Unions in Canada

[Craig1]

Not so tue the largest union in North America is a trades union for blue collar workers. M just had a huge brain fart, oh ya NORTEL! employees who were promised pensions and after 30 years of service this Corperation said "thank you we failed horibly, and well you have no pension" we don't care about you. But you also have stupid unions like the auto workers who allowed GM control of pensions (not a real union if you ask me)

Moral of the story take cash for your services or join a real union with a real pension don't fall for this scam of banking overtime, or stock options or these corperate pension plans, the economy goes up and down and to work 60 years and trust that private company won't fold is not smart.

You cannot blame anyone for wanting to be paid the most they can get, its a dog eat dog world and if you think the government will be there for you , your on drugs. So take what you can get! OH and, put a honest days work in for a honest days pay don't over work yourself or try to be a hero they don't care about you your just a number.

[Craig1]

Not so tue the largest union in North America is a trades union for blue collar workers. M just had a huge brain fart, oh ya NORTEL! employees who were promised pensions and after 30 years of service this Corperation said "thank you we failed horibly, and well you have no pension" we don't care about you. But you also have stupid unions like the auto workers who allowed GM control of pensions (not a real union if you ask me)

Moral of the story take cash for your services or join a real union with a real pension don't fall for this scam of banking overtime, or stock options or these corperate pension plans, the economy goes up and down and to work 60 years and trust that private company won't fold is not smart.

You cannot blame anyone for wanting to be paid the most they can get, its a dog eat dog world and if you think the government will be there for you , your on drugs. So take what you can get! OH and, put a honest days work in for a honest days pay don't over work yourself or try to be a hero they don't care about you your just a number.

[Craig1]

Not so tue the largest union in North America is a trades union for blue collar workers. M just had a huge brain fart, oh ya NORTEL! employees who were promised pensions and after 30 years of service this Corperation said "thank you we failed horibly, and well you have no pension" we don't care about you. But you also have stupid unions like the auto workers who allowed GM control of pensions (not a real union if you ask me)

Moral of the story take cash for your services or join a real union with a real pension don't fall for this scam of banking overtime, or stock options or these corperate pension plans, the economy goes up and down and to work 60 years and trust that private company won't fold is not smart.

You cannot blame anyone for wanting to be paid the most they can get, its a dog eat dog world and if you think the government will be there for you , your on drugs. So take what you can get! OH and, put a honest days work in for a honest days pay don't over work yourself or try to be a hero they don't care about you your just a number.

[Riverwind]

oh ya NORTEL! employees who were promised pensions and after 30 years of service this Corperation

The Nortel union was a leftover from the days when Bell was a regulated monopoly.

You cannot blame anyone for wanting to be paid the most they can get

If that is what you believe then you should be fine with the government legislating the workers back with a contract that strips them of all their rediculous benefits.

[Craig1]

The Nortel union was a leftover from the days when Bell was a regulated monopoly.

If that is what you believe then you should be fine with the government legislating the workers back with a contract that strips them of all their rediculous benefits.

Depends what you mean by strip them of benefits. Most union members pay there own benefits by paying union dues like dental, health, education. If your talking holiday pay then for sure "honest days work, for honest days pay, right?" as for pensions we need them you can look at Alberta who is in crisis as only 20% of the workforce has a pension and a large percent of these old people don't have money saved so now we will be forced to subsidize them with a aging baby boomers and a projected $120 billion dollar debt when inflation kicks in you will see allot of them on the street.

[Oleg Bach]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions - Unions start of well but always become corrupt - they become what they resist. For instance the gargabe guys in Toronto want to bank paid sick days. So if they are sick - they get paid during the illness - and when they are not sick they get paid for the illness - and when they are not ill - they get paid for being well? Where is the sense in being paid twice in eccense for a day worked? AND to accumulate a fund that is in the millions for labour not done ---Now look...at the sudden shit in Mayor Miller of Toronto - an over privledged socialist lawyer - a walking oxymoron...now this guy suddenly is getting on the band wagon---with unions being smashed all over the pace - now he is going to cross the proverbial floor to the other side...These lefties have no loyality - they go where they think the power might be - and to drink like parasitic blood suckers - evern if it means walking from the left to the right....he's learning ---all the nasty tricks---self survival first - the people second.

[Riverwind]

Most union members pay there own benefits by paying union dues like dental, health, education.

The problem with unions are work rules and absurd benefits like banked sick days. Unions would actually be tolerable if they limited their demands to straight cash and funded their pensions themselves with deductions from a (presumably higher) pay check.

The most blantent example of union excess via work rules was a small suburb in Montreal which was forced to either hire 18 more workers or cut services after dealgamation. The reason was algamation forced the CUPE agreement on them which prevented them from having the same person do multiple part time tasks - something they did for years with no complaints from the workers involved.

[Oleg Bach]

There is a western trend based in global competative bull crap --- that all western labour must be brought to it's knees and work for minimum wage and if possible less - that the quality of western life must come down so as our labour market can be "competative" with the fish head soup eaters in China and other such third world nations - China IS a third world nation ----what gets me is that we have an elite forming that will not make such concessions - but expect the common guy to work and live like a rat.

[Craig1]

The problem with unions are work rules and absurd benefits like banked sick days. Unions would actually be tolerable if they limited their demands to straight cash and funded their pensions themselves with deductions from a (presumably higher) pay check.

The most blantent example of union excess via work rules was a small suburb in Montreal which was forced to either hire 18 more workers or cut services after dealgamation. The reason was algamation forced the CUPE agreement on them which prevented them from having the same person do multiple part time tasks - something they did for years with no complaints from the workers involved.

I agree with you to some extent but to paint all unions all with the same brush is not fair. I can't say much with what is happening in Toronto or Montreal for that matter but I do know we have become a Nanny state self reliant on everyone else to do our dirty work for us, if you don't want to do the dirty work then your gonna pay through the nose for it. As example in Edmonton we pay a garbage fee of $30/ month, now me and my dad did this we took the utility trailer and loaded it to the rim with our garbage and all the neghbors garbage took it to the dump ourselves and it cost $6-$10 including the gas when if the city would have done it would have cost well over $100. City workers are making $30/hour to cutt grass when if everyone would chip in and took the extra 10 minutes to trim outside your yard cost you maybe .50 cents in gas.

AT 16 i can rebuilt a engine in a car for $400 or take it to the mechanic and he will charge $2600 point is society has become lazzy, they don't want to contribute, so your going to be forced to pay through the nose for it. To blame unions or the workers to do your dirty work is not fair, pull your own weight and do something about it. But nobody will do that its way to easy to sit back and complain your not getting everything for free.

[Peter F]

The problem with unions are work rules and absurd benefits like banked sick days. Unions would actually be tolerable if they limited their demands to straight cash and funded their pensions themselves with deductions from a (presumably higher) pay check.

Whats absurd about banked sick days? I love the idea! I wantsomothat!

The most blantent example of union excess via work rules was a small suburb in Montreal which was forced to either hire 18 more workers or cut services after dealgamation. The reason was algamation forced the CUPE agreement on them which prevented them from having the same person do multiple part time tasks - something they did for years with no complaints from the workers involved.

What? Management was again 'forced' to observe a negotiated contract? Shocking! There aughta be a law...

[Riverwind]

To blame unions or the workers to do your dirty work is not fair, pull your own weight and do something about it. But nobody will do that its way to easy to sit back and complain your not getting everything for free.

The problem is the union monopoly that distorts the free market. I am sure there are plently of people who would pick up toronto's trash for a lot less that what the current workers are paid. The trouble is the union laws make it impossible for governments to negotiate the price that the market will bear. Private companies don't have that problem because they can usually outsource or shutdown operations if the union gets unreasonable.

[Oleg Bach]

Why would Miller of Toronto give himself and his friends a raise - but claw back money form the unions - I guess the thankless Miller does not need the union vote to get back in office - I guarentee you that this opportunist will not run again.

[Smallc]

I don't know...but I do know that in Toronto a union is about to make my vacation much less enjoyable....it's a shame really.

[Riverwind]

Whats absurd about banked sick days? I love the idea! I wantsomothat!

Of course. I suppose you would like get paid 100K a year to watch TV too but that does mean it is reasonable for you expect other people to pay for it.

What? Management was again 'forced' to observe a negotiated contract? Shocking! There aughta be a law...

There are no free negotiations in government union contracts. There should be an end to all outsourcing restrictions and government unions should be required to compete with the private sector when it comes to bidding on tax payer funded work. Edited June 23, 2009 by Riverwind

[Oleg Bach]

Seeing the nation is fully privatized by a few - must be wonderful for all these movers and shakers to have climbed so high in their old age --- to become so successful with years of hostile take overs and mergers - that now they have reached the top----to own a company - the biggest - CANADA INCORPORTED..... next step go international - and strive to control the planet - there is no end to earthly ambition - and there is no place for mercy.

[Craig1]

Of course. I suppose you would like get paid 100K a year to watch TV too but that does mean it is reasonable for you expect other people to pay for it.

There are no free negotiations in government union contracts. There should be an end to all outsourcing restrictions and government unions should be required to compete with the private sector when it comes to bidding on tax payer funded work.

You can. out west here in Alberta we have many anti union laws, in fact it is illegal for a union to strike in this province. Last summer or the summer before , i cant remember but trade unions were not entitled to negotiate a contract but was given to the Arbitrator of the province to make its own deal and all workers were forced back to work or face a $1 million/day fine and time in jail. If you think it is a problem you need to take it up with your politicians, your vote dictates. But I do suspect out east the majority of voters are in favor of siding withy the unions, but legally the province can do what they want.

[Michael Hardner]

Auguste,

I believe tango hit the bullseye with this excellent post, which I will quote in full (only to save you from having to go to another page):

I tend to see data about change over time as a reflection of changing times, trends, demographics, and human evolution.

One way to look at it is this:

Proportionately more women than men are opting for unionized public service, which provides decent pay and relative security that stabilize the family and accommodate their growing families (job flexibility/transfers, maternity leaves, benefits, etc.).

Proportionately more men than women are opting for the riskier but potentially more lucrative private sector, because they can afford to take the risks as their family is stabilized by the wife's income and benefits.

However, another way might be that it is not a social development at all, but simply a reflection of the huge losses in the largely male and largely unionized manufacturing sector.

It's more likely though that it is a combination of all of these things as well as the aging of the work force: The baby-boom bulge is now about 45 years old. This age demographic, for example, accounts for increases in staffing the health sector. The mini-boomers may account for some education increases, but the fact is that more students are staying in school longer, especially attending post-secondary, than in past generations.

As the new technologies and other fledgling new industries stabilize, I predict we will see the return of unionization there.

I think my main point is this: These are not necessarily linear trends that will continue on their present path. Rather, they are trends that reflect the current demographic and production influences, and will change as these factors change.

I'd have to have the raw data itself to analyze these contributing factors. biggrin.gif

Btw, August: Do you know what the biggest money waster in the public service is?

It's politics. Specifically, political regime changes after elections.

First, all the logos and letterheads are replaced and the old ones sent ... somewhere, I hope for recycling. We're not allowed to recycle them ourselves - eg, using them for draft printing. All old paper is collected. Do you know how much it costs to replace all the paper in the public sector? Neither do I but it is friggen HUGE!

Second, armies of wet-behind-the-ears political party hacks descend upon the public service, given 'special' positions (ie NEW positions, new money) where they strike fear into every level of the bureaucracy, right to the top. Their job is to root out the old regime from among the staff - those who do not conform to the new politics.

Third, most or all projects-in-progress are shelved (no matter how many years they were in development or how much money has been spent on them) until they can be 'reviewed and evaluated' in the new political context.

Fourth ... After all the party hacks report to the political masters, to whom they have direct access, then the restructuring begins. (hack and slash and promote the brown-nosers, etc.) ka-ching!

Then comes visioning and missioning and action planning ... and then all the new policies, retraining, re-supplying ... and throwing out the babies with the bathwater en masse and starting all over again to replace them.

How many times have I been through this? Don't even ask ... and that's only one level of government.

... I could go on and on and on ... but I think you get a small glimpse of the picture.

In other words, unions do not account for public sector 'bloating' or 'waste': Politics does.

There's no secret to why unions are an absolute necessity in the public sector: If we didn't have union protection and 'bumping rights', after every election the entire public service would be replaced by political hacks and cronies.

I kid you not.

Politicians and politics are the worst managers of the organizations that provide our services. To them "management" is 100% about knee-jerk reactions. As such, working for these organizations can be the most demoralizing waste of time there is.

I have written here before about spinning government service off into service depots with a multi-party board-of-directors at arm's length from day-to-day politics. This would work something like a crown corp, but my hope would be that conservative presence on the board would help make the organizations a little more cost-conscious. ( They're good like that. )

There's no reason why sprawling organizations like EI should be run by politicians when their policies don't need to change drastically but once in awhile. There's something called 'Service Canada' that the Conservatives seem to be moving towards. If they can make that organization work efficiently, then Canada will be on its way to having the holy grail of social services - universal, generous, and yet cheap and efficiently run.

If they made that work, I might even be tempted to vote conservative. What a thought.

[Peter F]

WTF? Government managers are more abusive of women than private managers?

More abusive? No, I doubt that. Equally abusive - yes. But perhaps you are right and abuse has nothing to do with women in unions. Argus' post above explained why more women are in public sector unions than private - ease of unionizing

Peter F, sorry to be impolite but you are utterly clueless, and your comment about women is just as meaningless.

Not a problem.

Apparently, Canadian union organizers have astutely chosen employers (taxpayers) with deep pockets - so deep, that they go to jail if they don't pay. If you can't pay Mastercard or Visa, you are merely bankrupt; if you can't pay your taxes, you go go to jail.

Organizing a private workplace is alot more difficult than organizing a government workplace. In fact the difference is huge for a very simple reason: Governments require union representation for nearly all non-management employee's. The ease of getting union representation in a government workplace will account for why the majority of government employee's are unionized. The unions never have to fight card-signing campains to unionize a government workplace. Since over 50% of government employee's are female and the government demands they have a union to represent them, Argus concisely explained why that was and why that was not the wierdness you thought it was.

Try organizing Visa or Mastercard workers sometime and see how easy it is. It isn't easy at all but is very stressfull and employee organizers are often the subject of managerial harrassment to the point of quiting. As far as organizing public sector unions as compared to organizing private sector unions, The two are entirely different animals.

Peter F, it seems to me that you have no idea what unions are for. If you believe that unions defend ordinary employees against greedy, rapacious private corporations, then why are Canadian unions increasingly (solely) concentrated in the public sector? Are Canadian governments rapacious and greedy?

Governments require unionized employee's. It makes things soooooo much easier. Surely you don't believe that each government employee should negotiate their own contract? And then expect Treasury Board to control employment costs?

Or maybe, Peter F, the unions have a different agenda, nothing to do with protecting victims or the weak. Why are Canadian unions increasingly associated with the public sector? As Willie Sutton famously said, "That's where the money is."

Governments require unions, August. Can you imagine? each manager signing seperate employment contrats with each employee? The system would be rife with corruption! Governments require unions - for the sake of the nation and the budget!

Also, I reject your notion that unions only want employee's money. To be sure there are many corrupt unions but not all unions are corrupt . I'd say most of them arn't. But then I have nothing to back that up as you have nothing to back up unions are only in it for money horseshit.

The difference between me and you is you think money motivates everything and I dont.

[Oleg Bach]

Be careful what you wish for - once you rid yourselves of the unions - someone will come and degrade you next - You are not that high up on the food chain! People forget that if you are disloyal to your own and those that you believe to be lower than you - the powers that be will say this when you expect favour - "You betrayed your own - how can we possibly trust you?" There will be no reward from the proverbial dragon for those the pledge allegence though betrayal.

[Remiel]

While I think that some things about unions should perhaps be rethought, I am against viscious union-busting. Unions are no more unnatural to a free market than a corporation is.

[Oleg Bach]

While I think that some things about unions should perhaps be rethought, I am against viscious union-busting. Unions are no more unnatural to a free market than a corporation is.

Huge corporations are unions.

[Peter F]

Of course. I suppose you would like get paid 100K a year to watch TV too but that does mean it is reasonable for you expect other people to pay for it.

Thus bargaining.

There are no free negotiations in government union contracts. There should be an end to all outsourcing restrictions and government unions should be required to compete with the private sector when it comes to bidding on tax payer funded work.

Huh? No free negotiations? Well, the feds passed C-10 so it seems you're right.

Government unions competeing with private sector on tax payer funded work? Since when is it the unions job to do the job of management? Unions, Riverwind, have SFA to say about how work is organized. Thats managements department. Unions have absolutely noting - nada - to say about tax payer funded work. Whereever did you get the cockamamy idea that they do?

[Craig1]

Be careful what you wish for - once you rid yourselves of the unions - someone will come and degrade you next - You are not that high up on the food chain! People forget that if you are disloyal to your own and those that you believe to be lower than you - the powers that be will say this when you expect favour - "You betrayed your own - how can we possibly trust you?" There will be no reward from the proverbial dragon for those the pledge allegence though betrayal.

So true! but I think it's to late by 2012 it is said corperates will be allowed to bring "Mobilized" workers into Canada when China or India pumps out 1000 times more qualified workers, who will work for allot cheaper what makes you think they won't walk in and take your jobs. You can find this on the Government of Canada's website signed by a long list of global corperations. People are going to pray to be a union member you only have strength in solidaridy.

[capricorn]

Again from that inside view I can tell you that there is a very hectic political aspect to the union movement. Union dues only go one direction and that is up, meanwhile many are concerned with how that money is spent.

I worked for the Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC) which has approx. 165,000 members. In the 80s the feds suspended collective bargaining for federal workers. In it's budget, the PSAC had set aside $2M to cover 3 years of their collective bargaining activities. Of course, those funds were part of the dues paid by the union's membership. Since no collective bargaining was to take place, a decision had to be made what to do with the $2M. You'd think the PSAC would have returned the unused money to the members. No. The PSAC national board of directors decided to allocate the whole pot in campaigns for and against specific federal politicians in the upcoming election campaign.

The PSAC consistently uses members' dues for political activism. Here's an example from the October 2008 election.

In the National Capital Region, PSAC supports

candidates who support workers

OTTAWA – The Public Service Alliance of Canada in the National Capital Region (PSAC-

NCR) believes its members should support the following candidates:

In Ontario:

 Paul Dewar, New Democratic Party, Ottawa-Centre;

 Marc Godbout, Liberal, Ottawa-Orléans;

 Marlene Rivier, NDP, Ottawa-Ouest-Nepean;

 Dan Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry-Prescott-Russell;

 Trevor Haché, NDP, Ottawa-Vanier.

In the Outaouais:

 Richard Nadeau, Bloc Québécois, Gatineau;

 Pierre Ducasse, NDP, Hull-Aylmer;

 Céline Brault, NDP, Pontiac;

 Mario Laframboise, Bloc Québécois, Argenteuil-Mirabel-Papineau

"We hope that the 54,000 members living in the Region will take these recommendations into

account when they go out and vote,” said Maria Fitzpatrick, the Regional Executive Vice-

President of the PSAC-NCR. “We respect the intelligence of our members, and we are

passing on these recommendations to them with all humility. We are not giving any orders,

and we are supporting these candidates from a union perspective. Furthermore, this support

does take into consideration the support these candidates have shown for a strong public

sector, made of permanent employees, with the means to provide quality public services."

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:y1nhOZ...lient=firefox-a

If the PSAC stuck to its core responsibilities as a bargaining agent, union dues could be slashed in half. Of course, that would mean only half of the elected officers and staff would be required to operate.

[Oleg Bach]

They want the individual to stand helpless and alone - vulnerable and compliant...you see this with the dismantling of the tradtional family - the rift between the sexes..the disloyaly between mother and child - brother and sister ---this is engineered - family was solidarity - and a union was family in a sense -- the family will be gone - the union will be gone - and you will be living in a nice little hole in the wall. Then all of you will know - that you were taken prisoner and are a prisoner not of the government - but by those in the private sphere - the old corporates who dream of being gods by puttiing us through this slowly engineered process, that in the ends leads to something worse than slavery - hell on earth.