Progressive Conservatives

[Argus]

It's all a matter of how one balances those priorities, Argus. You might be tepidly pro-choice, but it's not particularly important to you. Not important enough to sacrifice any other priorities.

The point I'm making is that you do not, in a healthy democracy, dismiss wide scale opposition to a given issue by pretending that the people who believe differently than you are merely a few "extremists" who neither deserve to be listened to nor, to be represented.

[Molly]

The point I'm making is that you do not, in a healthy democracy, dismiss wide scale opposition to a given issue by pretending that the people who believe differently than you are merely a few "extremists" who neither deserve to be listened to nor, to be represented.

You do, however, VOTE for what YOU believe in, rather than for some surmised concensus. As an individual, I am well within my rights and reasonable conduct to dismiss as unfounded/misguided those views that seriously disagree with my own.

Why, if I believe someone is entirely wrong, from motivation through action, would I offer even patronizing support to their mission?

The only support I could offer (read: failure to oppose) would be based on not giving a rip about their issue, or the trade of something more valuable to me. ...hence my willing tradeoff of fiscal conservatism.

(Too late, though. The Conservatives ditched that all on their own.)

Edited July 18, 2009 by Molly

[ironstone]

I don't miss the "Progressives" one bit.How were they different from the Liberals?Joe Clark led that party for some time...and let's face it,he wasn't conservative at all.He would have been right at home in the Liberal Party.In some respects,even today's Conservative Party has some things in common with the rest of the leftist parties.All parties support big government and our open door immigration system to name a couple.The most hated Prime Minister in Canadian history is Brian Mulroney,but he was more conservative than most.Many years after he was gone from office,he ranks quite highly in terms of his biggest accomplishments,free trade and the GST,both of which have been beneficial for Canadians on the whole.Both policies which were eventually adopted by the Liberals.

Canada needs a real Conservative Party.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I don't miss the "Progressives" one bit.How were they different from the Liberals?Joe Clark led that party for some time...and let's face it,he wasn't conservative at all.He would have been right at home in the Liberal Party.In some respects,even today's Conservative Party has some things in common with the rest of the leftist parties.All parties support big government and our open door immigration system to name a couple.The most hated Prime Minister in Canadian history is Brian Mulroney,but he was more conservative than most.Many years after he was gone from office,he ranks quite highly in terms of his biggest accomplishments,free trade and the GST,both of which have been beneficial for Canadians on the whole.Both policies which were eventually adopted by the Liberals.

Canada needs a real Conservative Party.

Neither NAFTA nor the GST has benefited Canadians. In fact the opposite is true.

[punked]

I don't miss the "Progressives" one bit.How were they different from the Liberals?Joe Clark led that party for some time...and let's face it,he wasn't conservative at all.He would have been right at home in the Liberal Party.

Accept at the time he was the only one fighting for paying down the debt. Remember the Crazy spending the Liberals did back then. Instead they put in Mulorooney who spent like a drunken sailor while all Joe Clark could do was sit back and think about how right he was.

[madmax]

Of course, the converse is that 42% of Canadians believe abortions should be restricted in some way. But I guess they're just all far right extremists.

I am enjoying this... keep digging.

[madmax]

IBrian Mulroney,but he was more conservative than most.Many years after he was gone from office,he ranks quite highly in terms of his biggest accomplishments,free trade and the GST,both of which have been beneficial for Canadians on the whole.Both policies which were eventually adopted by the Liberals.

Canada needs a real Conservative Party.

Whoa dude... just because Mulroney implemented them, doesn't mean these ideas originated within the Conservative Party.

They did not. Infact, the Liberals were the Free Traders and the Tories were the protectionists. The Conservatives implemented the GST and yes the Liberals never turned their back on it, because they would have implemented it themselves.

Canada needs a "REAL" Conservative Party...

like what...

One that ELIMINATES the GST & TRASHES NAFTA...

Its tweedle dee and tweedle dum dum.

IT doesn't matter what name you attach.

What is funny, is that the only what that Conservatives use to say they are different is the bring out the Abortion CARD

Something they don't oppose, as any Family Coalition Rep.

I truly like Mulroneys accomplishments. He managed to sue the Canadian Government, and he managed to meet with Schrieber in Hotel rooms and get handed hundreds of thousands of dollars in Cash.

What a great guy...

Yes, Mulroney did go against over 60% of the country to create free trade agreements that have been successful in neutering the power of the Federal Government.

Sir John A did a hell of a lot more for this country then Mulroney ever did.

He created a nation out of a global trading economy.

[kimmy]

Nothing like coming out swinging...even when you're wrong I suppose. I will go even further. The Reform Party was on the extreme right in Canada, and many members could have ran for the CHP with no problem. Even further, Manning was a hypocrite who did one thing and said another, and let Stornoway stand as an example of that.

My apologies. Rather than "bullshit... bullshit... bullshit," I should have written "citation please? citation please? citation please?"

Manning denies the francophone people of this country as equal partners in Confederation. He had very little desire in doing anything to have Quebec stay. Unlike other federal parties, Reform didn't believe in the entire country, and much of that is seen in supporters today.

bullsh-- er, citation please?

Reform stood for effective representation of all regions of the country, and advocated senate reform as an antidote to the population disparities that make the interests of the less populous provinces unimportant to the federal government.

Reform stood for equal treatment of all provinces, and opposed the ongoing invocation of separatism as a justification for steps taken to buy Quebec's love.

Reform believed in further decentralizing what is already the most decentralized federation in the world. There is probably nowhere else where provinces or states have as much power, but of course, such talk appeased to the Alberta base.

Decentralization of power is an extreme right-wing position? Are the Quebecers also extreme right wingers? Because more autonomy has been Quebec's main interest for decades.

Reform wanted to sell of the most visible of federal assets that provide important services across the country. This included Canada Post and the CBC. They suggested introducing private insurance along with public insurance in healthcare. it would be fine if this was something that would make the system better....of course, their desire for change wasn't driven by this. It was an ideological opposition to government.

Believing there's a role for private healthcare providers and private health insurance is an extreme right-wing position?

That Barack fellow... he's an extreme rightwinger by this definition, yes?

They also supported tax cuts...and never explained how they would balance the budget or maintain necessary levels of government service with these cuts. That is beyond reasonable fiscal conservatism. Of course, the party has nothing to do with being reasonable.

I have heard that wide popular support for Reforms' fiscal conservatism was the driving factor in the Liberal push to balance the budget in the mid 1990s. I think that alone is sufficient evidence that this was not an "extreme right wing" position at all. The sheer number of times I read on this forum where some progressive prefaces their views by saying "I am a fiscal conservative, but..." makes me believe that there is nothing "extreme" about it at all.

Reform had a goal of 'lessening the dependence on government of aboriginal people.'

Gee, that sounds terrible!

Reform called for abortion to be made illegal, not regulated, which is really an argument about nothing anyway since very few of the abortions that would be regulated are even performed.

As already discussed, there is widespread division on the issue of abortion. Labelling either side of the issue as "extreme" is unwarranted.

The Reform was simply opposed to same sex anything. Lets not even go to marriage. Articles (referred to on Wiki) talk about how many of the members of the party saw it as morally wrong. If Reform had it's way, the state would have probably returned to the bedrooms of the nation.

bullsh-- uh, citation please?

Reform's blue sheet talked about how they were opposed to "suddenly altering the ethnic makeup of Canada." Scary stuff. They also opposed official bilingualism and multiculturalism. Essentially, the opposed large parts of what Canada is. They wanted a single Canadian identity, something that hasn't existed at any time since Confederation.

Some people apparently think opposing state-sponsored multiculturalism and state-enforced bilingualism, and hating minorities and French people are the exact same thing.

Most disturbing Reform believed that the majority (as long as they were white [that belief of course doesn't extend to all members]) was always right. There was almost no protection against a majority opinion. That's where the threat to minority rights comes in.

While the support for referendums was a controversial (and impractical) part of the Reform platform, I don't see that this posed a threat to anyone's civil liberties. People would have had the exact same protection against the majority opinion that they always have against the majority opinion, or any other measure the government chooses to impose, majority-driven or not.

In the words of one supporter, when talking about Manning: "You’re a fine white person. You know, we are letting in too many people from the Third World, the low blacks, the low Hispanics. They’re going to take over the province.”

Or: “Let them [Quebeckers] go. We don’t need Quebec.”

Now, these things aren't true of all Reform members, but they are true of a much higher percentage than in other parties.

One can find supporters of any political party whose views would be embarrassing to the party as a whole. ("Don't support Bob Rae! He is married to a Jew!")

While you started off with all this hyperbole-- "against minority rights!" "want to break up the country!" "extremism!" -- your attempt to justify those comments falls considerably short of the hyperbole.

In the words of Dalton Camp in 1994:

"The speechifying gives off acrid whiffs of xenophobia, homophobia, and paranoia—like an exhaust—in which it seems clear both orator and audience have been seized by some private terror: immigrants, lesbians, people out of work or from out of town and criminals."

An enemy of the Reform Party invoking "scary scary scary"? Shocking.

Dalton Camp was a bitter old man who never forgave Reform for putting his Progressive Conservatives out of business.

-k

[Smallc]

My apologies. Rather than "bullshit... bullshit... bullshit," I should have written "citation please? citation please? citation please?"

Look, I've read enough on the Constitution and our form of government to know that very few constitutional scholars have any love for reform. Much of what I know comes from books that are cited on wiki, meaning that everything isn't necessarily correct, but it certainly isn't far from the truth if it isn't exact. Much of what they stood for in terms of government reform went against every founding principle of this nation and every principle of it's government system. This is a separate criticism from the reality of the party being full of people who....didn't like other people for various reasons. I live in the middle of Reform country, thank you very much, and I've had enough experience to know who Reform is.

Oh, and support for making abortion illegal and support for preserving Canada's ethnic makeup (whatever that means), well, that is radical right wing and xenophobic in terms of modern day canada.

Dalton Camp was a bitter old man who never forgave Reform for putting his Progressive Conservatives out of business.

And of course you, and a Reform supporter to the end would disagree with those comments. From what I know of the reform members in my own community and family, the comments are spot on. Much support for reform was born out of ignorance and bigotry, and the statements by many members of the party (both in public and private) has confirmed that for me time and again.

[Alta4ever]

And of course you, and a Reform supporter to the end would disagree with those comments. From what I know of the reform members in my own community and family, the comments are spot on. Much support for reform was born out of ignorance and bigotry, and the statements by many members of the party (both in public and private) has confirmed that for me time and again.

Maybe you have a problem with your family as most of what you think the reform movement followers founded the party are all wrong. The problem is you are probably to young to understand the movement, or what was at play in the eighties.

[punked]

Maybe you have a problem with your family as most of what you think the reform movement followers founded the party are all wrong. The problem is you are probably to young to understand the movement, or what was at play in the eighties.

I think maybe you are too young to remember what they were in the 30's as the Social Credit, same party different name.

[Smallc]

Exactly punked.

[Argus]

In Canada, it does. Canadians are OK with the fiscal right (to a point), but most have no desire to have their social lives dictated by policy.

Unless that policy is liberal, right?

Liberal laws which can put you in prison for saying something which offends people is GOOD!

[Smallc]

Did I say that it was good? There should some restrictions on most things in life, but we always have to be reasonable, and that's something that Reform rarely was.

[punked]

Did I say that it was good? There should some restrictions on most things in life, but we always have to be reasonable, and that's something that Reform rarely was.

To be fair I think the Reform party had more of an effect on the Liberals of the time who went on to Privatize many crown corporations such as Petro Canada which was a key Reform platform promise then they did the Conservatives.

[Alta4ever]

I think maybe you are too young to remember what they were in the 30's as the Social Credit, same party different name.

Gee I wonder if you remeber what the CCF was in the 30's?

[punked]

Gee I wonder if you remeber what the CCF was in the 30's?

I don't I do remember that the Social Credit party endorsed Tommy Douglas in his first run at Federal government though.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Gee I wonder if you remeber what the CCF was in the 30's?

Three very different parties, CCF Social Credit and the Conservatives. Very different indeed. There is literally zero compatability between the Reform Party and Social Credit either.

[Alta4ever]

I don't I do remember that the Social Credit party endorsed Tommy Douglas in his first run at Federal government though.

Maybe its time you learned something about the NDP's past and its "hero".

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=5576.0;wap2

[punked]

Three very different parties, CCF Social Credit and the Conservatives. Very different indeed. There is literally zero compatability between the Reform Party and Social Credit either.

The Reform Party basically lifted the Social Credit party accept for the Social Credits hate of bankers. They believed central power needed to be lessoned and Handed down to the provinces, as well as "opposing an extensive and redistributive welfare state." Very driven by the wedge issues of the time. The Social Credit days it was race relations, while it was immigration in the Reform days.

In the end they even used the same colours and their leader Manning's Daddy lead the credit at one time. Yeah their are some differences but one could say the same of the Liberals today and of the Liberals 8 years ago.

[Alta4ever]

Three very different parties, CCF Social Credit and the Conservatives. Very different indeed. There is literally zero compatability between the Reform Party and Social Credit either.

I wanted Punked to undstand that the NDP (his party of choice) has its roots in some very unaccepable theories by todays standards. Something far beyond the pale of centre right social conservative dogma.

[punked]

Maybe its time you learned something about the NDP's past and its "hero".

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=5576.0;wap2

Maybe it is time you actually looked at history and realize that when push came to shove and those types of decisions had to be made Tommy vetoed them Twice as health care minister and Premier saying those are the people who need our help most and instead invested money in programs to help the needed at the time. Also that other figures like ChurchHill and Teddy Roosevelt at one time thought eugenics to be a peachy Idea. I know you are one for selective history but if that is all you got something Tommy didn't even support as a leader then you aren't doing too well.

Edited July 19, 2009 by punked

[Alta4ever]

The Reform Party basically lifted the Social Credit party accept for the Social Credits hate of bankers. They believed central power needed to be lessoned and Handed down to the provinces, as well as "opposing an extensive and redistributive welfare state." Very driven by the wedge issues of the time. The Social Credit days it was race relations, while it was immigration in the Reform days.

In the end they even used the same colours and their leader Manning's Daddy lead the credit at one time. Yeah their are some differences but one could say the same of the Liberals today and of the Liberals 8 years ago.

So what does fiscal conservatism have to do with social conservatism? Nothing wrong with fiscal conservatism, the breif experiment that Paul Martin played with in the 90's at the push of the reform party atleast was a little better then previous social experiments of Trudeau.

[punked]

I wanted Punked to undstand that the NDP (his party of choice) has its roots in some very unaccepable theories by todays standards. Something far beyond the pale of centre right social conservative dogma.

Which theories would those be? The Canadian Pension plan the CCF pushed through? The Bill of rights? Health Care?

[Alta4ever]

Maybe it is time you actually looked at history and realize that when push came to shove and those types of decisions had to be made Tommy vetoed them Twice as health care minister and Premier saying those are the people who need our help most and instead invested money in programs to help the needed at the time. Also that other figures like ChurchHill and Teddy Roosevelt at one time thought eugenics to be a peachy Idea. I know you are one for selective history but if that is all you got something Tommy didn't even support as a leader then you aren't doing too well.

Didn't support it, or couldn't pass it.