HAMAS, THE GAZA WAR AND ACCOUNTABILITY UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW

[dub]

Thanks for the info, but

1. Some incorrect statements, myths and outright lies need to be corrected, if for nothing else then in order to register the recognition of their falseness,

This is particularly important, for many claims, pure lies of the Zionists and their supporters went uncontested and are now accepted by probably the majority of Canadians as true. Examples: the reasons for the failure of the Camp David summit; Ahmadinejad "threatened Israel with annihilation".

2. Even my worse opponents can and often do make statements, which I agree with or find they deserve serious response.

3. The person behind the posted opinions, claims, statements may be a nice individual in reality despite anything he/she posts.

i agree with a lot of your points. however, i decided to take another poster's advice and put DoP on ignore after i noticed how many times he came back with some outrageous and unrelated comment to posts where his own comments were ripped apart.

example of this (paraphrasing):

DoP: hamas used its civilian population as human shield and so its their fault that civilians were killed in gaza.

me: an amnesty international investigation and report came to the conclusion that hamas did not use its civilians as human shield and in fact, numerous investigations came to the conclusion that the IDF used gaza civilians, including children as human shield.

DoP: the grand mufti was basically a nazi general and have you ever wondered why both hamas and hezbollah do the nazi salut?

this type of exchange was repeated numerous times.

however, it's still fun to see these tireless zionist propagandists getting slapped around by truth and facts.

[Cato]

Maybe I was mixing them up with the LPC's bribing and virtual sale of their office

Whatever, it is irrelevant. The issue was the Palestinian election in 2006. Come back if you have the proof of some serious problem with how the elections were conducted. Until then, your

Those "elections" were more like armed combat with ballot boxes as props remains garbage, one in the stockpile of Zionist lies.

In the meantime, if you are looking for examples of fraudelent elections, don't go too far. Look for Florida, look for rigged voting machines. The world's leading democracy offers more than enough examples.

2 x 4; you nailed that

I doubt you understand it, for it is a local issue. One of the ministers in the BC NDP government, IIRC it was Harry Lali, mentioned something like he would have used a 2x4 (the opposition would have been at the receiving end). Later he explained reporters, that earlier, while he had been working on construction (?), he too had used a 2x4 to support his arguments, and that some participants sometimes had been bloody when leaving the meeting.

This must have been about ten years ago, so some of the details may not be accurate.

How do you know my character so well for a new poster

1. I posted seems to be.... A lawyer should be able to distinguish that from an unconditional statement.

2. You posted enough material for a thorough study in a very short time.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Cato

[jbg]

Whatever, it is irrelevant. The issue was the Palestinian election in 2006. Come back if you have the proof of some serious problem with how the elections were conducted. Until then, your ____ Those "elections" were more like armed combat with ballot boxes as props remains garbage, one in the stockpile of Zionist lies.

I remember reading at the time that there was significant violence and intimidation.

In the meantime, if you are looking for examples of fraudelent elections, don't go too far. Look for Florida, look for rigged voting machines. The world's leading democracy offers more than enough examples.

Frankly, state by state voting (sort of first past the post on steroids or more a rampage) has its weaknesses. Many Democrats support direct popular election, forgetting that Republicans would then spend lots of time in vote-rich areas such as suburban and rural parts of California, Illinois and New York that frequently vote Republican but whose votes are now wasted votes since the states as a whole, driven by urban areas such as San Fransisco (LA is less Democratic), Chicago and New York City are overwhelming Democratic in Federal votes. Interestingly, while Florida may have had vote fraud favoring the Republicans in certain areas, the Democrats were not pushing for hand recounts throughout the State. Certain areas may well have turned up more GOP ballots.

I doubt you understand it, for it is a local issue. One of the ministers in the BC NDP government, IIRC it was Harry Lali, mentioned something like he would have used a 2x4 (the opposition would have been at the receiving end). Later he explained reporters, that earlier, while he had been working on construction (?), he too had used a 2x4 to support his arguments, and that some participants sometimes had been bloody when leaving the meeting.

If you want to discuss 2 x 4's and BC, what about Glen Clark and his "home construction"? He was not just "(o)ne of the ministers in the BC NDP government" but was the Premier.

1. I posted seems to be.... A lawyer should be able to distinguish that from an unconditional statement.

2. You posted enough material for a thorough study in a very short time.

Have you been making a study of my posts in your short time here?

[DogOnPorch]

i agree with a lot of your points. however, i decided to take another poster's advice and put DoP on ignore after i noticed how many times he came back with some outrageous and unrelated comment to posts where his own comments were ripped apart.

example of this (paraphrasing):

DoP: hamas used its civilian population as human shield and so its their fault that civilians were killed in gaza.

me: an amnesty international investigation and report came to the conclusion that hamas did not use its civilians as human shield and in fact, numerous investigations came to the conclusion that the IDF used gaza civilians, including children as human shield.

DoP: the grand mufti was basically a nazi general and have you ever wondered why both hamas and hezbollah do the nazi salut?

this type of exchange was repeated numerous times.

however, it's still fun to see these tireless zionist propagandists getting slapped around by truth and facts.

Nice to know I'm well-loved by the board's two biggest Jew-baiters.

Fact is, Palestinian Arab supporters don't like to be reminded of the Mufti in public. Embarassing. Here's the English text of his infamous letter sealing the fate of some 400,000...perhaps as high as 750,000 according to some sources...Jews to the Death Camp @ Auschwitz Birkenau.

Mufti Asks Hungary to Send Jews to Poland

[The Nation appended their own note to this document: "As a Sequel to This Request 400,000 Jews Were Subsequently Killed."]

Rome

June 28, 1943

His Excellency

The Minister of Foreign Affairs for Hungary

Your Excellency:

You no doubt know of the struggle between the Arabs and Jews of Palestine, what it has been and what it is, a long and bloody fight, brought about by the desire of the Jews to create a national home, a Jewish State in the Near East, with the help and protection of England and the United States. In fact, behind it lies the hope which the Jews have never relinquished, namely, the domination of the whole world through this Important, strategic center, Palestine. In effect their program has, among other purposes, always aimed at the encouragement of Jewish migration to Palestine and the other countries of the Near East. However, the war, as well as the understanding which the members of the Three-Power Pact have of the responsibility of the Jews for its outbreak and finally their evil intentions towards these countries which protected them until now - all these are reasons for placing them under such vigilant control as will definitely stop their emigration to Palestine or elsewhere.

Lately I have been informed of the uninterrupted efforts made by the English and the Jews to obtain permission for the Jews living in your country to leave for Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey. I have also learned that these negotiations were successful since some of the Jews of Hungary have had the satisfaction of emigrating to Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey and that a group of these Jews arrived In Palestine towards the end of last March. The Jewish Agency, which supervises the execution of the Jewish program, has published a bulletin which contains important information on the current negotiations between the English Government and the governments of other interested states to send the Jews of Balkan countries to Palestine. The Jewish Agency quoted, among other things, its receipt of a sufficient number of immigration certificates for 900 Jewish children to be transported from Hungary, accompanied by 100 adults.

To authorize these Jews to leave your country under the above circumstances and in this way, would by no means solve the Jewish problem and would certainly not protect your country against their evil influence - far from it! - for this escape would make it possible for them to communicate and combine freely with their racial brethren in enemy countries in order to strengthen their position and to exert a more dangerous influence on the outcome of the war, especially since, as a consequence of their long stay in your country they are necessarily in a position to know many of your secrets and also about your war effort. All this comes on top of the terrible damage done to the friendly Arab nation which has taken its place at your side in this war and which cherishes for your country the most sincere feelings and the very best wishes.

This is the reason why I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, in order thereby to protect oneself from their menace and avoid the consequent damages

Yours, etc.

Source: The Arab Higher Committee. Its Origins, Personnel and Purposes. Documentary Record Submitted to the United Nations, May 1947, by the Nation Associates. Hungary acceded to the Mufti's request and sent Hungarian Jews to the death camps ("where they would find themselves under active control") in Poland. The Nation Associates added their own note stating that as a result of this request, 400,000 Jews were killed.

[Letter from Mufti ends here]

"Recently", this photo album was recoved...it shows some of the Hungarian Jews being offloaded @ Auschwitz.

[Cato]

Fact is, Palestinian Arab supporters don't like to be reminded of the Mufti in public. Embarassing

Fact is, using the Mufti in the Israel-Palestinian conflict issue is red herring. What the Mufti did was not different from what all others did, only that he was on the losing side. He wanted to prevent more Jews immigrating in Palestine and he did not care the least, what else they should or can do.

Here's the English text of his infamous letter sealing the fate of some 400,000...perhaps as high as 750,000 according to some sources...Jews to the Death Camp @ Auschwitz Birkenau

The numbers are greatly inflated as usual, but that is really secondary in this issue.

Anyway, here is something to the thema, only very shortly; I guess you have never heard of this.

From 1933 to 1941 Germany actively supported the emigration of Jews from Germany to Palestine. The support was very relevant: the Jews could purchase the 1000 Pounds required to the immigration, they could take their belonging, even machines etc. with them, despite other laws making this impossible due to Germany's devise shortage. This is, what bugged the Mufti.

Make a search for Haavara, but be careful: Jewish organizations are at least as much embarassed about that as the Palestinians about the Mufti.

[M.Dancer]

Fact is, using the Mufti in the Israel-Palestinian conflict issue is red herring. What the Mufti did was not different from what all others did, only that he was on the losing side. He wanted to prevent more Jews immigrating in Palestine and he did not care the least, what else they should or can do.

So he sent his men to the Balkans and killed the jews there?

[DogOnPorch]

Fact is, using the Mufti in the Israel-Palestinian conflict issue is red herring. What the Mufti did was not different from what all others did, only that he was on the losing side. He wanted to prevent more Jews immigrating in Palestine and he did not care the least, what else they should or can do.

He made a conscious choice to team-up with Himmler and Eichmann.

The numbers are greatly inflated as usual, but that is really secondary in this issue.

Are they now? Some source say as low as 400,000 while others claim as high as 750,000. Which one is right? Or are they BOTH wrong?

Anyway, here is something to the thema, only very shortly; I guess you have never heard of this.

Eh?

From 1933 to 1941 Germany actively supported the emigration of Jews from Germany to Palestine. The support was very relevant: the Jews could purchase the 1000 Pounds required to the immigration, they could take their belonging, even machines etc. with them, despite other laws making this impossible due to Germany's devise shortage. This is, what bugged the Mufti.

Up to a point. But it was harder and harder to actually leave Germany. I think 50,000 or so made it out with the help of the Nazis. Keep in mind that while all this apparent 'good will' was going on, events like Crystal Night were happening.

Make a search for Haavara, but be careful: Jewish organizations are at least as much embarassed about that as the Palestinians about the Mufti.

Wouldn't have you tried to leave? Anyway possible? Or would you risk your family for your valuable pride?

[Cato]

So he sent his men to the Balkans and killed the jews there?

It is a sad fact of life, that Jews/Zionists (I am not able to distinguish for lack of reliable information) are trying to turn everything into some advantage in the Shoahbusiness, at least symbolically (this has nothing to do with the Holocaust but with business). Having to lie to achieve that was never an obstacle, as you are repeatedly demonstrating it.

1. The Mufti's role in Jews' killing by Germans had been nil. This has been confirmed in the Echmann trial (in Israel!).

2. The Mufti did not send "his men" anywhere, for there were none. He was recruiting Muslim volunteers in the Balkans, for the German armed forces; they took part for example in anti-partisan actions.

However, it is true, that the Mufti made a proclamation in Radio Berlin to the Arams to kill the Jews wherever they find them.

Notwithstanding any details, this subject does not give the very least justification for Jewes actions against Palestinians.

[DogOnPorch]

Quite a few Arabs managed to make it to Yugoslavia to join one of the Mufti's various units. The majority were Bosnian Muslims, though. The officers were mostly Germans.

Edited August 4, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Cato]

He made a conscious choice to team-up with Himmler and Eichmann

Nonsense, but irrelevant anyway.

Up to a point. But it was harder and harder to actually leave Germany. I think 50,000 or so made it out with the help of the Nazis

1. Up to 1941.

2. The hardship was not due to Germany.

3. Probably between 200,000 and 300,000. Jews like to reduce this number, for it is detrimental to the "six million" figure.

Keep in mind that while all this apparent 'good will' was going on, events like Crystal Night were happening

1. There was no goodwill there; it was a practical way of getting rid of the Jews.

2. The Kristallnacht was predated by Jewish "declarations of war" on Germany, which caused huge damage to Germany's economy.

However, all that is irrelevant regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, don't you agree? (And I will not defend Nazi Germany's actions against Jews, for that was the gravest of Hitler's grave errors.)

Wouldn't have you tried to leave? Anyway possible? Or would you risk your family for your valuable pride?

You just confirmed that you know nothing of this particular subject. Read up on it, it is really enlightening.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Cato

[M.Dancer]

2. The Kristallnacht was predated by Jewish "declarations of war" on Germany, which caused huge damage to Germany's economy.

Are you by any chance a relative of Lictor?

Probably between 200,000 and 300,000. Jews like to reduce this number, for it is detrimental to the "six million" figure

Denial is a river in africa.

[M.Dancer]

1. The Mufti's role in Jews' killing by Germans had been nil. This has been confirmed in the Echmann trial (in Israel!).

Bosnia had almost all of the Jews there killed because of the Mufti's men.

[M.Dancer]

Notwithstanding any details, this subject does not give the very least justification for Jewes actions against Palestinians.

The justification relies on the right to self defense. No other justification is needed.

[DogOnPorch]

Nonsense, but irrelevant anyway.

Nonsense? Himmler, Eichmann and the Mufti were all pals. Himmler gave him a hunting lodge in Oybin (Saxony) which you can still visit.

1. Up to 1941.

2. The hardship was not due to Germany.

3. Probably between 200,000 and 300,000. Jews like to reduce this number, for it is detrimental to the "six million" figure.

Right...just so we're on the same page, here...how many perished in the Holocaust according to your sources?

1. There was no goodwill there; it was a practical way of getting rid of the Jews.

2. The Kristallnacht was predated by Jewish "declarations of war" on Germany, which caused huge damage to Germany's economy.

Declarations of war on Germany...I see. It was all the damn Jews fault. Well, that certainly gave the Nazis a mandate to mass murder. I hear Poland attacked first, too.

However, all that is irrelevant regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, don't you agree? (And I will not defend Nazi Germany's actions against Jews, for that was the gravest of Hitler's grave errors.)

Of course you won't...

You just confirmed that you know nothing of this particular subject. Read up on it, it is really enlightening.

My statement stands. Gave the Nazis all the Jews' possessions while selling them their crap exports as an exchange. Very fair indeed if you're in the Mafia.

[Cato]

Bosnia had almost all of the Jews there killed because of the Mufti's men.

You should have given a testimony on Eichmann's trial.

The justification relies on the right to self defense. No other justification is needed.

You mean the right to self-defence in other people's land, while expelling them, robbing their properties, killing them?

Anyway, I am pretty much fed up with this primitive garbage you are presenting. Pls make some better effort.

[M.Dancer]

You mean the right to self-defence in other people's land, while expelling them, robbing their properties, killing them?

The thread is regarding Israeli actions in Gaza. No one has been expelled in Gaza or had their propert stolen by Israel. The right of self defense indeed can be on another nations soil, in my mind that's a better strategy than on your own soil.

Anyway, I am pretty much fed up with this primitive garbage you are presenting. Pls make some better effort.

Probably as a result of your attention defict.

[Cato]

Nonsense? Himmler, Eichmann and the Mufti were all pals. Himmler gave him a hunting lodge in Oybin (Saxony) which you can still visit.

Right...just so we're on the same page, here...how many perished in the Holocaust according to your sources?

Declarations of war on Germany...I see. It was all the damn Jews fault. Well, that certainly gave the Nazis a mandate to mass murder. I hear Poland attacked first, too.

Of course you won't...

Gave the Nazis all the Jews' possessions while selling them their crap exports as an exchange. Very fair indeed if you're in the Mafia.

You wrote before that the Mufti teamed up with Eichmann, now they became pals. The reality is, that Eichmann and the Mufti had met probably once. This is not an excuse for anything, but the unrelented inventing of stories has nothing to do with history or with political discussion.

Or this crap of yours, Gave the Nazis all the Jews' possessions while selling them their crap exports as an exchange. Though I don't understand, what this is supposed to mean (whose crap exports, what is this at all?), but this rubbish has nothing to do with the emigration program Haavara: Jews could sell their property in Germany and take the money with them and/or take their household, equipment with them.

Anyway, I was prepared to discuss issues but not character deficiency, which is radiating from your posts. Unfortunately this appears to be a common trait of the apologists of Zionist crimes: no lie is too crude if it can be used to deflect from the real subject.

[M.Dancer]

Jews could sell their property in Germany and take the money with them and/or take their household, equipment with them.

Not 'could '....

The Haavara Agreement was an agreement made between the Jewish Agency (an official executive agency in then Palestine) and the Nazi regime of Germany concluded on 25 August 1933. The agreement was designed to help facilitate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine. While it helped Jews emigrate, it forced them to give up most of their possessions to Germany before departing. Those assets could later be obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods. Approximately 50,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine under this agreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

So basically you liquidated your assets under terms established by the Nazis and then later with the money they paid which is held in trust, you would convert the balance into german crap.

Sorry to hear the zionist apologists got the better of you. It often happens that way.

[DogOnPorch]

Ok...so we got another National Socialist infesting the board...is there some sort of spray we could use?

[M.Dancer]

Ok...so we got another National Socialist infesting the board...is there some sort of spray we could use?

Zyklon B?

[DogOnPorch]

The ironing would be delicious.

---Bart Simpson

[Army Guy]

It is a sad fact of life, that Jews/Zionists (I am not able to distinguish for lack of reliable information) are trying to turn everything into some advantage in the Shoahbusiness, at least symbolically (this has nothing to do with the Holocaust but with business). Having to lie to achieve that was never an obstacle, as you are repeatedly demonstrating it.

1. The Mufti's role in Jews' killing by Germans had been nil. This has been confirmed in the Echmann trial (in Israel!).

You wrote before that the Mufti teamed up with Eichmann, now they became pals. The reality is, that Eichmann and the Mufti had met probably once. This is not an excuse for anything, but the unrelented inventing of stories has nothing to do with history or with political discussion.

And while it does not answer the questions asked i think it does clear up a few pionts made in regards to the Mufti's actions and involvement, not only with the Eichmann affilation but also the role he played in Palestine and the early history...

This is our document No. 281. Mr. Steiner first tells us that Wisliceny described his talks with Eichmann, why Palestine cannot be considered as the destination for emigration: "When I asked him why, he laughed and asked whether I had never heard of the Grand Mufti Husseini. He explained that the Mufti has very close contact and cooperation with Eichmann, and therefore Germany cannot agree to Palestine being the final destination, as this would be a blow to Germany's prestige in the Mufti's eyes."

Then he goes on: "At this further conversation Wisliceny gave me more details about the cooperation between Eichmann and the Mufti. The Mufti is a sworn enemy of the Jews and has always fought for the idea of annihilating the Jews. He sticks to this idea always, also in his talks with Eichmann" - and here we have one of the points about which Wisliceny has reservations - "who, as you know, is a German who was born in Palestine. The Mufti is one of the originators of the systematic destruction of European Jewry by the Germans, and he has become a permanent colleague, partner and adviser to Eichmann and Himmler in the implementation of this programme."

Here Wisliceny adds: "I have read these descriptions and find them correct, except for this, that Eichmann was born in Palestine, and that the Mufti was a permanent partner of Himmler's; this is not what I said."

trail transcrips

more trail transcrips.

[jbg]

It is a sad fact of life, that Jews/Zionists (I am not able to distinguish for lack of reliable information) are trying to turn everything into some advantage in the Shoahbusiness, at least symbolically (this has nothing to do with the Holocaust but with business). Having to lie to achieve that was never an obstacle, as you are repeatedly demonstrating it.

I have no particular love for hate laws, or playing the victim. Your pun, however, adds nothing to the debate and shows you have a very sick, warped mind. "Shoahbusiness" is a play on the Hebrew word "Shoah" for Holocaust.

Do you think there is something funny about the Holocaust?

2. The Mufti did not send "his men" anywhere, for there were none. He was recruiting Muslim volunteers in the Balkans, for the German armed forces; they took part for example in anti-partisan actions.

I.e. the Nazi's side of the war?

Notwithstanding any details, this subject does not give the very least justification for Jewes actions against Palestinians.

But suicide bombings and missile attacks do. Edited August 7, 2009 by jbg

[jbg]

1. There was no goodwill there; it was a practical way of getting rid of the Jews.

2. The Kristallnacht was predated by Jewish "declarations of war" on Germany, which caused huge damage to Germany's economy.

I've said this before in response to your posts but it bears repetition: To quote Joseph N. Welch, "(h)ave you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" (link)

[jbg]

Ok...so we got another National Socialist infesting the board...is there some sort of spray we could use?

We have a National Socialist, and a Chinese fortune cookie writer who posts very prolifically.