Why many Canadian people have inaccurate knowledge of China

[bjre]

Many Canadians have false knowledge of China.

That is because they are constantly exposed in bias information about that country.

If China is so worse, how they achieve the success to make the economy to the world's 3rd largest in 30 years.

Is there any other country can do this?

So why is it that this social workers opinion is valid but not the opinion of other social workers? Is it solely because this one happens to agree with you at least in some aspects? I thought all social workers were “evil” as you put it and only in it for the money, that they didn't care about children. Why is Brad McKenzie different?

WIP you're wasting your breath on bjre, he will site endless sources of dubious quality and any sources you site, regardless of any validity that they have will be rationalized away as irrelevant because they don’t coincide with his view. Rather than address the content he calls into question the source as if that somehow proves his point, because he, the ultimate authority has deemed it so. You’re trying to reason with someone who denies the atrocities of Tianamen square. While wiki isn’t always the most reliable this particular article sites 117 separate sources, all of which I’m sure bjre will call into question as CIA/FED sources thereby discounting their viability or validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Squ...rotests_of_1989

This is someone who was raised by an authoritarian society and is no doubt running his own home in an authoritarian manner. He thinks there are absolutely no problems whatsoever with the PRC. What baffles us all is why if China is such a Utopia on earth, he chooses to stay in Canada and harangue us. Maybe the solution is to send the PLA after CAS, I’m certain that would fix all our problems.

Yet another mind controlled by western media.

1. Nobody die 20 years ago in Tienanmen square. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/04/wo...ry5061672.shtml

2. There are several hundred death in the protest in street and far away from the square due to riot that is financially supported by western organizations such as CIA, if they did not give money and tent, the protest could end in May, 1989. That is part of the war so called color revolution. So CIA is the murder.

3. After Canadian politician blame China, Dudley George was killed during a police raid to remove native protesters from Ipperwash Provincial Park on Sept. 6, 1995. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...30?hub=Specials

4. Before that US army goes into Campus killed peaceful student protesters. ( http://may41970.com/allabout.htm )

5. Why I said your mind has been controlled, see this video:

This book: http://www.amazon.com/Web-Debt-Shocking-Tr...9846&sr=8-1

Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth about Our Money System -- the Banking Scheme That Is Bankrupting Us and How We Can Break Free

By Ellen Hodgson Brown, Published by Ellen Brown, 2007

Chapter 13 - Witches' Coven, Page 132:

"In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding, and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press....They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers. An agreement was reached; the policy of the papers was bought, to be paid for by the month; an editor was furnished for each paper to properly supervise and edit information regarding the questions of preparedness, militarism, financial policies, and other things of national and international nature considered vital to the interests of the purchasers."

(U.S. Congressman Oscar Callaway, 1917)

By 1983, according to Dean Ben Bagdikian in the "The Media Monopoly", fifty corporations owned half or more of the media business. By 2000, that number was down to six corporations, with directorates interlocked with each other and with major commercial banks. (Norman Solomon, "Break up Microsoft? ... Then How About the Media 'Big Six?'" The Free Press (April 27, 2000)

Edited June 17, 2009 by bjre

[bush_cheney2004]

Is there any other country can do this?

Yes....Japan did it in 20 years....with far fewer people!

[Moonbox]

If China is so worse, how they achieve the success to make the economy to the world's 3rd largest in 30 years.

Is there any other country can do this?

It's because China gave up strict communism and allowed the capitalists in. It SHOULD be the 1st largest economy in the world, because over 1 billion people live there, but it's not because of its government.

1. Nobody die 20 years ago in Tienanmen square.

According to the Chinese government. According to everybody else a lot of people died there.

Before that US army goes into Campus killed peaceful student protesters.

No wait...it was SPACE ALIENS.

I have nothing wrong to say about the Chinese people, especially the ones who have moved to Canada. I have dated Chinese girls when I was younger and they were smart and fun. China, the country, on the other hand, is a nasty government and is holding back the people very badly. It's like North Korea.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Moonbox

[Riverwind]

1. Nobody die 20 years ago in Tienanmen square.

ROTFL. Even the Chinese government admits that people died. They just try to minimize the number of deaths and refuse to say who actually died.

Western governments do bad things. But the difference is those things are ultimately exposed by the media and truth comes out. Often rules are put in place to prevent it from happening in again. In China the government never admits any wrong doing and jails anyone brave enought to try and bring those wrong doings to light. What this means is the Chinese government is inherently untrustworthy.

If you really want people to "understand" China you should be telling the Chinese government to stop jailing dissendents and stop trying to control what stories the media covers.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why do folks always want to tell China what to do? 5000 years of history givers them a world view like we can only hope to achieve. Leave China be, don't mess with them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why do folks always want to tell China what to do? 5000 years of history givers them a world view like we can only hope to achieve. Leave China be, don't mess with them.

Hmmm....Japan would have liked this idea very much in 1937.

How many Canadian and American immigrants in China?

[Dave_ON]

Many Canadians have false knowledge of China.

That is because they are constantly exposed in bias information about that country.

If China is so worse, how they achieve the success to make the economy to the world's 3rd largest in 30 years.

Is there any other country can do this?

Yet another mind controlled by western media.

1. Nobody die 20 years ago in Tienanmen square. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/04/wo...ry5061672.shtml

2. There are several hundred death in the protest in street and far away from the square due to riot that is financially supported by western organizations such as CIA, if they did not give money and tent, the protest could end in May, 1989. That is part of the war so called color revolution. So CIA is the murder.

3. After Canadian politician blame China, Dudley George was killed during a police raid to remove native protesters from Ipperwash Provincial Park on Sept. 6, 1995. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...30?hub=Specials

4. Before that US army goes into Campus killed peaceful student protesters. ( http://may41970.com/allabout.htm )

5. Why I said your mind has been controlled, see this video:

This book: http://www.amazon.com/Web-Debt-Shocking-Tr...9846&sr=8-1

Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth about Our Money System -- the Banking Scheme That Is Bankrupting Us and How We Can Break Free

By Ellen Hodgson Brown, Published by Ellen Brown, 2007

Chapter 13 - Witches' Coven, Page 132:

Not sure why I'm even bothering but here goes. This further demonstrates my point. You don't engage in debate you pontificate and harangue. You don't address the concerns and points of others you dismiss them as if saying they are from the CIA somehow discredits them.

The PRC has a great deal of control over absolutely everything in China. Tiananmen Square is a prime example of this. After the incident ALL foreign media was barred from the country. Only the PRC press was given access to the area. This should come as no surprise given that present day China's roots stem from a rather sadistic terrorist Chairmen Mao Zedong. Here's an excerpt of an article that demonstrates the kind and caring nature of China circa 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_Mao

This article sites 56 sources all of which you will not read or you will dismiss them outright per your usual "debating" methodology.

Mao's authoritative domination, especially that of the military force, was challenged by the Jiangxi branch of the CPC and military officers. Mao's opponents, among whom the most prominent was Li Wenlin, the founder of the CPC's branch and Red Army in Jiangxi, were against Mao's land policies and proposals to reform the local party branch and army leadership. Mao reacted first by accusing the opponents of opportunism and kulakism and then set off a series of systematic suppressions of them.[11] It is reported that horrible forms of torture and killing took place. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday claim that victims were subjected to a red-hot gun-rod being rammed into the anus and that there were many cases of cutting open the stomach and scooping out the heart.[12] The estimated number of the victims amounted to several thousands and could be as high as 186,000.[13] Critics accuse Mao's authority in Jiangxi of being secured and reassured through the revolutionary terrorism, or red terrorism.

Yes what other country indeed could do such a thing? You see bjre the difference between you and most Canadians is we can admit there are problems with our society and work towards fixing them. You have even pointed out many of these issues, though it a somewhat exacerbated manner. You however, cannot and are in denial that there are any problems at all in China or that the government of China has EVER done anything wrong. I’m not talking small mistakes; I mean downright “evil”. So you see it is very difficult to take anything you say or post seriously until you can admit that China has a very bloody, ugly and dark recent history and that current circumstances are little better. If they were I'm certain you wouldn't still be living in Canada despite all your protestations that we as a nation are so very "evil" or "controlled" by the media. You've said before you came to Canada because you were "lied" to by immigration lawyers who were only interested in money. Well you've said before you make $100,000.00 a year so I'm certain you can afford to move back to China by now. Why is it you insist on languishing in what must be absolute misery with us mindless, media controlled slaves, when the verdant and liberated fields of China await you?

It's ok to be proud of the nation you came from and to bring part of that culture with you and to celebrate it. It is entirely another to put it first over your new home or to only offer non constructive criticism. Frankly we don't want or need people who have no interest in working toward a better society living here. If you're not going to contribute, than I'm certain you can catch the first flight out.

[Argus]

Many Canadians have false knowledge of China.

Many Chinese have false knowledge about China too - because they were raised in a brutal dictatorship which does not have a free press or free speech.

If China is so worse, how they achieve the success to make the economy to the world's 3rd largest in 30 years.

Is there any other country can do this?

China is the largest country in the world. Why should it not have the third largest economy?

Actually, it should have the largest economy, but it doesn't.

In any event, China is such a wonderful place, you really should go back there. I assure you we won't miss you.

[Argus]

Why do folks always want to tell China what to do? 5000 years of history givers them a world view like we can only hope to achieve. Leave China be, don't mess with them.

I think that 5000 years of history cliche is just nonsense. Let's examine it. In 5000 years, how far did China progress, socially, culturally or scientifically? It went nowhere, and was giong nowhere, and had it not had any interraction with the west would probably still be nowhere. Five thousand years of millions of powerless, illiterate serfs being pushed around by strutting warlords is not something to give credence to the view the Chinese are somehow more knowledeable about ANYTHING, let alone a world view. China, after all, has always been extremely insular. They never had anything to do with the world until the world came calling and smacked them with a two by four.

[Oleg Bach]

What's there to know about China - all the P R in the world will not change the fact that they have a nation that literally eats it's own - and that human rights don't exist -

[Dave_ON]

I think that 5000 years of history cliche is just nonsense. Let's examine it. In 5000 years, how far did China progress, socially, culturally or scientifically? It went nowhere, and was giong nowhere, and had it not had any interraction with the west would probably still be nowhere. Five thousand years of millions of powerless, illiterate serfs being pushed around by strutting warlords is not something to give credence to the view the Chinese are somehow more knowledeable about ANYTHING, let alone a world view. China, after all, has always been extremely insular. They never had anything to do with the world until the world came calling and smacked them with a two by four.

Indeed a long history is nothing short of resting on laurels. Iraq/Iran are another prime example of this 10,000 years of history starting in Sumer and where are they now? Iran is still under an islamic tyrany and Iraq is emerging from a secular one and likely to return to some other form of tyrany when the Americans pull out.

[ToadBrother]

ROTFL. Even the Chinese government admits that people died. They just try to minimize the number of deaths and refuse to say who actually died.

China has yet to come clean on the number of deaths from the Great Leap Forward, possibly the largest government-created mass starvation in the history of our species. Tienanmen Square is big because, as Roger Waters put it they "died on TV".

Western governments do bad things. But the difference is those things are ultimately exposed by the media and truth comes out. Often rules are put in place to prevent it from happening in again. In China the government never admits any wrong doing and jails anyone brave enought to try and bring those wrong doings to light. What this means is the Chinese government is inherently untrustworthy.

If you really want people to "understand" China you should be telling the Chinese government to stop jailing dissendents and stop trying to control what stories the media covers.

The whole point of our kind of government is that a free press can, if it can figure out a way, bust the doors open. That's why I found the reaction of some Tory supporters to CTV journalists reading the secret Chalk River report so disturbing. To my mind, CTV did what democracy requires of it, that most sacred of duties in a free society, and that's the power to publish things that governments would rather the press didn't.

And that's the difference between us and China. In China, something like the Oka affair or the Kent State shootings would have been buried, or at the very least only the official account would be published, absolving the government of all wrongdoing and placing the blame squarely on the the protesters. In the West, whether the government and the police like it or not, the truth will out in the end. We have independent (to one extent or another) judiciaries which can rule against the state, we have a free press with a long tradition of not disappearing into the bowels of state prisons for reporting things the way they really happened. It's not perfect, and sometimes the system shortcircuits (witness the unmitigated support for George W. Bush for a few years after 9-11), but all in all, it's an apples and oranges situation.

When the Chinese press can even mention the 1989 crackdown at Tienanmen without fear of censorship or much worse, then supporters of China can rail against harsh police tactics in the States and Canada. Until then, there's no comparison, because our system isn't just about preventing abuses, but about forcing abuses into the open, and that's the key difference, and right now it's a vast gulf.

[ToadBrother]

Indeed a long history is nothing short of resting on laurels. Iraq/Iran are another prime example of this 10,000 years of history starting in Sumer and where are they now? Iran is still under an islamic tyrany and Iraq is emerging from a secular one and likely to return to some other form of tyrany when the Americans pull out.

I don't think comparing the Mesopotamian and Irano-Persian civilizations to China is quite fair. In the case of Iran and Iraq, those countries have not really witnessed a cultural continuum. Certainly some aspects of the most ancient civilizations in the region have survived (ie. Marsh Arabs in Iraq and the trappings of the now-defunct Iranian monarchy), but China, despite some short-term disruptions (the Mongol and Manchurian seizures, the rise of the Nationalists), does have a long, *continuous* cultural history, where the invaders and usurpers generally adopting, to a great extent, the long traditions. The biggest break was Mao, and as China pushes forward, his influence is steadily decreasing (China is no longer a Communist state in any meaningful sense).

[Smallc]

because our system isn't just about preventing abuses, but about forcing abuses into the open, and that's the key difference, and right now it's a vast gulf.

Exactly. So many people seem to forget this. When they see allegations and investigations and cinvictions of people in governmenta and politics they take it as a sign that the system is failing. The truth is, the system is working perfectly when these things happen.

[g_bambino]

Why is this thread in the federal politics of Canada section?

[Dave_ON]

I don't think comparing the Mesopotamian and Irano-Persian civilizations to China is quite fair. In the case of Iran and Iraq, those countries have not really witnessed a cultural continuum. Certainly some aspects of the most ancient civilizations in the region have survived (ie. Marsh Arabs in Iraq and the trappings of the now-defunct Iranian monarchy), but China, despite some short-term disruptions (the Mongol and Manchurian seizures, the rise of the Nationalists), does have a long, *continuous* cultural history, where the invaders and usurpers generally adopting, to a great extent, the long traditions. The biggest break was Mao, and as China pushes forward, his influence is steadily decreasing (China is no longer a Communist state in any meaningful sense).

Fair enough, though I would postulate that the only reason they were able to maintain this contiguous history is due to its remote location and was considered the end of the world in ancient times. They were very far away from the "world powers" of the day. The other issue with Mesopotamian culture of course is how frequently it changed hands, Persians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and finally the Ottoman Turks.

I would further speculate that this geographical and self inflicted cultural isolation has largely contributed to their stunted cultural growth. This has caused the need for them to play "catch-up" in past 20 years and has given them the appearance of rapid growth. This growth is not indigenous to their culture and heretofore they haven’t done anything particularly new or innovative. They’ve merely copied the cultural achievements of largely western cultures, namely that of the US

[bush_cheney2004]

... It's not perfect, and sometimes the system shortcircuits (witness the unmitigated support for George W. Bush for a few years after 9-11), but all in all, it's an apples and oranges situation....

The "system" did not short circuit....it functioned just as designed (constitution). Same as the circus we saw when Parliament was "proroqued" with Mommy's permission.

[ToadBrother]

Fair enough, though I would postulate that the only reason they were able to maintain this contiguous history is due to its remote location and was considered the end of the world in ancient times. They were very far away from the "world powers" of the day. The other issue with Mesopotamian culture of course is how frequently it changed hands, Persians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and finally the Ottoman Turks.

They got overrun by the Mongols just like damned near everyone else from Pacific to the Urals.

I would further speculate that this geographical and self inflicted cultural isolation has largely contributed to their stunted cultural growth. This has caused the need for them to play "catch-up" in past 20 years and has given them the appearance of rapid growth. This growth is not indigenous to their culture and heretofore they haven’t done anything particularly new or innovative. They’ve merely copied the cultural achievements of largely western cultures, namely that of the US

Huh? During the Middle Ages, China was far more advanced than Europe. What seems to have happened in the 15-17th centuries was a withdrawal, to be sure, mostly caused by a highly conservative central government. The dying Empire did try to react, but ran out of time, and it was the Nationalists, and later the Communists, that completed the modernization process. But let's always remember here that a lot of those Western "advances" were in fact Chinese in origin.

I think you need to learn a good deal more about China. It's influence on the world stage has been enormous since ancient times. Did you know, for instance, that the outflow of silver after the British started selling opium in China, lead to a worldwide depression in silver prices? China has been a much bigger player than you imagine. The Romans knew it, which is why they sent trade delegations to China.

[ToadBrother]

The "system" did not short circuit....it functioned just as designed (constitution). Same as the circus we saw when Parliament was "proroqued" with Mommy's permission.

I'm not talking about the "system" in a strictly Constitutional aspect. I'm talking about the press basically handling Bush with kid gloves and not doing its job of holding governments to account even during times of national trauma. In the end, the truth did come out, but for a while, it seemed that the US press had an all-too friendly relationship with the Administration.

But these things are aberrations, in general. "Everything's okay, nothing to worry about" doesn't sell papers nearly as well as "Everything's screwed up, worry a lot!", so the press has a practically Darwinian need to find what politicians and bureaucrats don't want them to find.

[Oleg Bach]

China is so far racially removed from the Caucasians - that racism and contempt will always exist - we can not be fully trusted - nor are they trustworthy - Chinas dream is to be the only race on earth - so far so good ----they protect their clan on mass - we don't protect our mass...we are a push over in their eyes.

[ToadBrother]

China is so far racially removed from the Caucasians - that racism and contempt will always exist - we can not be fully trusted - nor are they trustworthy - Chinas dream is to be the only race on earth - so far so good ----they protect their clan on mass - we don't protect our mass...we are a push over in their eyes.

Can you actually cite any evidence that China dreams of being the only race on Earth? What a moronic statement.

[Dave_ON]

They got overrun by the Mongols just like damned near everyone else from Pacific to the Urals.

Huh? During the Middle Ages, China was far more advanced than Europe. What seems to have happened in the 15-17th centuries was a withdrawal, to be sure, mostly caused by a highly conservative central government. The dying Empire did try to react, but ran out of time, and it was the Nationalists, and later the Communists, that completed the modernization process. But let's always remember here that a lot of those Western "advances" were in fact Chinese in origin.

I think you need to learn a good deal more about China. It's influence on the world stage has been enormous since ancient times. Did you know, for instance, that the outflow of silver after the British started selling opium in China, lead to a worldwide depression in silver prices? China has been a much bigger player than you imagine. The Romans knew it, which is why they sent trade delegations to China.

I was largely referring to modern times, specifically the last 100 years or so. The only significant modern contribution was gun powder which had a wholly different application in China. While you are quite correct that the Romans had contact with the Chinese, due in large part to Roman demand for Seres (Chinese) silk this was generally conducted via Parthian intermediaries. The direct contact between the two cultures was minimal at best due in large part to the vast distance between their capitals.

I don't think it's fair at all to say that Western "advances" were Chinese in origin. Most of our western advances are actually Greek or Roman in origin. Mathematics, Architecture, our written language, science all of these are based on Greco-Roman, not Sino Asian principals. Did western culture suffer some setbacks? Of course it's called the dark ages for a reason; this was due in large part to the authoritarian Roman Catholic Church. But then the Renaissance happened and Western culture really began to bloom. The impact of the Greco-Roman empire on modern western culture cannot even begin to be compared to the relatively minor impact of Ancient to Middle Ages China.

I’m not saying that China wasn’t a world power during Roman times, but I think you’re overselling the impact it has had on western cultural advancement. China may have been ahead of the west in the dark ages, but in the years that followed the west left them in the dust.

[ToadBrother]

I was largely referring to modern times, specifically the last 100 years or so. The only significant modern contribution was gun powder which had a wholly different application in China. While you are quite correct that the Romans had contact with the Chinese, due in large part to Roman demand for Seres (Chinese) silk this was generally conducted via Parthian intermediaries. The direct contact between the two cultures was minimal at best due in large part to the vast distance between their capitals.

Direct contact, yes, indirect contact very much so. As to gun powder, the Mongols had firearms and cannon, though the Europeans perfected the technologies.

I don't think it's fair at all to say that Western "advances" were Chinese in origin.

Some advances certainly were. There was considerably more give and take than Victorian historians were willing to admit.

Most of our western advances are actually Greek or Roman in origin. Mathematics, Architecture, our written language, science all of these are based on Greco-Roman, not Sino Asian principals.

Actually, our written language owe much more to the Egyptian and Sumero-Akkadian cultures. Architecture and a fair chunk of mathematics is owed to the Greeks and Romans, but both the Greeks and Romans basically borrowed and heavily modified Eastern Mediterranean Semitic script, which itself descended from Egypt and Mesopotomia.

Did western culture suffer some setbacks? Of course it's called the dark ages for a reason; this was due in large part to the authoritarian Roman Catholic Church.

The Dark Ages weren't nearly as dark as later historians, particularly during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, made out. Those guys had a major chip on their shoulders as far as the capacities and learning of Medieval scholars and engineers. And the view that the Church somehow stymied development was discarded a long time ago.

But then the Renaissance happened and Western culture really began to bloom. The impact of the Greco-Roman empire on modern western culture cannot even begin to be compared to the relatively minor impact of Ancient to Middle Ages China.

I’m not saying that China wasn’t a world power during Roman times, but I think you’re overselling the impact it has had on western cultural advancement. China may have been ahead of the west in the dark ages, but in the years that followed the west left them in the dust.

For a few centuries. Prior to that, and even during Roman times, the Chinese state was a major power. It had its own flaws, to be sure, but it was hardly some strange place in the distance.

[Muddy]

China`s run with Mao killed more Chinese than the Japanese could in WW2. China is still a ruthless dictatorship and we should not have any truck with them until they allow real human rights. Remember just a couple of decades ago,Tinanemen Square where students were killed in mass by the Red Army just for protesting.

[Borg]

Many Canadians have false knowledge of China.

That is because they are constantly exposed in bias information about that country.

If China is so worse, how they achieve the success to make the economy to the world's 3rd largest in 30 years.

Is there any other country can do this?

Yet another mind controlled by western media.

1. Nobody die 20 years ago in Tienanmen square. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/04/wo...ry5061672.shtml

2. There are several hundred death in the protest in street and far away from the square due to riot that is financially supported by western organizations such as CIA, if they did not give money and tent, the protest could end in May, 1989. That is part of the war so called color revolution. So CIA is the murder.

3. After Canadian politician blame China, Dudley George was killed during a police raid to remove native protesters from Ipperwash Provincial Park on Sept. 6, 1995. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...30?hub=Specials

4. Before that US army goes into Campus killed peaceful student protesters. ( http://may41970.com/allabout.htm )

5. Why I said your mind has been controlled, see this video:

This book: http://www.amazon.com/Web-Debt-Shocking-Tr...9846&sr=8-1

Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth about Our Money System -- the Banking Scheme That Is Bankrupting Us and How We Can Break Free

By Ellen Hodgson Brown, Published by Ellen Brown, 2007

Chapter 13 - Witches' Coven, Page 132:

Canadians are breaking down doors in their rush to get to China

Yeah right!

Borg