Canuck selling out Canada's Health Care on Fox News

[lily]

Of course not, since health care is not a right at all. My family is "better off" in many aspects because of economic resources and circumstances of my own making for the most part, and if we choose to get the best boob jobs, then we will do so.

There but for the grace of God and all that.

Besides, this isn't about boob jobs.

[lily]

Canadians have had a larger percentage of home ownership for a while.

I know there have been several books on taxes and home ownership. I have put up a link for just one of those books.

Yes, I saw that. We were posting at the same time. Thanks.

I did notice that Bush/Cheney fell silent on that tangent. I'm all shocked and stuff.

[M.Dancer]

Point? Not really sure. Anecdotal evidence is interesting, but doesn't give an overall picture.

It does when because of personal experiance you know how many beds they have for a metropolis of over 3.5 million...

BTW...the OP is anecdotal experiance...

[bush_cheney2004]

There but for the grace of God and all that.

I don't believe in your "God" either.

Besides, this isn't about boob jobs.

Yes it is...it is about free choices..choices for medical professionals and consumers. I know people who won't even consider a semi-private hospital room. If you prefer government managed care, enjoy, but please don't force it on others who have more options.

[Bonam]

I don't really know what the huge issue is anyway consider that we have a substantial amount of private health care offered here in Canada. A few examples from just here in Vancouver include False Creek Surgical Centre, which even offers emergency care, Copeman Health, and a variety of others.

The trend in BC is to continue to offer more and more health services privately. This continued growth of private healthcare has the full support of our Health Minister, Kevin Falcon.

The rest of Canada will follow suit, sooner or later. The European dual public/private healthcare systems have proved themselves to offer the best results, both in providing everyone with basic service and in allowing those who have the means to pay for the very best possible care. This is what we're gonna have here in Canada as well, eventually, and it is likely where the US is headed also.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, I saw that. We were posting at the same time. Thanks.

I did notice that Bush/Cheney fell silent on that tangent. I'm all shocked and stuff.

Home ownership should be a right.....housing and food should be underwritten by government for equitable treatment of all comrades.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The rest of Canada will follow suit, sooner or later. The European dual public/private healthcare systems have proved themselves to offer the best results, both in providing everyone with basic service and in allowing those who have the means to pay for the very best possible care. This is what we're gonna have here in Canada as well, eventually, and it is likely where the US is headed also.

That's right....the US already has public single payer systems that dwarf anything in Canada....at lower cost. Canada's system is the most expensive and least effective for universal access amongst OECD nations @ about 10.5% of GDP.

Overflow patients are sent to the "states" or seek services abroad on their own dime.

Edited July 21, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[M.Dancer]

One of the oddest quirks about canadian society is the concept of universalism. It boggles the mind that say, the top 1% deserve the same tax funded social benifits as the bottom 1%.

At very least healthcare should be means tested.

[nicky10013]

Of course not, since health care is not a right at all. My family is "better off" in many aspects because of economic resources and circumstances of my own making for the most part, and if we choose to get the best boob jobs, then we will do so.

What? Are you serious? What will you sacrifice for the SubSaharan Africans?

Why should medical professionals and manufacturing forego such profit potential compared to farmers (food), or landlords (housing). I don't know why you hold health care in such high regard. Appropriating and controlling the services of others for the common good is communism, not just socialism.

I don't give a shit about equitable....nor am I trying to change the CHA. If you enjoy doing your patriotic duty by waiting in queue for removal of a benign or malignant brain tumor, be my guest. But you do not have the right to limit the choices of others if they have the means to do better.

PS. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness does not apply to Canada....PM Trudeau forgot to copy that in the Charter.

Health Care is a right. Being helathy enables people to actively participate in the economy or in politics; to have their voice heard. Health Care is something that transcends human economic activity. In the end, farmers making money off of crops and housing developers making money off of houses isn't the same thing as insurance companies making money when people die. And though of course you're family may not be better, the fact that you have more money, like you said, makes you better off. In the end, if a person with less money who can't afford health insurance isn't any worse of a person than you, and say you both come down with cancer at the same time, why should he have a greater chance of dying? Because you have more money? In essence, you're for the government limiting the choice of 45 million Americans who can't get insurance. How is that any better than the government limiting your choices. In the end, you get health insurance. Under the free market, they do not. Also, you're talking as though the government actually limits your options. Here you have the choice to choose your GP or which hospital to go to, or what specialist you'd like to see. The system works in the exact same way as it does in the states, with the exception that instead of the bill going to a private insurer, it goes to the government. Another fallacy you've probably eaten up from these phony anti-Canadian health care ads you see in the states.

What will I sacrafice for the sub-saharan Africans? There's not alot I as a person can do. In the end, I would imagine that providing them with opportunities to grow their economy through free trade and more open markets would be the first step. A second step would be alotting more refugees access to Canada. The demographic shift is going to be huge in upcoming years and immigration is one way to help cushion the effects.

In the Charter it actually reads life, liberty and security of the person.

Also, Communism is when the ENTIRE system is under control, not just a sector like health care. If you hate "communism" so much, why don't you contract out military, police, or fire services to private companies? If anything, they save lives like health care does. So what makes them different?

Edited July 21, 2009 by nicky10013

[lily]

It does when because of personal experiance you know how many beds they have for a metropolis of over 3.5 million...

BTW...the OP is anecdotal experiance...

Yes, I know it is. THat's why I odn't really take it too seriously. I find it a little interesting that you feel your anecdote trumps mine though.

I don't believe in your "God" either.

I don't care.

Yes it is...it is about free choices..choices for medical professionals and consumers. I know people who won't even consider a semi-private hospital room. If you prefer government managed care, enjoy, but please don't force it on others who have more options.

Cosmetic boob jobs aren't covered under UHC. Nice try.

One of the oddest quirks about canadian society is the concept of universalism. It boggles the mind that say, the top 1% deserve the same tax funded social benifits as the bottom 1%.

At very least healthcare should be means tested.

Oh right. So people who have more money are more deserving of better health care.

I'm sure all the disadvantaged kids will appreciate that kind of thinking.

[bush_cheney2004]

Health Care is a right. Being helathy enables people to actively participate in the economy or in politics; to have their voice heard. Health Care is something that transcends human economic activity. In the end, farmers making money off of crops and housing developers making money off of houses isn't the same thing as insurance companies making money when people die.

You have created a right where none exists...not in your Constitution or Charter. You are making it up as you go along.

You do not have a right to a triple organ transplant.

And though of course you're family may not be better, the fact that you have more money, like you said, makes you better off. In the end, if a person with less money who can't afford health insurance isn't any worse of a person than you, and say you both come down with cancer at the same time, why should he have a greater chance of dying? Because you have more money?

Indirectly...yes. I can exchange my money for the services of another. If I am born with a genetic disorder, is that less fair than those who are not so born?

In essence, you're for the government limiting the choice of 45 million Americans who can't get insurance. How is that any better than the government limiting your choices. In the end, you get health insurance. Under the free market, they do not.

Get a job.

Also, you're talking as though the government actually limits your options. Here you have the choice to choose your GP or which hospital to go to, or what specialist you'd like to see. The system works in the exact same way as it does in the states, with the exception that instead of the bill going to a private insurer, it goes to the government. Another fallacy you've probably eaten up from these phony anti-Canadian health care ads you see in the states.

I don't give a crap about which doctor I see...in the "states". We know how it works in Canada, especially the wait queues and rationing....no thanks.

What will I sacrafice for the sub-saharan Africans? There's not alot I as a person can do. In the end, I would imagine that providing them with opportunities to grow their economy through free trade and more open markets would be the first step. A second step would be alotting more refugees access to Canada. The demographic shift is going to be huge in upcoming years and immigration is one way to help cushion the effects.

But you said that ALL human beings had a right to health care? How can you be so selfish?

In the Charter it actually reads life, liberty and security of the person.

They had to change some of the words or we would know where it was copied from (US Declaration of Independence).

Also, Communism is when the ENTIRE system is under control, not just a sector like health care. If you hate "communism" so much, why don't you contract out military, police, or fire services to private companies? If anything, they save lives like health care does. So what makes them different?

We do....see Blackwater.

[bush_cheney2004]

Cosmetic boob jobs aren't covered under UHC. Nice try.

But reconstructive boob jobs are...and I want the best....nothing worse than a sagging, asymmetric government funded boob job.

Oh right. So people who have more money are more deserving of better health care.

It has nothing to do with "deserving"....these are services....just like getting your oil changed. A bad brake job can be deadly.

[lily]

But reconstructive boob jobs are...and I want the best....nothing worse than a sagging, asymmetric government funded boob job.

I can think of worse things.

It has nothing to do with "deserving"....these are services....just like getting your oil changed. A bad brake job can be deadly.

I'm sure you have a point, but it keeps getting lost in all the trolling.

[bush_cheney2004]

I can think of worse things.

Good, then you concede the point.

I'm sure you have a point, but it keeps getting lost in all the trolling.

What else do you want the government to do for you? Hair salon services? Dental services? How about driveway snow shoveling?

[Guest TrueMetis]

Keep the UHC and ad a private sector with private insurance people who are willing to pay for it will pay for it people who can't won't. This way waiting times will be reduced and we may even end up with better healthcare than france since, I believe, they don't pay all that much more than we do for healthcare.

[bush_cheney2004]

Keep the UHC and ad a private sector with private insurance people who are willing to pay for it will pay for it people who can't won't. This way waiting times will be reduced and we may even end up with better healthcare than france since, I believe, they don't pay all that much more than we do for healthcare.

Fair enough....let the deadbeats sweat things out in medical steerage. I want to go First Class....like Michael Jackson!

[August1991]

Each to their own. I wouldn't trade systems with you however. One thing, you would never be denied treatment in Canada for a pre-existing condition, even if you just immigrated from the US last week.

But our system is unsustainable, Wilber, at least with the service levels now being offerred.

Some things don't last forever. GM, for example, went bankrupt. Eaton's is no more.

Because it is cheaper than building the excess capacity in Canada. If the US did not provide that capacity Canada would build the necessary capacity itself.

That is the most absurd argument imaginable, Riverwind.

In effect, you are saying that Canada can piggy back/take advantage of the American system. What would Canada do if the US didn't exist?

This does not happen in the private insurance sector?

Yes, private insurance bureaucrats make health care decisions in the US just like government bureaucrats do in Canada. But there's a difference.

Firstly, this woman had the option of going to the US for treatment. If the US didn't exist, what would she do? In Canada, it is illegal to choose your own doctor and have private treatment.

In Canada, a patient faces alone the large provincial bureaucracy. There is little recourse to a decision. Most doctors must act as advocates on behalf of their patients.

In the US, there are a multitude of HMOs and health insurance companies. People pick and choose.

In the broader scheme of things, in the US, medical costs are connected to revenues. In Canada, there has been an increasing disconnect over the past 40 years between the money coming in to the system and the money going out to cover costs. Such a disconnect is the death knell for the sustainability of any system or bureaucracy.

Here's one example, and consider the implications. By making certain patients wait, a provincial health bureaucrat can impose tremendous costs on someone else - but those costs appear nowhere in any budget, in any statistic and have no impact on the bureaucrat. But will a patient simply wait?

When told to wait, some Canadians go to the US. But most patients in Canada start the hard bureaucratic slog of fighting with the system to get what they want. These costs show up nowhere and they lead to tremendous wastefulness.

-----

I am largely in favour of some kind of State involvement in health care and insurance. But it is utopic to believe that Canada's system is perfect and will last for another 1000 years. Canada's system is hardly a model.

Edited July 21, 2009 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

.....In Canada, it is illegal to choose your own doctor and have private treatment.

Seriously? As in criminal conduct to do so...for patient....provider...or both?

I can't imagine such a circumstance in a free nation.

[lily]

Good, then you concede the point.

Concede what point? You said there's nothing worse than a bad boob job. I said I could think of some things.. and you're crowing about having won some concession?

You're way too good at this debating thingy, because that's way beyond my comprehension.

What else do you want the government to do for you? Hair salon services? Dental services? How about driveway snow shoveling?

Dental services should be covered for dependant children. I could make an argument that preventive care be covered universally too, if you want to go there.

Fair enough....let the deadbeats sweat things out in medical steerage. I want to go First Class....like Michael Jackson!

He had a personal live-in doctor.

For what good it did him.

Firstly, this woman had the option of going to the US for treatment. If the US didn't exist, what would she do? In Canada, it is illegal to choose your own doctor and have private treatment.

That's not true.

[August1991]

Seriously? As in criminal conduct to do so...for patient....provider...or both?

I can't imagine such a circumstance in a free nation.

In theory, you can choose your own doctor but about 25% of people in Montreal do not have a family doctor because they can't find one. I know many, many people in this situation.

It is "illegal" to hire a family doctor with your own money. The Supreme Court recently upheld that policy but said that until the Quebec government could offer family doctors to everyone, it must allow private clinics.

Access to family doctors in Montreal is the worst of any city in the country, a survey by Statistics Canada has found.

At least 32 per cent of Montrealers don't have a regular doctor - more than triple the proportion in Toronto, according to the Canadian Community Health Survey.

Montreal Gazette 2006

This has become a genertal problem in Canada, particularly in urban areas.

Here's a randomly chosen personal story:

Finding a family doctor was another story. Because Nicholas has special needs, they were able to find one through the Montreal Children’s Hospital. “For the rest of us it wasn’t so easy,” says Pierre who, along with his wife and daughter, uses a private clinic.

Link

Note how the family played the bureaucracy because of their son's special needs. This is what people do.

Edited July 21, 2009 by August1991

[Bonam]

In Canada, it is illegal to choose your own doctor and have private treatment.

I really don't think that's the case, or how would all the private health care facilities keep operating?

[bush_cheney2004]

Concede what point? You said there's nothing worse than a bad boob job. I said I could think of some things.. and you're crowing about having won some concession?

I said there was nothing worse than a sagging, asymmetric government funded boob job for reconstructive surgery. That which is intolerable for me has nothing to do with your preferences.

You're way too good at this debating thingy, because that's way beyond my comprehension.

I'm just waiting for Oleg to come back.....welcome aboard.

Dental services should be covered for dependant children. I could make an argument that preventive care be covered universally too, if you want to go there.

My children are covered...ortho too....all the way through university. Do Canadians have bad teeth too?

He had a personal live-in doctor.

For what good it did him.

Hint: Nobody is getting out of here alive.

[lily]

I said there was nothing worse than a sagging, asymmetric government funded boob job for reconstructive surgery. That which is intolerable for me has nothing to do with your preferences.

Upon further reflection.....

Nope. you still don't have a point.

My children are covered...ortho too....all the way through university. Do Canadians have bad teeth too?

Nope. I would say that Canadians on average have better than average teeth.

Hint: Nobody is getting out of here alive.

Hint: next time you use an example of why private care is better, choose someone who didn't die prematurely of what may turn out to be doctor error.

[bush_cheney2004]

Shona Holmes was in trouble......Mayo Clinic details:

...By accessing Holmes' brain through her nose and sinuses, surgeons were able to remove the cyst without a single incision on her face. Holmes was discharged from the hospital four days later, cured of her disease.

....She's safely back in Canada now, reunited with family, friends and her golden retriever, Magnum. "It was a big deal leaving home for treatment, and not having that support with me in Arizona," she says. "But my husband was determined to get me help — and I found it at Mayo."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/patientstories/story-339.html

[August1991]

That's not true.

You can choose your own doctor, if you can find one. It is illegal to pay him or her.

I really don't think that's the case, or how would all the private health care facilities keep operating?

There are "private" clinics but they are paid through the provincial health care system. There are also private clinics, receiving payment from private individuals, for services (eg. cosmetic surgery) not offered by the provincial health systems.

In principle though, you cannot take out your cheque book at Queen's General Hospital and get through emergency immediately.

Here's the key Supreme Court decision.

Here's the Chaoulli thread on this forum

In practice, you can pay for private service - sort of. This is the ugly underbelly of Canada's health system that few (certainly not the NDP) want to talk about.

For example, families give "donations" to hospital "charitable foundations" and then receive specialized treatment. Jack Layton was treated at the private Shouldice Clinic in Toronto. (The Shouldice Clinic is privately operated but Layton was treated under OHIP.)

Edited July 21, 2009 by August1991