Czech ambassador to Canada recalled

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

Unless your party is willing to agree to severely restricting refugees I don't see what other solution is at hand.

I've seen no indicatton that the Tories have even asked the Opposition to help with solutions.

Riiiight, which is why Quebec accepts FAR and away fewer immigrants than any other province. Quebec has control of its own immigrantion, and gets to set numbers and criteria. Of course, the main criteria is they speak French. Requiring immigrants to Canada to speak English has been decried as racist so we don't make that requirement, but it's okay for Quebec to demand they speak French.

Quebec made a separate immigration deal for francophones. In 2006 that meant 23.5% of immigrants. The feds couldn't find more applicant with francophone skills that were qualifed. Quebec will have to look to the provinical nominee program like other provinces to find the people they are looking for.

August is pro immigrant, and about half a dozen times now I've challenged him on it, asking him how he'd like for Quebec to take the same numbers of immigrants as Ontario - of mostly non-French speakers. He never answers the question.

Ontario is free to make a deal for English and French speakers only. It hasn't.

We're not talking about the "Tourist industry" we're talking about what profit we would gain from that percentage of Mexicans who will now no longer visit VS the costs of housing tens of thousands of Mexicans who don't speak English or French and have no applicable skills or education - indefinitely.

There are not tens of thousands of Mexicans staying in Canada as refugees. There were about 4000 to 5000 a year since 2007.

The Tories should simply do the work faster. It doesn't require legislation to do that.

Instead, they will do millions of dollars of damge to the Canadian economy.

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

Europe will not retaliate. The EU is not one country. They all operate unilaterally and the countries that matter (Western and South Western Europe) have nothing to gain by forcing Canadians to have Visas. There will be no solidarity move here in the EU.

Well, it looks like they are moving towards a visa requirement.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/presidency+ba...2985/story.html

The European Union presidency said Wednesday it favours visa requirements for Canadians travelling to EU member states after Canada ordered Czech nationals to get visas.
"As the presidency of the EU, we are in favour of this reciprocity," Swedish Migration and Asylum Policy Minister Tobias Billstroem told AFP.

"But it's up to the (EU) commission to handle the proposal, because the commission is responsible for the reciprocity mechanism," he added.

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

I agree with where you're going with this but I also don't think fixing the refugee system will prevent the costs of people coming to the country totally broke without a plane ticket back. You have to have a system to refuse them entry in the first place otherwise we'll end up paying for them anyways.

The EU president today said the reciprocity agreement kicks in with visas for the Czechs. Put a visa in place for one member and visas are required in retaliation. You might think it is bloviating but it is in the legislation for the EU.

As for Mexcio, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot for a country rapidly becoming a primary tourist visitor.

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

I agree with this move, though I'm sure that there will be a few true refugees that will have some trouble because of it. Hopefully this will allow the backlog to be taken care of and the system to be fixed so there isn't a backlog in the future.

It will just make the recession worse. And the EU will retaliate and this is going to get worse than it is now.

Smallc · July 15, 2009

AT the same time, we can't simply allow the flow to continue (especially in the case of Mexico), when so many of the claims turn out to be false. Perhaps this should be a temporary measure while we fix the problems with the claim system.

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

AT the same time, we can't simply allow the flow to continue (especially in the case of Mexico), when so many of the claims turn out to be false. Perhaps this should be a temporary measure while we fix the problems with the claim system.

I don't see any evidence the problem is being fixed.

This is the Conservative solution to fixing the problem and it hurts Canada. It will hurt even more when the EU retaliates. It will hurt a lot of Canadians if the Mexicans retaliate.

Wild Bill · July 15, 2009

That may well be but, as I said, there is no movement in the House now to stop the process of hiring more people in the department to process the work quickly.
Even with visas, as some people have noted, it won't stop some from overstaying their visas or claiming refugee status. The problem remains one that has to be fixed in the department itself.

You keep making this point but I still fail to see the logic. We never have a shortage of bureaucrats. Rather, we always have a dearth of people to ENFORCE the system!

Refugee claim, visas, regular immigration, who cares? We spend only a pittance on the resources to deal with those who abuse the system, in ANY such area! Even if we deport someone, they are far more likely to go underground, considering the system expects them to VOLUNTARILY show up at the airport!

The Titanic is sinking and you're arguing who has the right to sun bathe on the upper decks!

As for EU retaliation, perhaps we could make them feel better by setting up refugee camps for the Roma and feeding them a diet of mostly seal meat.

How far would the EU be willing to push such issues if we closed our Maritime ports to their fishing vessels?

As for Mexico, why on earth would anyone want to visit a country where so many tourists have been murdered, with only a cursory and primitive investigation by the local authorities, is totally beyond me!

Edited July 15, 2009 by Wild Bill

Smallc · July 15, 2009

I would say that Mexico will probably have more problems if they retaliate. Canadians make up a large part of the Mexican tourist industry, and there are already enough problems there that are causing Canadians to consider avoiding Mexico. This would be just one more reason not to go.

Smallc · July 15, 2009

The Titanic is sinking and you're arguing who has the right to sun bathe on the upper decks!

The Titanic sank a long time ago. Canada doesn't have nearly enough problems to even be said to be approaching the iceberg.

Remiel · July 15, 2009

If the Europeans retaliate, when do you think the visa requirement will kick in by?

Dave_ON · July 15, 2009

I would tend to agree that the EU will no doubt retaliate as stated in my original post. This will be problematic and I feel it may result in the GoC revoking their decision. As I mentioned this is definitely not a permanent fix but should allow us sufficient time to come up with an alternative plan of action. Apparently one is on the way but we likely won't see any more about it until the fall session of Parliament resumes.

I understand it does damage the tourist industry but at the same time it seems our solutions are few at this juncture. I do question the timing of it, as we are smack dab in the middle of tourist season. Surely the impact could have been minimalized had it been implemented in the late fall, and an alternative solution drafted come next tourist season.

On a side not considering the recent EU seal ban and this imminent Visa retaliation, it seems to me that the EU is entirely too powerful an entity. We don’t really seem to have sufficient retaliatory tools at our disposal as we are only one country. If they take this type of approach to all matters it will only result in long term hurt for them. Protectionism hurts everyone, but no one more so than the people the protectionist measures are designed to protect.

Wildbill the seal meat comment actually made me LOL.

Wilber · July 15, 2009

Regardless of the need to take action this has been very clumsily done. There are people coming here on vacation and to visit relatives today and in the immediate future, who have made vacation arrangements long in advance and shelled out thousands in airfares who are now SOL. So are the tour companies and hotels who were counting on their business. On the other hand we have governments expending large amounts of money trying to promote tourism from Mexico. Ridiculous.

Smallc · July 15, 2009

That is very true. I agree with what the government did (as an interim measure), but it seems to have been handled in a very amateurish way.

Moonbox · July 15, 2009

The EU president today said the reciprocity agreement kicks in with visas for the Czechs. Put a visa in place for one member and visas are required in retaliation. You might think it is bloviating but it is in the legislation for the EU.
As for Mexcio, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot for a country rapidly becoming a primary tourist visitor.

Jdobbin watch and wait to see how many EU countries slap visa restrictions on Canadians. Other than the Czech Republic I see very few if any that will and even then, like I said, it won't be from any countries that matter.

As for your idea that the immigration and refugee system should be fixed, I agree with that entirely. Fix the source of the problem and you have a solution. At a certain point you're better off just buying a new ship than having to spend all your time and money filling holes in the leaky one.

On the other hand, how easy do you think this is to fix? It would take a change in immigration law would it not?

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

Jdobbin watch and wait to see how many EU countries slap visa restrictions on Canadians. Other than the Czech Republic I see very few if any that will and even then, like I said, it won't be from any countries that matter.

The reciprocity agreements usually make this sort of thing automatic.

If we do get hit by this, it will end up costing Canadians and Canada an awful lot.

As for your idea that the immigration and refugee system should be fixed, I agree with that entirely. Fix the source of the problem and you have a solution. At a certain point you're better off just buying a new ship than having to spend all your time and money filling holes in the leaky one.
On the other hand, how easy do you think this is to fix? It would take a change in immigration law would it not?

I keep hearing that it won't. Have enough people processing the work will help. Illegitimate refugees should be expedited but when their hearings are months and months away, this is a problem.

As it is, there will have to be more people working to issue visas. The problem with that is it nets lots of legitmate travel and trade business.

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

How far would the EU be willing to push such issues if we closed our Maritime ports to their fishing vessels?

By my reckoning, they usually go toe to toe on trade issues. I expect, we'd be shut out somehow in Europe.

Mexico, why on earth would anyone want to visit a country where so many tourists have been murdered, with only a cursory and primitive investigation by the local authorities, is totally beyond me!

Good point. Maybe the Tories will ban trade and travel to this place.

jdobbin · July 15, 2009

I would say that Mexico will probably have more problems if they retaliate. Canadians make up a large part of the Mexican tourist industry, and there are already enough problems there that are causing Canadians to consider avoiding Mexico. This would be just one more reason not to go.

They might have more of an issue.

Perhaps Canadians who like to travel to Mexico will point the fingers at the Tory government for this impediment rather than Mexico.

Smallc · July 15, 2009

That may very well be. I hope so.

Argus · July 15, 2009

You don't need a bill in the house in order to hire enough staff to address the current backlog and speed up the process. The lack of adequate staff looks like obstruction- an attempt to make the situation look even worse than it is, to make a political case.

If your goal is to bring over four or five hundred thousand illiterate third world welfare denizens each year, than I suppose doing your best to speed up the processing without any thought for reducing the number of phony refugees would be an option.

The charge of racism is an easy one to make, since the Alliance/Reform/Tories (I don't include the PCs in that list.) provide plenty of evidence for it without being prompted.

There is nothing any member of the Alliance/Reform/Tories has ever said or done with regard to race which wasn't also said or done by PCs and Liberals. You ignore the latter, or dismiss it as one person's idiocy, not blaming the whole party.

But it's irrelevent. Taxpayers - I don't know if you've ever met one - have this thing about bringing in ever more numbers of illiterate, uneducated third world rabble just so people like you can feel good about yourself and your generosity.

Keepitsimple · July 15, 2009

Once a refugee lands in Canada, it costs an average of $29,000 for each and every claimant - some are more, some are less. Although I can't find the supporting article from The Star (it's in front of me) electronically, I'm writing a statement from Jason Kenney word for word.

It cost Canada about $29,000 to shelter and care fot a single asylim seeker. More than 12,000 Czech and Mexican refugee claimants have arrived in Canada since late 2007 and the vast majority have been ruled to be illegitimate, making the finacial toll untenable, Kenney said.

No kidding. If 10,000 were illegitimate, that translates to $290 million in a little over a year. Is it any wonder that we have to take steps now - right away - pronto???!!!

Edited July 15, 2009 by Keepitsimple

Moonbox · July 15, 2009

But it's irrelevent. Taxpayers - I don't know if you've ever met one - have this thing about bringing in ever more numbers of illiterate, uneducated third world rabble just so people like you can feel good about yourself and your other's people's generosity.

Fixed it for you. :lol:

Edited July 15, 2009 by Moonbox

Moonbox · July 15, 2009

They might have more of an issue.
Perhaps Canadians who like to travel to Mexico will point the fingers at the Tory government for this impediment rather than Mexico.

Mexico has nothing to gain by this and thus they won't do it. More Canadian dollars are spent down there than the other way around by a LONG shot.

As far as the EU retaliating, just like I said before: Watch and see. The EU won't be forcing France or GB to make Canadians require Visas anytime soon.

I would also suggest that Canadians probably spend more money in Europe than Europeans spend here. I don't have any numbers but I would be surprised if it was the other way around.

Smallc · July 15, 2009

I would also suggest that Canadians probably spend more money in Europe than Europeans spend here. I don't have any numbers but I would be surprised if it was the other way around.

That's what I was thinking as well. Mexico definitely has more to lose than we do and Europe probably does to. The only problem that this may cause is damage to our free trade negotiations with the EU.

scribblet · July 15, 2009

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/columnists...137471-sun.html
And the whiff of racism is as undeniable as the abuse of the system.

Nonsense, why is it that there can be no reasonable discussion of immigration, refugees etc. without someone playing a race card.. Getting a handle on bogus refugees and keeping our expenses down, is not racist,

capricorn · July 15, 2009

I understand it does damage the tourist industry but at the same time it seems our solutions are few at this juncture. I do question the timing of it, as we are smack dab in the middle of tourist season. Surely the impact could have been minimalized had it been implemented in the late fall, and an alternative solution drafted come next tourist season.

With the global recession, isn't tourism down anyway? Is it not better to make changes now before the next peak tourism season kicks in once economies recover?