Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[Bonam]

Yes, because one book clearly is the be all and end all of an entire religion and the cultures of the peoples in all lands associated with that religion. Kind of like the Bible can explain the actions of all peoples from all nations around the world where Christians are the majority, so too can the Qur'an explain the actions of all people from Muslims nations around the world. Oh wait...

In case the sarcasm escapes you, the point is that there is a lot more to a culture and how people of that culture act than just one book. Even if the Qur'an is as peaceful as you claim, it is irrelevant in the face of real world actions.

[ironstone]

All too familiar? How many have there been in recent years? I count one, plus a possible other onelast month.

"As many as 5000 women and girls have lost their lives-most at the hands of family members-in so called honour killings around the world each year,according to the United Nations.

Up to a dozen have died for the same reason in Canada in the last decade,and it's happening more often,says Amin Muhammad,a psychiatrist who studies honour killings at Memorial University in Newfoundland."

This from today's edition of the Ottawa Citizen,an article on page 3 by Shannon Proudfoot.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Honour+k...2636/story.html

Just one you say?

[benny]

Even if the Qur'an is as peaceful as you claim, it is irrelevant in the face of real world actions.

The Qur'an asks for infidels to be killed but Christians, who believe Jesus is God, are wrongly accused by Muslims to be such infidels.

[Argus]

Exactly. It's not a Muslim thing, nor is it a ME thing. But don't kid yourself that women in western societies suffer less violence. It's different, less sensationalized, perhaps, but we definitely do suffer violence.

Everyone suffers violence. Women commit violence as well as suffer it. As do men. To suggest we are not appreciably better than Muslim and ME societies in how we treat women, the respect and opportunities afforded them, and our universal condemnation of anyone committing violence against them is ludicrous and does the cause of female equality a huge disservice.

Women don't suffer less violence here? That is saying to the last few decades of feminists and advocates for womens equality that they have accomplished absolutely NOTHING in the last half century, and that women are no better off here than in the most backward, misogynistic societies on Earth.

[Argus]

Sure we're freest and safest... but I still wouldn't wander around at night by myself.

You think I do?

[Bonam]

You think I do?

You wouldn't? I mean there's a few areas to stay out of (i.e. Vancouver downtown eastside), but by and large Canada is safe for both men and women, be it day or night...

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yes, because one book clearly is the be all and end all of an entire religion and the cultures of the peoples in all lands associated with that religion. Kind of like the Bible can explain the actions of all peoples from all nations around the world where Christians are the majority, so too can the Qur'an explain the actions of all people from Muslims nations around the world. Oh wait...

In case the sarcasm escapes you, the point is that there is a lot more to a culture and how people of that culture act than just one book. Even if the Qur'an is as peaceful as you claim, it is irrelevant in the face of real world actions.

We are talking about muslims who's holy book is the Qur'an so yes it should be held to all muslims unfortunatly because so few muslims can read it's left up to those who can read to interpret it and they usually twist it for there own goals which is why "infidel" has come to include christians even though according to islamic divine law (the law all muslims are supposed to go by) they aren't. In most lands were Islam is the majority religion, it is also the only religion.

Edited July 24, 2009 by TrueMetis

[capricorn]

If you can find anything about the DLs... yes, I'd like to see that too. Thanks.

"None of the women had a driver's licence."

http://www.canada.com/Family+members+charg...4237/story.html

[benny]

Everyone suffers violence. Women commit violence as well as suffer it. As do men. To suggest we are not appreciably better than Muslim and ME societies in how we treat women, the respect and opportunities afforded them, and our universal condemnation of anyone committing violence against them is ludicrous and does the cause of female equality a huge disservice.

Women don't suffer less violence here? That is saying to the last few decades of feminists and advocates for womens equality that they have accomplished absolutely NOTHING in the last half century, and that women are no better off here than in the most backward, misogynistic societies on Earth.

If Christian cultures show less violence than Muslim cultures, it is only because Christ was more violent (through Paul) than Mohamed.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

[Guest TrueMetis]

If Christian cultures show less violence than Muslim cultures, it is only because Christ was more violent (through Paul) than Mohamed.

I find it odd that "Christian" cultures are less violent then Muslim cultures. There are many time in the bible were it says violence is ok, like the passage were it says disobedient children should be stoned to death. wereas the Qur'an has very few example were violence is ok.

Edited July 24, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Argus]

I suppose the point is you would think ill of them regardless of the facts.

Again, you seem to have no difficulty making statements based entirely on your own prejudices and assumptions.

Cyclical logic is not logic at all. This is a not a matter of "The Left" denying you vindication. This is a matter of you being unable to support your claims in a tangible way that does not include the phrase "My friends and I think...".

Because the Left has managed to forbid the proper scientific collection of statistics which I would otherwise use. On the other hand, you have not a shred of valid credible evidence on which to disagree with my assertion.

Here in lies the issue with your entire argument. If it is so very obvious and observable why are you not able to produce, articles, facts, papers written by others to support your facts?

There are few ways of collecting scientifically valid information on the race of criminals which do not involve having the race recorded by the police, courts or prisons. If that is not done just how do you imagine someone would be able to find statistical data on which to base any of these "papers"?

Because you have discussed your preconceptions with others who happen to share them does not make them any more accurate.

And because you have simply decided, sans evidence, that what we are operating on preconceptions does not make it so.

You could provide links to the articles that lead you to these conclusions.

The articles I've read over the past thirty years? I suspect that would be a tad difficult.

Surely something recently has brought this to your mind, one specific article that caught your eye.

I've already named a couple of them in this thread, from Macleans and the Ottawa Citizen.

In other words you didn't even look at the information. Further to that end at least Wikipedia has more sources and citations then "My friends and I think" to back them up. Heretofore that is the only evidence you have provided for us.

If I hadn't looked at your cite from Wikipedia how do you imagine I could have dismissed it as simply 37 cases of the more notorious murders as inputted by a variety of people whose eyes were caught by this or that case? You do realize, don't you, that I could simply look up a few murders as commited by immigrants/minorities, and input them there myself to join your 37 if I cared enough to do so?

Edited July 24, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

You wouldn't? I mean there's a few areas to stay out of (i.e. Vancouver downtown eastside), but by and large Canada is safe for both men and women, be it day or night...

No, I can't say I'm trembling in fear, but I would be wary of walking around alone at night almost anywhere in this city.

[benny]

I find it odd that "Christian" cultures are less violent then Muslim cultures. There are many time in the bible were it says violence is ok, like the passage were it says disobedient children should be stoned to death. wereas the Qur'an has very few example were violence is ok.

It is not odd because the Bible is a much longer and difficult reading than the Qur'an. One develops more intelligent ways to live when he is forced to read books like the Bible.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

[capricorn]

"As many as 5000 women and girls have lost their lives-most at the hands of family members-in so called honour killings around the world each year,according to the United Nations.

Up to a dozen have died for the same reason in Canada in the last decade,and it's happening more often,says Amin Muhammad,a psychiatrist who studies honour killings at Memorial University in Newfoundland."

This from today's edition of the Ottawa Citizen,an article on page 3 by Shannon Proudfoot.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Honour+k...2636/story.html

Just one you say?

Coincidentally, Amin Muhammad is preparing a paper on honour killings for the Justice Department. It's interesting that he doesn't think religion is at the base of those killings.

Amin Muhammad, a Memorial University expert who is preparing a paper on the topic for the federal Justice Department, says honour killing is not religiously motivated.

"Nothing in the Muslim religion would justify this. Nothing in any religion would justify this," he said. "It's based on personal agendas, personal egos, personal mindsets."

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/s...html?id=1822941

It seems a foregone conclusion that he will advise Justice that murders of Muslim women by family members is just plain murder. Actually, that is a policy position I could accept, especially if it prevented the following coming to Canada.

MUSLIM crime victims could gain the right to have their cases overseen by police from their own religion, it emerged last night.

Police in London already give victims the right to ask for a Sikh officer to be involved in an investigation but the scheme could be introduced for other religions elsewhere.

Chief Supt Joanna Young, from the Met’s Criminal Justice Policy Unit, said: “If it’s a success, I would encourage the other (police) associations to do likewise.”

The project is intended to help investigate “honour” killings and forced marriages but Metropolitan Police Federation chairman Peter Smyth said: “We’re stretched thin enough already. Are Sikh officers going to have their rotas changed so there’s always one on duty?

“It’s political correctness gone mad. We talking about the creation of a separate force within a force.”

But Palbinder Singh, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association, said: “I don’t believe a white officer is ever going to be fully conversant with a Sikh.”

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115757...-get-own-police

[Guest TrueMetis]

It is not odd because the Bible is a much longer and difficult reading than the Qur'an. One develops more intelligent ways to live when he is forced to read books like the Bible.

That and reading the entire bible is the surest way to atheism.

Of course most muslims can't read at all so they don't read their holy book ever.

[Bonam]

No, I can't say I'm trembling in fear, but I would be wary of walking around alone at night almost anywhere in this city.

Which city?

[lily]

Yes, because one book clearly is the be all and end all of an entire religion and the cultures of the peoples in all lands associated with that religion. Kind of like the Bible can explain the actions of all peoples from all nations around the world where Christians are the majority, so too can the Qur'an explain the actions of all people from Muslims nations around the world. Oh wait...

In case the sarcasm escapes you, the point is that there is a lot more to a culture and how people of that culture act than just one book. Even if the Qur'an is as peaceful as you claim, it is irrelevant in the face of real world actions.

People blame "Islam" for the action of the radicals. The point here is that there's nothing in Islam or the Koran to validate their actions. Like certain Christian fundamentalist groups as well as extremists from other religions, they're using their own twisted version of the religion to justify their actions.

Everyone suffers violence. Women commit violence as well as suffer it. As do men. To suggest we are not appreciably better than Muslim and ME societies in how we treat women, the respect and opportunities afforded them, and our universal condemnation of anyone committing violence against them is ludicrous and does the cause of female equality a huge disservice.

Women don't suffer less violence here? That is saying to the last few decades of feminists and advocates for womens equality that they have accomplished absolutely NOTHING in the last half century, and that women are no better off here than in the most backward, misogynistic societies on Earth.

We are better in the way we treat women, sure, but we're still not equal, and the condemnation is certainly not universal. Feminism isn't done, not by any means.

You think I do?

Let's just say we have different fears then.

"None of the women had a driver's licence."

http://www.canada.com/Family+members+charg...4237/story.html

Thank you. That does change things.

[benny]

That and reading the entire bible is the surest way to atheism.

Stupidity is the surest way to atheism.

[Bonam]

People blame "Islam" for the action of the radicals. The point here is that there's nothing in Islam or the Koran to validate their actions. Like certain Christian fundamentalist groups as well as extremists from other religions, they're using their own twisted version of the religion to justify their actions.

It doesn't matter what is to blame... whether it's Islam, or other cultural aspects of people from those parts of the world, or traditions, or racial tendencies, or the experience of being brought up in a patriarchal society, or whatever else. What is important is that Canada is safeguarded from the importation of violent individuals, whatever may be their origins and causes.

We are better in the way we treat women, sure, but we're still not equal, and the condemnation is certainly not universal. Feminism isn't done, not by any means.

That is clearly not the subject of this thread.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Stupidity is the surest way to atheism.

So the vast majority of scientists are stupid?

[benny]

What is important is that Canada is safeguarded from the importation of violent individuals, whatever may be their origins and causes.

Clearly, Canada is not safeguarded of sharing world's problems and it is important it stays like this until these problems receives a solution.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

[lily]

It doesn't matter what is to blame... whether it's Islam, or other cultural aspects of people from those parts of the world, or traditions, or racial tendencies, or the experience of being brought up in a patriarchal society, or whatever else. What is important is that Canada is safeguarded from the importation of violent individuals, whatever may be their origins and causes.

Right. So let's not jump in to blame the Muslims and demand that we not allow any of "them" into Canada.

That is clearly not the subject of this thread.

Just responding to what's thrown at me.

[ironstone]

Whether or not honour killings are a part of the Muslim way of life is of course debatable.I think the root of the problem is in the attitude of men towards women.Too many men in this world seem to regard women as property and not as human beings.That being said,I pose this question:On the whole,are women equal to,and do they have the same rights as men in the Muslim world?Voting rights,driving privileges,custody disputes and the like?Can you honestly say the women have equality to Muslim men in all respects?

[benny]

Right. So let's not jump in to blame the Muslims and demand that we not allow any of "them" into Canada.

A rational person who is tempted to jump in to blaming the Muslims would welcome Muslims into Canada to verify and explore deeper his primary reaction.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

[CANADIEN]

gag.

Here's the thing. You can hold a nice, fancy party with silk tableclothes and everyone wearing tuxedos and gowns and sipping the finest champaign from crystal glasses. But if you invite a bunch of grass-skirt wearing savages you're going to have to risk having them occasionally take a dump on the marble floor and wipe their asses with your silk tableclothes.

Now why you insist on bringing grass-skirt wearing savages into the party is beyond me.

What is beyond me is how come an idiot like you is still at the party.