Moonbox Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 Old-time terrorists sit around the proverbial table (i.e. the UN Security Council) and you now dictate that late-comer terrorists should be excluded!? Before you use the word 'terrorism' maybe you should understand the meaning of the word better. Like I said earlier, comparing Hamas terrorists with Israel is a pretty shakey assertion given that Israel, if it wanted, to, could wipe the Palestinian population off the map. If it wanted to wipe Egypt off the map, it could likely do that too. There's a tremendous difference between a group of people who DELIBERATELY attack and murder civilizian populations and an established country that goes out of its way to prevent civilian casualties when it feels the need to retaliate against hostile targets. If the Israelis wanted to murder innocent civilians, why wouldn't they be carpet-bombing instead of surgically striking specific targets? I really wonder at that... Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
benny Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 Before you use the word 'terrorism' maybe you should understand the meaning of the word better. Like I said earlier, comparing Hamas terrorists with Israel is a pretty shakey assertion given that Israel, if it wanted, to, could wipe the Palestinian population off the map. If it wanted to wipe Egypt off the map, it could likely do that too. There's a tremendous difference between a group of people who DELIBERATELY attack and murder civilizian populations and an established country that goes out of its way to prevent civilian casualties when it feels the need to retaliate against hostile targets. If the Israelis wanted to murder innocent civilians, why wouldn't they be carpet-bombing instead of surgically striking specific targets? I really wonder at that... As Canadians, what really matter now is adopting a public position on the destruction of Iran for wanting to become a terrorist state like the United States. Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 Before you use the word 'terrorism' maybe you should understand the meaning of the word better. Like I said earlier, comparing Hamas terrorists with Israel is a pretty shakey assertion given that Israel, if it wanted, to, could wipe the Palestinian population off the map. If it wanted to wipe Egypt off the map, it could likely do that too. There's a tremendous difference between a group of people who DELIBERATELY attack and murder civilizian populations and an established country that goes out of its way to prevent civilian casualties when it feels the need to retaliate against hostile targets. If the Israelis wanted to murder innocent civilians, why wouldn't they be carpet-bombing instead of surgically striking specific targets? I really wonder at that... If I was a citizen of Israel, I would be advocating the elimination of the problem immediately. Lucky for everyone I am not a citizen of Israel. I would not be able to stand still for this crap. If that kind of thing was happening in the USA, how long would it take to form up a posse and get the job done if the government refused to act in a timely fashion? Quote
Bonam Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 If I was a citizen of Israel, I would be advocating the elimination of the problem immediately. Lucky for everyone I am not a citizen of Israel. I would not be able to stand still for this crap. If that kind of thing was happening in the USA, how long would it take to form up a posse and get the job done if the government refused to act in a timely fashion? If it was the USA, the tiny fraction of a percent of Palestinians that were still alive would be living on a reserve in the middle of the desert. No other nation besides Israel would stand still for this kind of crap, most certainly not the USA. It took but one terrorist attack to provoke the USA to gather up its allies and launch a full scale invasion of the land where that attack originated, topple its government, cause the death of tens of thousands of civilians, and impose a puppet regime. And this is considered a just and legal war by the world. It took only the suspicion of illegal weapons development to provoke the USA to invade another nation and do the same there. Unfortunately the world applies a completely different standard to Israel, which has suffered thousands of terrorist attacks, and yet is criticized for every action it takes against the perpetrators. Partially it is it's own fault, however. Israel has been far too soft for far too long, and has not done enough to silence unwarranted criticism and propaganda, nor to annihilate those who would do it harm. The world now expects Israel to sit still as rockets fall over its towns and cities, and is outraged when it reacts. I, too, if I were living in Israel, would be outraged that my government has done so little to ensure my security, that it holds the lives of Israelis in such low regard that it would not take all steps needed to safeguard them, regardless of international pressures. Israel needs to make clear that any attack on its soil will bear terrible consequences for whatever nation it originated from. It needs to utterly annihilate organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, to the last man. It must hunt their supporters to the ends of the Earth, as the USA is in the process of doing with the Taliban and with Al-Qaeda. It needs a government with a backbone, that will do what must be done, rather than bowing to the whining of nations whose people have long forgotten what it truly means to be at war with an enemy bent on your destruction. Quote
benny Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 You mistake actions from intentions, and behaviors from emotions. I speak of child like behavior on the part of terrorists. Adults use logic and experience to mitigate their emotions from their behaviors and actions. They think before they speak. The speak instead of lashing out. They control themselves.Do you see the difference? You are very close of saying that Palestinians are mere zoo animals! Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 You are very close of saying that Palestinians are mere zoo animals! Not at all. They are people, just like you and me. However when they support terrorists, they become animals and should be treated as such. Quote
benny Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Not at all. They are people, just like you and me. However when they support terrorists, they become animals and should be treated as such. Terror is the most essential part of human nature. http://www.cla.purdue.edu/academic/engl/th...tions/real.html Edited July 28, 2009 by benny Quote
Moonbox Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 Terror 'the emotion' is very different from terror 'the deliberate murder of innocents'. Hamas and others like it are very much inclined to the latter. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 Terror 'the emotion' is very different from terror 'the deliberate murder of innocents'. Hamas and others like it are very much inclined to the latter. Exactly! That is the nature of the problem, the undefined and underlying base emotions and responses in the absence of the rule of law. The use of violence to achieve an end has its own political problems associated with it. In this case the problem is being attempted to be farmed out to international interests to present a local solution. In other words a resolution that is destined to fail. Until the two parties agree to stop killing each other, the killing will continue. One side or the other has to take the first step in peace. Israel has made several first steps at peace, their reward for their efforts has been more violence. Quote
myata Posted July 28, 2009 Report Posted July 28, 2009 I could agree with a national policy of shunning other nations who do not meet our standards of behavior. I think it would be the only consistent position an honest broker of peace could take. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Bonam Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 I think it would be the only consistent position an honest broker of peace could take. If we shunned every nation that did not meet our "standards of behavior" in one manner or another, you could count on two hands how many nations would not be shunned. That is the fundamental flaw in the reasoning of Israel's rabid critics. They seek to bully it because they think it might actually work, as Israel has shown itself to be weak when it comes to standing up to international pressure (or they have other reasons, no more worthy). Meanwhile other nations whose crimes are far more extensive and heinous escape all but token criticism, since the armchair peacemakers know that condemning them is useless. Quote
jbg Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 Wrong country JBG!My MP is Nita Lowey. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 Are you entitled to speak on the behalf of Canadian Jews!? I have serious differences with jdobbin and he in fact has me on "ignore". However, I do count him as a friend of Canadian or for that matter any Jews. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Israel has been there now for 60+ years. It has the means and capability to vastly and easily increase its territory, yet it stays its hand. If Hamas and other organizations would lay off for a significant period of time, and negotiate to NOT attack at all providing recently appropriated land was given back, you might have an argument. As far as I know, however, they don't do that. Hamas and Hezbollah etc are financed in large part by foreign nations who have no interest with peace in Israel/Palestine. Hamas will continue attacks regardless and thus Israel, while not completely blameless, has no reason to make concessions. If the Israelis wanted to murder innocent civilians, why wouldn't they be carpet-bombing instead of surgically striking specific targets? I really wonder at that...Bang on for both!!! Edited July 29, 2009 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 Children cannot terrorize adults. Thus I am not terrorized. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
M.Dancer Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 Thus I am not terrorized. He sounds like he definately does not have children. Parents are continuously in terror because of their kids. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jbg Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 He sounds like he definately does not have children. Parents are continuously in terror because of their kids. I have a 13 and almost 12 year old. I do not let them terrorize me or my wife. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 The English called the Jews terrorists before they formed a state. I know what Benny is getting at, but I refuse to accept the argument because the Jews were let us say a little more circumspect in their targeting and the conflict was contained in a more acceptable manner. That said, there is a difference between collateral damage to civilians in a military effort and the targeting of civilians by a para-military operation. Quote
myata Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 If we shunned every nation that did not meet our "standards of behavior" in one manner or another, you could count on two hands how many nations would not be shunned. That is the fundamental flaw in the reasoning of Israel's rabid critics. They seek to bully it because they think it might actually work, as Israel has shown itself to be weak when it comes to standing up to international pressure (or they have other reasons, no more worthy). Meanwhile other nations whose crimes are far more extensive and heinous escape all but token criticism, since the armchair peacemakers know that condemning them is useless. And if there's no place for standards and principles in our international politics, then it'll be all about serving current interests via gang like affiliations (I close my eyes to your dirty business if you ignore mine), and I'd be OK with that, if Dobbin wouldn't insist on applying to it lofty words like "peace" and "justice", as this is obviously the last thing such affiliations would be about. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
myata Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 The English called the Jews terrorists before they formed a state. I know what Benny is getting at, but I refuse to accept the argument because the Jews were let us say a little more circumspect in their targeting and the conflict was contained in a more acceptable manner.That said, there is a difference between collateral damage to civilians in a military effort and the targeting of civilians by a para-military operation. Yeah of course, I want to reserve the right to decide which killing or dirty act is "better" than another, because that's how I convince myself why such acts can go unnoticed and ignored, and therefore why I'm better than the other guy, even if from any objective, practical measurement, I may not really look much different from him. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 Yeah of course, I want to reserve the right to decide which killing or dirty act is "better" than another, because that's how I convince myself why such acts can go unnoticed and ignored, and therefore why I'm better than the other guy, even if from any objective, practical measurement, I may not really look much different from him. You mistake me, or I just bobbled the explanation, one or the other. Let me try this again. The terrorists target civilians, the IDF targets terrorists. Quote
benny Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 Terror 'the emotion' is very different from terror 'the deliberate murder of innocents'. Innocence is not part of human nature. Quote
jdobbin Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Posted July 29, 2009 And if there's no place for standards and principles in our international politics, then it'll be all about serving current interests via gang like affiliations (I close my eyes to your dirty business if you ignore mine), and I'd be OK with that, if Dobbin wouldn't insist on applying to it lofty words like "peace" and "justice", as this is obviously the last thing such affiliations would be about. Your principle seems to be to focus on Israel. The fact is Israel has come to the table, has come to peace arrangements with Jordan and Egypt, has turned over land and re-moved settlements from Sinai and Gaza and is willing to do more. All the while, you ignore the fact that Hamas does not want to talk or make any deals and seeks to remove Israel from the Middle East. Quote
benny Posted July 29, 2009 Report Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Your principle seems to be to focus on Israel. Maybe myata doesn't feel the need to bow before the most extremist of Canadian Jews. Edited July 29, 2009 by benny Quote
jdobbin Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Posted July 29, 2009 Maybe myata doesn't feel the need to bow before the most extremist of Canadian Jews. He does seem to want to ignore Hamas though. Quote
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