least they keep their jobs that way.

Just to clarify.... Jack Layton moved the party from 13 seats, to 19 seats to 29 seats to 37 Seats and from

Alexa McDonough 13 Seats 1,093,748 8.51%

To this...

Jack Layton 37 Seats 2,517,075 18.13% since taking over 6 years ago.

The NDP would do no better with any other leader and would not likely be above 2.5 Million votes without Jack Layton taking over a party that has slide to single digits, had a very moderate approach to everything and was completely ignored by the media and public prior to his assension.

There is no doubt that Jack Layton is made for Television and he performs on Television better then any other leader. However, prior to becoming NDP leader Layton would have had to cut his teeth somewhere, and I highly doubt it was in media, but within social action. Its rare for someone to come out of nowhere and knock off a highly popular Liberal Cabinet Minister who had just brought AC/DC the Stones, and tonnes of other good bands into Toronto.

Moreover, the Style of Layton has little effect on serving MPs like Stoffer or Godin out on the east coast other then having a larger caucus each time they come back from an election.

As for Cliched one liners.....

1) Dion campaigned on a very indepth Carbon Tax and bombed

2) Harper campaign on nothing.... yes, they called an election and really had no campaign.

3) The NDP had a strong campaign and platform, and we know, cliches work.

However, of the television commercials from last year....

The NDPs were the best. They were bright, funny, light hearted and in todays multi media environment, largely unseen by those who don't watch Canadian Television.

The CPC commercials essentially continued to reinforce Dion was a boob, and a strong fear campaign against the LPC platform

The Liberal Commercials were a sorry state of affairs. Ironically a sign of things to come, when Dion spoke on Television a month after the election.

Regardless, the NDP is not one to toss out leaders because of a pack of wolves calls for it. Other parties do this, and often undermine their leaders at every chance.

IIRC ... the blood was out for Harper to step down, many comments here on MLW coming from well known CPC supporters who were very unhappy with the hole he dug right after the election. While Harper managed to put the shovel down, their is little doubt that the CPC aren't still a few feet short of level ground.

Obviously all the leaders have flaws and their parties will have to mask over these image problems.

Harper is his own worst enemy.

Ignatieff treats human life as if it were an afterthought

and Jack Layton is compared to the Computer guy.....

Sales is a great field to be in. Many people don't like sales. Sales shouldn't be mocked. It is part of our economy, and a large parti of it.

The NDP will keep Jack Layton as long as he can do his job, and the arm chair critics will be shunted aside until that day comes with real numbers after an election that show that Layton has worked past his best before date.

[madmax]

So far the NDP, hasn't had the trust to get elected to the PMO and I don't think its going to happen, at least, not in my life time.

They have not received that trust federally.

I think the NDP have good ideas but if they want to use them then, they should united with the Greens and Libs. I know NDPers don't want that but what would come first the uniting of parties or the NDP getting the PMO?

If the NDP join the Liberals, then you have no NDP and you have a Liberal Party. Meanwhile those swing NDP/CPC voters many of whom left the NDP to support Reform provide the fiscal right wing of the NDP would go back CPC or some Libertarian party.

Perhaps when one realized that from about 1993 during the Chretian reign, many many many NDP voters moved to the Liberals on the campaign of the Little red Book. End to Free Trade, End to GST, Implementation of Child Care. And after 13 years, it was very clear that the Reform policies were having a greater effect on Liberal thinking and thus the Centre Right of the LPC moved with the Reform party to drive fiscal policy while backpeddling on all issues of social advancement, even a decade after balancing the books. The people who pay taxes would have to wait to receive services.

The clear case of life for the NDP within the LPC was clearly demonstrated by Ignatieff. He dumped the socialists and joined with the CPC. A budget that attacked 40 years of womens fight for equality, pay and work, where not important.

The only benefit that would occur if the NDP joined the Liberals, is that the LPC wouldn't have to listen to the NDP any longer and the NDP policies would be silenced for good. That polices such as EI reform could continue to be diluted under Liberal Governments as they had done while have the support of many NDP swing voters.

The NDP are at one of their highest points in their history. And with the LPC turning their backs on the NDP after a very very very brief one night stand....

I don't see this happening ever.

[madmax]

In what capacity? Provincial?

To clarify.. Federal NDP convention, Federal NDP party, Federal NDP Seat

Although I see the ball has moved around on some provincial stuff throughout this thread.

Federally, this past election they were second with under 13% of support. You think they have permanently replaced Liberals there as second place party?

No, I think if anyone bet me a $million that the NDP would win a seat in Alberta and I would have taken it and become a pauper on election night. A clean CPC sweep is what was expected. And everyone says the NDP are dead and this happens. Obviously some hard work went into play.

As for replacing the Liberals permanently as the 2nd place party..... I'll I can note is that ...

The NDP replaced the LPC as the 2nd place party in popular vote in

BC

Alb

Sask

Man

NS

IIRC.

That doesn't always add up to seats, as the LPC had less votes in Sask but the NDP were shut out.

However, there is a tendency to ignore that the NDP took a seat in Alberta but not ignore that the LPC have ONE seat in Sask.

Essentially, anything can happen in an election campaign. And between campaigns people speculate.

The NDP did do well in the 2008 campaign, all things considered.

The NDP convention has obviously got people talking.

What all this leads up to is anyones guess.

[waldo]

There is no doubt that Jack Layton is made for Television and he performs on Television better then any other leader.

yup - that video professor thingee never gets tired... as seen on TV!!!

care to suggest the next number in that "upward" NDP seat trend

[madmax]

yup - that video professor thingee never gets tired... as seen on TV!!!

and Jack Layton is compared to the Computer guy.....

Yes, the name was lost on me...... FYI I did post his political view on MLW last year.

care to suggest the next number in that "upward" NDP seat trend

That'd be another poll....

[jdobbin]

To clarify.. Federal NDP convention, Federal NDP party, Federal NDP Seat

Although I see the ball has moved around on some provincial stuff throughout this thread.

As for replacing the Liberals permanently as the 2nd place party..... I'll I can note is that ...

The NDP replaced the LPC as the 2nd place party in popular vote in

BC

Alb

Sask

Man

NS

And you think this is permanent?

That doesn't always add up to seats, as the LPC had less votes in Sask but the NDP were shut out.

However, there is a tendency to ignore that the NDP took a seat in Alberta but not ignore that the LPC have ONE seat in Sask.

Who exactly is ignoring it?

The NDP did do well in the 2008 campaign, all things considered.

The NDP convention has obviously got people talking.

What all this leads up to is anyones guess.

Think all I've suggested is that if Layton can't move the numbers forward in the next election, it is hard to see that he will fight another election thereafter.

The Liberals probably performed the poorest since the 1980s. Disunity was a huge factor in their poor performance then. It is has been an undercurrent of why things have been so bad since 2006.

The Liberals are a terrible opposition party in the last few decades. I can still remember how disinterested Chretien was in Opposition.

At present, there is no disunity in the party. Fundraising has adapted and passed the Tories in the last quarter. Organization is much much better.

The main issue to resolve is policy. This is not much different than the Pearson years where a series of minorities marked the time. The Liberals were able to break out of this in part by a liberal policy conference not limited to Liberal party members.

I think this is what needs to be done now.

[punked]

yup - that video professor thingee never gets tired... as seen on TV!!!

care to suggest the next number in that "upward" NDP seat trend

And Ignatieff looks like Count Chocula so what is your point?

[jdobbin]

And Ignatieff looks like Count Chocula so what is your point?

I suppose the point is that people in Canada judge you on how you look, how you talk, what gender you are and how old you are.

We can be a nasty, brutish people.

[waldo]

And Ignatieff looks like Count Chocula so what is your point?

perhaps that offering up a related light-hearted reference to "TV presence/performance"... doesn't play well for over-sensitive types. You've pretty much had a relatively free-run with your over-played hand... few have really taken you to task over your incessant shilling for the NDP. But damnit! That Count Chocula slam is the last straw - to the mattresses! Oh right - carry on!

Edited August 23, 2009 by waldo

[bush_cheney2004]

And Ignatieff looks like Count Chocula so what is your point?

Count Chocula® is the registered trademark of General Mills, Inc. (USA)

[madmax]

And you think this is permanent?

I don't, but I highly doubt That NDPers believe in the permance of any seats or votes. That view of permanance is often the turf for Liberal arrogance. CCF/NDP seats are never secure.

Think all I've suggested is that if Layton can't move the numbers forward in the next election, it is hard to see that he will fight another election thereafter.

All he has to do is avoid a collapse. There are few people willing to take the heapings of abuse often tossed at NDP leaders. The only fact is, through all the complaining about Layton that I have seen over the past 5 years, he has continued to move the ball forward. If it goes back 10 yards it won't be a problem, if its in their own end zone, then even the NDP will get rid of a leader.

Looking at the CCF, Coldwell took the CCF up to 28 seats, went back to 13 eventually got it back up to 25 and when the CCF got creamed and went back to 8 seats, a new leader and new party appeared. Even though the NDP vote total went down by only 15,000 nationwide, it cost them 17 seats. CCF/NDP seats are never secure. 1940 J.S. Woodsworth 8 seats 388,058 8.42%

1945 M.J. Coldwell 28 seats 815,720 15.55%

1949 M.J. Coldwell 13 seats 785,910 13.42%

1953 M.J. Coldwell 23 seats 636,310 11.28%

1957 M.J. Coldwell 25 seats 707,828 10.71%

1958 M.J. Coldwell 8 seats 692,668 9.49%

The Liberals are a terrible opposition party in the last few decades. I can still remember how disinterested Chretien was in Opposition.

They still are a terrible opposition party. If you have voted for the government 70 to 90 confidence votes in a row, you are not an opposition party, but a supporter of the government.

The main issue to resolve is policy. This is not much different than the Pearson years where a series of minorities marked the time. The Liberals were able to break out of this in part by a liberal policy conference not limited to Liberal party members.

I think this is what needs to be done now.

We just came full circle.... LOL

Just to clarify, the NDP had a policy conference, where they talked ... policy at their convention.

Edited August 23, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

Count Chocula® is the registered trademark of General Mills, Inc. (USA)

I bet he is a Republican too.

[jdobbin]

I don't, but I highly doubt That NDPers believe in the permance of any seats or votes. That view of permanance is often the turf for Liberal arrogance. CCF/NDP seats are never secure.

I tend to disagree. Being from Manitoba, we can see that there quite a few seats that have the air of permence about them. Only when there was so much anger pent up against both the NDP and Tory brand have Liberals had breakthroughs in many seats. Otherwise, there are a number of seats that generally safe seats for NDP.

Unless, you think Winnipeg Transcona is not a secure seat.

If NDP don't aspire to making permanent gains in voter percentage at the national level, they are ignoring the advice that Doer gave them at the convention.

All he has to do is avoid a collapse. There are few people willing to take the heapings of abuse often tossed at NDP leaders. The only fact is, through all the complaining about Layton that I have seen over the past 5 years, he has continued to move the ball forward. If it goes back 10 yards it won't be a problem, if its in their own end zone, then even the NDP will get rid of a leader.

I disagree. As popular as Broadbent was, when the vote and seat count started going the other way, he stepped aside.

Looking at the CCF, Coldwell took the CCF up to 28 seats, went back to 13 eventually got it back up to 25 and when the CCF got creamed and went back to 8 seats, a new leader and new party appeared. Even though the NDP vote total went down by only 15,000 nationwide, it cost them 17 seats. CCF/NDP seats are never secure.

Once again, that might be true with some seats but not true of others.

They still are a terrible opposition party. If you have voted for the government 70 to 90 confidence votes in a row, you are not an opposition party, but a supporter of the government.

And they would have been a terrible Opposition party if they allowed 70 to 90 elections and you would be screaming at that right now too.

We just came full circle.... LOL

Just to clarify, the NDP had a policy conference, where they talked ... policy at their convention.

So many policies were deferred that I'm still not sure what their platform will be in the election.

And as far as what they did agree to in a small business tax cut, I disagree with it. As some experts have suggested in both Manitoba and on a national level, there are better cuts to make to spur growth.

[madmax]

Unless, you think Winnipeg Transcona is not a secure seat.

I told you... I don't talk Manitoba.. I reserve that for you

If NDP don't aspire to making permanent gains in voter percentage at the national level, they are ignoring the advice that Doer gave them at the convention.

Then maybe he will be the next Federal Leader. Does he speak Frenc?

Considering that the PCs could go to 2 seats from a Majority in 1993, and the NDP reduced to 8 or something, suggests that no party is safe. However Liberals are often arrogant, forgetful and few remember 40 in 84.

I disagree. As popular as Broadbent was, when the vote and seat count started going the other way, he stepped aside.

Erm. Ed left at the height of NDP acceptance, in seats, votes and popularity of its leader vs the leaders of the other party in 1988.

"When he stepped down after 15 years as federal leader of the NDP in 1989".

The vote and seat count didn't go "the other way" until mid 1993 during a period of two unpopular NDP Premiers and a rookie Federal Leader.

Once again, that might be true with some seats but not true of others.

Again, that is how Liberals think, I don't believe there is a New Democrat out there who thinks his/her seat is safe. Tommy Douglas, David Lewis, are among those who lost seats. John Tory proved Provincially that a "Safe PC seat" with 60% majority in a riding that had never seen red, since its creation, could be lost.

And they would have been a terrible Opposition party if they allowed 70 to 90 elections and you would be screaming at that right now too.

The LPC are a terrible opposition party. They even let the CPC pull the plug on them, while voting with the CPC 100%. Fact is, with the LPC being the lapdogs of the CPC, I already saw one unnecessary election in 08.

So many policies were deferred that I'm still not sure what their platform will be in the election.

Hint...

the NDP platform doesn't change

And as far as what they did agree to in a small business tax cut, I disagree with it. As some experts have suggested in both Manitoba and on a national level, there are better cuts to make to spur growth.

And I have no use for those experts. Small business is driving the damned economy, and small business has been carrying the load in job creation. Manitoba is the best set Province during this downturn.

Maybe they are just doing it right after all.... but then... I say again. I don't understand Manitoba, which is why I rely on you to inform me.