Tory Senator vs Republican leader

[Topaz]

The Tory defended his hospital in Kingston when a Republican Senator started to trash our healthcare system all due to some in the US that don't want national healthcare because of the cost or is it they would lose money on their investments in the private sector? One person that also trashed our healthcare was Susan Sommers on a Republican radio show. She said that her inlaws were doctors in British Columbia and that they had had it with the healthcare system and was moving to California. She said that dogs get better care than people. The the next day she shows up on the Shopping Channel in Toronto selling her wares and being all nicey to Canadians. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1194686/

[Smallc]

Oh boy, what patriotic comments on the story.

[bush_cheney2004]

President Obama and the US Congress have already rejected any attempt at implementing a single-payer, Canadian style health care system because it would be political suicide. Not only is it the highest cost universal access system, it does not perform as well when compared to public-private systems of the kind seen in France.

Americans have already dusted off the rhetoric of long lines and rationing predicted in 1993, when President Clinton and his plan went down in burning flames.

[Sir Bandelot]

I work at that exact hospital, and its all lies.

[Smallc]

Statistics don't lie. They can be interpreted in different ways, but they don't lie.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Statistics don't lie. They can be interpreted in different ways, but they don't lie.

Ask the right question, get the right answer. Especially when you consider how the question is formatted in conjunction with the the only available well formatted answers then things become very clear.

The efforts with respect to mathematically computations are equally well designed.

[Sir Bandelot]

Statistics don't lie. They can be interpreted in different ways, but they don't lie.

Thats right, statistics are just numbers.

The way the Senator portrayed the information is flat out wrong. And I can speak to this directly, I live here and work here for over ten years. Population in this region is comparatively low and waiting lists for various surgeries and treatment procedures are typically a few weeks, not 6 months.

The Senator’s statement, for example, that the average wait time for hip replacement surgery at KGH is 196 days, is incorrect. The actual average wait time is 91 days – less than half what was stated. Knee replacements were quoted as 340 days but our average wait time is 109 days. Senator McConnell states brain, breast and prostate cancer surgery targets are nearly three months. KGH’s average overall wait time for surgical treatment of all forms of cancer is 31 days (8 for neurosurgical cancer, 16 for breast cancer and 49 for prostate cancer). The Senator’s statement that Ontarians may have to wait six months for cardiac bypass surgery – “a surgery that Americans often get right away” – is again, not true. The median wait time for cardiac surgery at KGH is 32 days.

They are politicizing the situation, obviously.

[Smallc]

The Senator’s statement, for example, that the average wait time for hip replacement surgery at KGH is 196 days, is incorrect.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that Senator Segal and the hospital administrator were lying.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The Senator’s statement, for example, that the average wait time for hip replacement surgery at KGH is 196 days, is incorrect. The actual average wait time is 91 days – less than half what was stated. Knee replacements were quoted as 340 days but our average wait time is 109 days. Senator McConnell states brain, breast and prostate cancer surgery targets are nearly three months. KGH’s average overall wait time for surgical treatment of all forms of cancer is 31 days (8 for neurosurgical cancer, 16 for breast cancer and 49 for prostate cancer). The Senator’s statement that Ontarians may have to wait six months for cardiac bypass surgery – “a surgery that Americans often get right away” – is again, not true. The median wait time for cardiac surgery at KGH is 32 days.

Even if this is true...that is way too long and politically unacceptable in the USA.

[Sir Bandelot]

Even if this is true...that is way too long and politically unacceptable in the USA.

Actual response time depends on the severity and the needs of the individual patient.

Politically unacceptable, is also having no health care. Yet that seems to have served the US well enough for a long, long time.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[August1991]

The Senator’s statement, for example, that the average wait time for hip replacement surgery at KGH is 196 days, is incorrect. The actual average wait time is 91 days – less than half what was stated. Knee replacements were quoted as 340 days but our average wait time is 109 days. Senator McConnell states brain, breast and prostate cancer surgery targets are nearly three months. KGH’s average overall wait time for surgical treatment of all forms of cancer is 31 days (8 for neurosurgical cancer, 16 for breast cancer and 49 for prostate cancer). The Senator’s statement that Ontarians may have to wait six months for cardiac bypass surgery – “a surgery that Americans often get right away” – is again, not true. The median wait time for cardiac surgery at KGH is 32 days.

Since we are talking about statistics, and about wait times, it seems useful to point out how "average wait times" are a useless concept. First of all, to calculate an average requires some end date when either the patient died, the surgery was never done or the surgery was completed successfully. But what of all the people still in the queue? Since their case has not been finalized, they are not part of "average" statistics. Moreover, a few cases dealt with quickly can easily bring down "average wait time". Lastly, since "average wait times" are now a political statistic, it is a certainty that hospital administrators will bend or interpret the data in such a manner to make themselves look good. Private corporations face external auditors and even then there is fudging of numbers. Canada's health administrators face no external auditors when it comes to politically charged statistics.

----

I have several minds on this whole debate and I'm not ideological. It seems to me however that bureaucratic systems which separate the money coming in from the money going out can survive for about 50 years or so and then they become very ratty around the edges. Canadian hospitals (and large clinics) receive money in a way that is wholly unconnected to their expenses. Compare that to any private business, even a single doctor or small clinic, which is acutely aware of what generates revenues and where the costs are.

In short, aside from its other problems, I think that Canada's health system is unsustainable.

[Smallc]

First of all, to calculate an average

Many places (I know my province for sure) use either a median wait time or a maximum wait time because of the problems with calculating averages.

As for the sustainability of our system, I'm not sure what you would suggest to replace it. Every system around the world is getting more expensive, and even though ours is expensive per person compared to others, it isn't all that expensive as a percentage of GDP.

Having hospitals receive money for services may work, but because of the way they are set up (as charities or not for profits) it might not either.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Smallc

[Smallc]

Canada's health administrators face no external auditors when it comes to politically charged statistics.

You don't think that the provincial health plans would take an interest in a wait time that looks abnormal? There are also not for profit groups that watch the system. There is oversight and the system works most of the time.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actual response time depends on the severity and the needs of the individual patient.

I'm sure it does.....up to and including seeking faster care abroad.

Politically unacceptable, is also having no health care. Yet that seems to have served the US well enough for a long, long time.

Correct...universal access and payer is not a goal of the US system. Suffering equally in queue is a patriotic act in Canada.

[Sir Bandelot]

Correct...universal access and payer is not a goal of the US system. Suffering equally in queue is a patriotic act in Canada.

As stated, those who are in greater need move to the front of the line. If the problem was as severe as some of the statements made by those with a political agenda, it would have been dealt with by now. We who live here use the system when necessary. There is no advantage in hiding the facts if something is broken.

Another way to compare using statistics is to use survival rates. I don't feel like looking them up, but I have seen where Canada compares favourably. Again, if people are dieing there is no benefit to hiding this fact... We are not in the busoiness of killing ourselves.

[bush_cheney2004]

As stated, those who are in greater need move to the front of the line. If the problem was as severe as some of the statements made by those with a political agenda, it would have been dealt with by now. We who live here use the system when necessary. There is no advantage in hiding the facts if something is broken.

That doesn't jibe with recently mandated wait time analysis and reporting by province, previously clouded in mystery.

Another way to compare using statistics is to use survival rates. I don't feel like looking them up, but I have seen where Canada compares favourably. Again, if people are dieing there is no benefit to hiding this fact... We are not in the busoiness of killing ourselves.

That's great for Canadians, not Americans, who are in the business of killing themselves with riskier circumstances and choices (see Michael Jackson).

[Argus]

That's great for Canadians, not Americans, who are in the business of killing themselves with riskier circumstances and choices (see Michael Jackson).

Americans are brainwashed into thinking public health care would mean some sort of Soviet style system which removes their choices. In fact, Americans have a Soviet style system which removes their choices. They just don't seem to realize it. Canadian and European patients have far more freedom to select their doctors and hospitals than American patients. And those doctors face far less interference from bureacrats in their medical decisions than American doctors face. No Canadian doctor has to call up an insurance company bureacrat to get permission to perform an operation or prescribe a drug the way US doctors constantly do.

[bush_cheney2004]

Americans are brainwashed into thinking public health care would mean some sort of Soviet style system which removes their choices. In fact, Americans have a Soviet style system which removes their choices. They just don't seem to realize it.

I think Canadians want to believe this if only to bolster faith in their own system, which already has a private component for those with deep pockets.

Canadian and European patients have far more freedom to select their doctors and hospitals than American patients. And those doctors face far less interference from bureacrats in their medical decisions than American doctors face.

False...there is actually a story today about the shortage of primary care doctors and choice in Canada. Frankly, I don't personally give a damn about the doctor I see....I want competence, not a bridge partner.

No Canadian doctor has to call up an insurance company bureacrat to get permission to perform an operation or prescribe a drug the way US doctors constantly do.

Doctors don't do this....there are intermediaries for this that cost even more. Canada's system is great for Canada...obviously your citizens aren't dropping dead like flies. They just suffer longer in a system that promises equal suffering. The American system doesn't make any promises.

[Oleg Bach]

I think Canadians want to believe this if only to bolster faith in their own system, which already has a private component for those with deep pockets.

False...there is actually a story today about the shortage of primary care doctors and choice in Canada. Frankly, I don't personally give a damn about the doctor I see....I want competence, not a bridge partner.

Doctors don't do this....there are intermediaries for this that cost even more. Canada's system is great for Canada...obviously your citizens aren't dropping dead like flies. They just suffer longer in a system that promises equal suffering. The American system doesn't make any promises.

Correct - it's an industry that prolongs life with no quality of life - My mother in law is kept alive artifically - her drugs run about 25 hundred a month - phama loves it - she goes to get her blood sucked out and cleaned and blown back in....through a very expensive machine..I saw my mother go through the same --- they do give equal suffering to all...people that should be dead from natural causes are all over the damned place - not because of some sweet benevolence on the part of our medical machine - but because our machine has grown so big and complex that it needs to eat -------------people - and it chews very very slowly.

[Remiel]

I work at that exact hospital, and its all lies.

I guess that it is nice to know that there is another poster here that is in the area.

[Topaz]

What is so wrong for millions of US citizens to be covered with health insurance by their government. It should be a choice and those like Rush and Hannity who want their insurance fine, but don't stop others who really needed so much that they have to make a choice for food or medication.

[bush_cheney2004]

What is so wrong for millions of US citizens to be covered with health insurance by their government.

Many millions of US citizens are covered with health insurance "by their government". It is called Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, MediCal, MNCare, etc., etc. The programs dwarf anything in Canada.

It should be a choice and those like Rush and Hannity who want their insurance fine, but don't stop others who really needed so much that they have to make a choice for food or medication.

It is a choice....some don't want coverage at all.