Tuition Fees

[Cartman]

Cartman, to enter UBC this year a student will need 90% average coming out of high school. The fact that a student with 75% could perform at the university level but can't get in bothers me.

Could you provide me with a link or reference to this b/c this is what I got from the UBC web site. I realize standards change each year and from program to program.

http://students.ubc.ca/welcome/admission.cfm?page=bc

The admission average will be calculated on English 12 and the three additional approved provincially examinable Grade 12 courses or the equivalent. The courses used in the calculation will include those examinable Grade 12 courses required by the program for which the applicant seeks entry. A minimum average of 67% is required for admission to all programs. However, due to limited enrolment, a considerably higher average is required in most programs.

Regardless, several times I have referred to the problem of grade inflation. It exists in HS also. The reality is that many students entering university can hardly even write a simple essay. I am sorry, but this is the truth and, I have been at UBC.

University, first and foremost, is supposed to be a place for higher learning. Right now, it is not.

Let me tell you how it works.

For funding reasons, they let in too many students (with $$) who lack the intellectual potential to perform well and complete a graduate degree. These students will pay large amounts of $$ because tuition is too high and then many will drop out after 1st or 2nd year. All they have to show is debt and a poor academic record which will be there forever.

Those that lack the ability to perform well but actually get through the degree (partly due to grade inflation, taking Mickey Mouse classes etc) will have a degree not much better than a HS diploma, a large debt and will never get into a graduate program because surprise surprise, all of a sudden, talent is ESSENTIAL. My last TA required a minimum 3.9 to enter into her psych grad program.

As August has articulated already, "our universities have become bureaucratic behemoths where the student is a pesky intrusion". Unfortunately, I agree that this is increasingly becoming the case. I used to be able to recall student's names, but with hundreds and hundreds of faces in a crowd, this is becoming quite difficult. How is one supposed to learn in this environment?

Let me be clear. University admission should be based on academic talent alone. Currently, many (not all) students with the family funding do not have the necessary talent. They are degrading the prestige of the degrees for others with the talent. I would like to know how many talented students do not attend university b/c of financial barriers.

BTW...how the hell can some of you BC folks whine about admission averages and then turn around and embrace nutbars like Campbell who believe in giving less to universities?

[willy]

Cartmen, as you probably already know 67% is the mandatory minimum for all faculties at UBC. I think SFU is the same at 67%. The University of Alberta it is 65% and Calgary is the same.

The competition for spaces actually decides the real grade point average needed. The 90% I was referring to is the actual grade average over the five courses mentioned to get into business. Arts programs are in the mid 80s and science is also approaching 90%. No school out west admits kids with the minimum.

I got these numbers from kids I coach that are applying to school.

As for writing skills, they now have an essay component to enter SFU as well. We have many English as a second language students on the left coast and this is an issue for them. They are more than qualified to enter higher education in math and science but find English grammar a challenge; as I would find the French a challenge if I went to Laval.

Kids are the same, today as they were 40 years ago; the only difference is the technology. The technology may have affected the spelling (always having a spell checker) but not the thought. Today with the research tools on the internet and in schools the products undergrads produce are of better quality even if they need an editor.

I have worked with many bright teenagers in the last few years and they surprise me all the time. Hey I am not 30 yet, maybe I am biased.

BTW...how the hell can some of you BC folks whine about admission averages and then turn around and embrace nutbars like Campbell who believe in giving less to universities?

How so?

The BCLiberals added 12 000 seats to the provinces universities and turned the college in the interior into part of UBC. They lifted the freeze on tuition so universities could get more resources.

You show me a link to where they cut anything to universities. The fact is they have added. The demand is just outpacing the resources.

I am not whining. I am stating an opinion that I think we should expand our spaces to allow for more qualified people to enjoy the opportunity of a higher education. You seem to have a misguided notion that the standards are to low. That is just not so.

[takeanumber]

The University of Alberta it is 65% and Calgary is the same

False.

And that's just one out of many, many statements that you got wrong.

To answer your question, the 45yo grocer pays GST so that a poor person can go to university is because it's a Canadian value.

We help each other out.

And it's in the national best interest for there to be social mobility.

If you disagree, you're wrong. You're simply wrong. And you need to re-evaluate the reason why your a citizen.

[August1991]

To answer your question, the 45yo grocer pays GST so that a poor person can go to university is because it's a Canadian value.

My question was why a checkout clerk pays taxes to subsidize the university education of middle class/rich kids. About 25% of young Canadians go to university/college. Most of these kids come from well off families.

Like much of what passes for "socialism" in Canada, the poor and the rich subsidize the middle - after all, that's where the votes are.

We help each other out.

TalkNumb, you talk a hard line but you're an old softy at heart. A gullible one, apparently.

[takeanumber]

Sure, a lot of wealthy kids and middle class kids benefit from those taxes.

A lot of poor kids do to.

It's the price we pay for social mobility.

And yes, we help each other out.

It's one branch of collective security.

Just because you personally havn't benefited from the social security net directly, I'm sure you'd agree that it's a good thing for it to be there. Unless of course, you're view is myopic, in which case, may you fall through the cracks.

[willy]

takeanumber, I asume you are refering to the UofC numbers as most of the time you refer to UofC stuff.

What does it take to get into UofC this year?

I don't know. I will guess, Arts needs 75%.

Am I close?

I was only talking about policy minimums. If you say I am wrong, correct me.

[caesar]

Like much of what passes for "socialism" in Canada, the poor and the rich subsidize the middle - after all, that's where the votes are.

I sure don't see that certainly not in BC. The middle income earners end up getting stuck whether we have right wing party or left wing. The rich got and get to keep their tax decreases under Campbell; middle income workers and seniors had their taken back plus. "fair pharmacare" cost us an extra 1100 as seniors. Unions are getting attacked by this government and replaced by minimum wage workers or farmed out to foreigners.

The other side starts handing out too much to those who prefer not to carry their own weight and work. welfare recipients get benefits that the working poor do not.

[Cartman]

I don't know. I will guess, Arts needs 75%.

Am I close?

You may be correct but it is a trivial matter anyways because the key problem I keep mentioning is that grades are inflated today. 75% does not have the same meaning that it did likely when you went to school (I am making an assumption here of course). I am glad that universities are all addressing grade inflation and entrance requirements b/c it has been a problem for some time for all universities. Funding cuts have forced universities to accept as many people as possible and to try and obtain corporate funds (though I don't think this is working out).

People really, you would ALL be shocked at how many poor essays I read every semester (even second year students). Often ESL students are writing better than english students. It is really frustrating when you know these students are going to get burned later (when they try to apply for a grad. degree).

[maplesyrup]

Ontario low-income students to get learning grant

Nice to see.

[playfullfellow]

Well caesar, here in Alberta we refer to BC as "Bring Cash" but as you state repeatedly, we Albertans are just whinners. There is nothing wrong with low income kids getting a boost to help them get into university as long as they have the grades to warrant it. The argument will always return to "they get more than I so that is not fair and I don't like it". BC has seemingly proven that a tuition cap does not work because the universities just let in more foreign students because the caps did not include them. All university and college students should be there because they earned it, not because their folks can afford it. I may be biased but I feel that the young people coming out of college or university are dumber than my generation but our folks probably said the same about us. I say dumber because a lot of young people seem to have very few life skills anymore. They can not cook unless it is a complete meal bought at Safeway. They can not fix much around the house. They can't even grow a few veggies to enjoy. So what do we get? Well a lot of young people that can speak a lot of fancy words and type on a computer but really do not know very much about the harsh reality of life that you have to work to get what you want.

So as I stated before, there is nothing wrong with helping students as long as they deserve the help. At least I know that everything I have in life I have worked hard for. I feel when you have to struggle to achieve a goal, you appreciate it a bit more once you accomplish it.

[takeanumber]

Often ESL students are writing better than english students.

*cough*

er...no.

I don't know how many papers you mark a week....lol.

The first year kids are just brutal when they come in.

You know, it just varies by generational competition. Right now there's a lot of echo kids going through, so the competition is a lot stiffer. There are so many asses and so few seats. The standards for getting in, and staying in, are a lot harder now than they were for the busters or the X'ers.

As for Grad School, it's really, really hard to get in. We're talking 3.7-4.0 averages, which are very, very tough to get if you actually take some of the hard courses. Which another thing which is being looked at more. Sure...you got a 3.8 average, but hey, kid, you took Astronomy 205 and Geology 205 (rocks for jocks and comits for dimwits) as your science credits....and that's just not going to cut it. Go back and take a few real science courses and then try getting in.

But oh well.

Kids today really are smarter than those in the 1950's though. They're tested a lot more, and they gotta have a lot more skills. For instance, a kid is expected to know how to type, use a spreadsheet, use the internet, search journals, use a library, and write a formal essay all before getting into university. Plus, their calculators are taken away for first and second math courses. (You try going from tech heavy to no tech in a flash and see how you do.)

So it is different these days.

The middle class does get screwed a lot, but it's usually the rich doing the screwing, largely by shirking their responsibilities.

[Cartman]

*cough*

er...no.

I don't know how many papers you mark a week....lol.

Ha! Oops...you are right of course. I meant to say students from foreign countries where english is not nec. the language of instruction. I am often surprised that I have to pull out "old red" for Cdn students almost as frequently as I do these students. A Cdn student is always the top performer, but Cdns should be FAR better than these students. Generally, I have about 700-800 students per year and rising and I want a commission.

We're talking 3.7-4.0 averages, which are very, very tough to get if you actually take some of the hard courses. Which another thing which is being looked at more.

The Coms. do now carefully examine the courses taken thank goodness.

Kids today really are smarter than those in the 1950's though. They're tested a lot more, and they gotta have a lot more skills.

Think so? I kinda thought it was the other way around. They are more tech savvy for sure, but I wonder if they know the basics as well?

[August1991]

More people go to school now and stay longer. To the extent you believe in this, we are reaching further and further into the shallow end of the natural talent pool. (You could also argue that university access is more based on talent now. I'm thinking in terms of 1950 vs. 2000.)

Overall averages of SAT scores have been declining in the US.

[Cartman]

(You could also argue that university access is more based on talent now. I'm thinking in terms of 1950 vs. 2000.)

I agree with this generalization and suspect that it holds true if you go even further back in time. I do like our system compared to many others. The democratization of education has been very successful but, as I have suggested earlier, it needs some modification. Many positive changes are slowly taking place.

I am quite concerned though that a four year degree does not mean very much anymore (and has not for some time). I mean after 16 years or so of school? I really think we need to take a hard look at hs and university. Do you agree?

[RB]

the universities i currently attend there has not been significant jump in tuition ... what maybe 2% .. what i have noticed is a larger amounts of initial registration hold fee prior to class starting say 2 months prior, and the interest charged on outstanding balance is competing with those credit card rates .. someone has been using their talents

an undergrad degree is a minimum requirement for job opportunities and in the global marketplace we need to be competitive

folks that graduate from polytechnic universities enter into the marketplace with skills the the market demands

but largely universities do gear students up for further advance education and hence it is more academic.

i have no sympathies, i think a poor kid can work hard, play, and study study and get into university. they must have a desire to do it. i don't envy any of the rich or poor groups, but it is noteworthy, some of you are professors here so i take your word about inflated grades.