The Harper legacy: Politics is war

[jdobbin]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinio...article1171593/

Jeffrey Simpson's column this past Saturday.

First, Mr. Harper reunited the right, driving the union of two parties to produce a strong and effective Conservative Party that has won two minority governments. Today, the Conservatives remain competitive with the Liberals, no mean feat in a recession.

Second, Mr. Harper introduced negative television advertising between elections as a staple of Conservative politics.

Simpson hints that newer polling suggests the negative ads aren't having the same power as last time but that they are expected to be sustained for months.

A poll to be released Monday shows the ads have not stopped the incremental Liberal momentum. Liberals worry, however, that the ads are only the first volley in a sustained campaign against Mr. Ignatieff that, over time, will damage his image. After all, the campaign against Mr. Dion went on for months.

The ads, according to the poll, will show the impact greatest among hardcore, right-wing Conservatives but also among anti-American New Democrats for whom Mr. Ignatieff's years in the United States raise concerns.

I think the polls do re-enforce the belief that Harper acts like a thug with hyperpartisan go for the throat sociopathic mad dog behaviour.

Edited June 7, 2009 by jdobbin

[Argus]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinio...article1171593/

Jeffrey Simpson's column this past Saturday.

I don't like negative advertising. But I really can't blame the Tories given the Liberals used largely nothing BUT negative advertising during the last fifteen years. ALL Liberal election campaigns have been negative, focused on the largely imagined faults and threats of the conservatives. As for thuggish, I still have a picture of Chretien strangling some poor unemployed guy half his size, then hurling him aside to break his glasses while storming off.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Argus

[Borg]

The ads are truth ads

Harper - no different than those damned creepy libs - is at war.

Trust me that hooligan the "cretin creature" was a tough bastard - he played hard ball and that loser the martinette was weak and lost out because he could not maintain honesty and control in his party

Politics IS war - and the libs were masters - now they are losers

Borg

[scorpio]

Trust me that hooligan the "cretin creature" was a tough bastard - he played hard ball and that loser the martinette was weak and lost out because he could not maintain honesty and control in his party

Are you talking about the guy that got 3 back to back majorities?

Edited June 7, 2009 by scorpio

[jdobbin]

The ads are truth ads

Half the time they don't even accurately quote correctly as was pointed out this weekend in a few newspapers.

Harper - no different than those damned creepy libs - is at war.

Really? They advertised between elections even when they had money in the kitty for it?

Trust me that hooligan the "cretin creature" was a tough bastard - he played hard ball and that loser the martinette was weak and lost out because he could not maintain honesty and control in his party

Politics IS war - and the libs were masters - now they are losers

And now the polls are showing that people are tiring of the right wing acting like thugs.

[Keepitsimple]

Half the time they don't even accurately quote correctly as was pointed out this weekend in a few newspapers.

No criticism intended but do you have a link to any articles? I missed them and I do have an interest because the ads I saw seemed to be pretty accurate so I'd like to hear from the other side. Thanks.

[jdobbin]

No criticism intended but do you have a link to any articles? I missed them and I do have an interest because the ads I saw seemed to be pretty accurate so I'd like to hear from the other side. Thanks.

Here is one of the links from yesterday.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Life/Ignati...9031/story.html

But even if he is not the most interesting man in the country, he is currently the Canadian political leader most often misquoted by his adversaries - especially in this province, in French.

For example, a Conservative website quotes Ignatieff (snipurl.com/jie1l) as having said at a Liberal fundraising event in Toronto that "Canada needs troops, warriors and chiefs to lead the battle against Quebec."

What Ignatieff actually said, however, as reported in a Toronto Star story to which the Conservative site even links, is that "Canada is facing a national unity crisis in which 'we need troops, warriors and chieftains' ready for the political battle over Quebec." (In both quotations, the italics have been added to the original for emphasis.)

The writer of the story is no fan of Ignatieff but he certainly know when other political parties misquote.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Here is one of the links from yesterday.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Life/Ignati...9031/story.html

The writer of the story is no fan of Ignatieff but he certainly know when other political parties misquote.

Out of contexts words take on meanings contrary to the original intent.

[Keepitsimple]

Here is one of the links from yesterday.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Life/Ignati...9031/story.html

The writer of the story is no fan of Ignatieff but he certainly know when other political parties misquote.

Thanks Dobbin. Again....no criticism intended...but have you seen anything of substance with regards to the straight English "attack" ads? This is really only one example and things are always a little different in Quebec with the liberties of translation. I'm curious to know if any reporters have been able to credibly counter any of the English ads with facts.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I think Harper's legacy is merely a trail of meaningless minority governments that accomplished very little in real terms during their tenure.

[Moonbox]

I think the polls do re-enforce the belief that Harper acts like a thug with hyperpartisan go for the throat sociopathic mad dog behaviour.

Wow there's a mouthful. Did someone help you come up with that?

[Hydraboss]

Wow there's a mouthful. Did someone help you come up with that?

Nah. It's a cut-n-paste that he keeps handy. Search his posts and you'll find it all over the place.

[Topaz]

I believe when one doesn't know how to debate positively,take the low road, the easier road, the immature road and ATTACK! We have heard these attacks in the Commons every seating day and I'm tired of it, there's no respect. The Tories are very good in wasting money but its their money and because all this is done before any election is called, they won't get their money back from Election Canada. The Tories keep saying they are getting the job done, I think they are doing a JOB on Canada.

[canfan]

Thanks Dobbin. Again....no criticism intended...but have you seen anything of substance with regards to the straight English "attack" ads? This is really only one example and things are always a little different in Quebec with the liberties of translation. I'm curious to know if any reporters have been able to credibly counter any of the English ads with facts.

It's not a media report but I answered a similar question of yours in a different topic. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=427795

[jdobbin]

Wow there's a mouthful. Did someone help you come up with that?

I think it accurately reflects the behaviour of Harper. And given what the polls are saying, Harper is regarded pretty severely for his continued ad campaign. It seems you think that it doesn't have an affect at all.

[jdobbin]

Nah. It's a cut-n-paste that he keeps handy. Search his posts and you'll find it all over the place.

It is the response to the apologist denials that Harper only does things because the Liberals did it first. In this case, this is Harper's own personal war and it never end. It is go for the throat all the time, every time.

[jdobbin]

Thanks Dobbin. Again....no criticism intended...but have you seen anything of substance with regards to the straight English "attack" ads? This is really only one example and things are always a little different in Quebec with the liberties of translation. I'm curious to know if any reporters have been able to credibly counter any of the English ads with facts.

The misquotes in Quebec are not simple problems with translation. I think that much is clear.

English newspapers have often misquoted Ignatieff. On the tax issue, for example, Ignatieff answered a hypothetical question to a specific set of circumstances. Much of the media didn't report it as a hypothetical but as actual policy.

Harper faced a similar moment two weeks ago when he answered a question and said something about raising taxes. The Liberals asked him about that and he didn't believe he said it. The Liberals read back the Hansard to him and it is now the subject of a funny video on youtube.

Last year the media kept reporting that Igntaieff supported torture. This was the response of the Montreal Gazette.

http://www.regrettheerror.com/tag/the-gazette-montreal

In her column yesterday, Josée Legault asserted that Michael Ignatieff “supported the American invasion of Iraq and the use of torture.” In fact Mr. Ignatieff has not endorsed the use of torture; he has opposed it.

In a 2004 article Ignatieff wrote that “outright torture is anathema to a society built on freedom” but that in fighting terrorism “we” (Americans) will have to traffic in “lesser evils” such as “indefinite detention of suspects on lower standards of probable cause, coercive interrogations that fall short of torture, target assassinations of terrorist suspects, and even pre-emptive war.” Interrogation techniques he said would be acceptable include “sleep deprivation, disinformation, or disorientation.”

“… To safeguard our own democratic society,” he said, we must define “coercive interrogation that stops short of torture.”

Edited June 8, 2009 by jdobbin

[Argus]

Wow there's a mouthful. Did someone help you come up with that?

He's consulting with Oleg on the more complicated parts of his posts.

[Argus]

It is the response to the apologist denials that Harper only does things because the Liberals did it first. In this case, this is Harper's own personal war and it never end. It is go for the throat all the time, every time.

We're not hyper-partsans - though you are. We're simply the unbiased and jaded public who look at a dedicated, zealous worker for the Liberal Party coming on here and continuously pointing fingers at the Tories with cynicism. Your whole purpose here, every post you put up, has a single message: "Vote Liberal". So to suggest that our knowledge that you did and do the same things you're whining about the Tories doing should be forgotten, that we shouldn't shake our heads and say "Uh yeah, but your party did all that too" is nonsensical.

I watched your party let health care deteriorate the entire 13 years you were in power, most of that time sitting on fat surpluses, and watched them, every election, hold up health care as a "sacred trust" while villifying the tories and running scare campaigns about them wanting to destroy health care. Phhht. Your party is as heartless and coniving as anything you accuse the Tories of.

[Moonbox]

Don't try reasoning with him. He's beyond anyone's help.

Jdobbin's a tireless and rabidly over-zealous Liberal hack clinging desperately to the LPC brand and terrified if it's not running the show. To him, the LPC is always right and he closes his eyes, plugs his ears and screams loudly to anyone who says otherwise.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not personalizing here because I'm just stating my observations of his behaviour.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Moonbox

[jdobbin]

We're not hyper-partsans - though you are. We're simply the unbiased and jaded public who look at a dedicated, zealous worker for the Liberal Party coming on here and continuously pointing fingers at the Tories with cynicism. Your whole purpose here, every post you put up, has a single message: "Vote Liberal". So to suggest that our knowledge that you did and do the same things you're whining about the Tories doing should be forgotten, that we shouldn't shake our heads and say "Uh yeah, but your party did all that too" is nonsensical.

Please. You are always saying Liberals did things first and that Tories are not as bad for doing it too or for even going beyond what Liberals did.

I know you are never going to vote Liberal and I make no attempt to change your vote.

Don't make me laugh with your unbiased assertions. Of course they have bias. In your case against everything Liberal.

I watched your party let health care deteriorate the entire 13 years you were in power, most of that time sitting on fat surpluses, and watched them, every election, hold up health care as a "sacred trust" while villifying the tories and running scare campaigns about them wanting to destroy health care. Phhht. Your party is as heartless and coniving as anything you accuse the Tories of.

The provinces let healthcare deteriorate in their own pursuit of economic growth or cutting their deficits. Many provinces cut taxes in the 1990s rather than support healthcare.

I know conservatives want to blame the Liberals completely for the problems of healthcare but take no responsibility for the cuts they made provincially. It was heartless and conniving.

[jdobbin]

In Ignatieff's essay or whatever you want to call it, he did NOT as I recall say "Coercive interrogation short of torture". He just said that coercive interrogation, sleep deprivation etc were acceptable means of fighting terrorism. A lot of people said he's okay with 'torture lite'.

He did say it and that is why the Gazette wrote a retraction.

Sleep deprivation is what our own police use. If a suspect does not request a lawyer, police will question a suspect till they are tired and disoriented.

I mean, it's not REALLY torture unless you start causing bodily harm, right?

I think that is what most people believe torture is.

For the record I agree with him on this issue but that has nothing to do with what he did or didn't say. The interesting thing about Ignatieff is that he supports and supported many of the policies that liberals and leftists criticized Bush, and by loose extension Harper, for.

Liberals did not criticize tactics that our own police use. They criticized the physical abuse. Moreover, many believed it garnered unreliable information.

I have plenty of criticism for Ignatieff's position on the invasion of Iraq. But then I have the same criticism of Harper for that as well.

[jdobbin]

He's consulting with Oleg on the more complicated parts of his posts.

Says the guy who has spittle down his front from venting angrily posts every day.

[Argus]

Please. You are always saying Liberals did things first and that Tories are not as bad for doing it too or for even going beyond what Liberals did.

Liberals DID do things first. They were, after all, in power for most of the last forty years. They have set a pattern of behaviour which is fairly easy to follow for someone who has been watching them since Trudeau. Nor have I ever apologised for the Tories when I feel their programs or policies or decisions were bad ones. I don't defend the Tories so much as I point out, where apropriate, that when a Liberal supporter is making a complaint, that his party did the same. I guess its the hypocrisy of most of you guys that I dislike.

I know you are never going to vote Liberal and I make no attempt to change your vote.

I have as many liberal beliefs as conservative beliefs. The reason your party is not even a consideration for me is I have seen nothing - NOTHING - in terms of policy or programs coming out of the Liberals in twenty years on anything of substance which showed more than a cursory glance at the polls to show them what might be appropriate to push during election campaigns - and then conveniently forget right afterwards. Yours is a party of politicians whose only purpose is self-enrichment. The NDP at least are filled with people who truly want to help - even if they are kind of misguided, and often ideologically bone headed and stupid about issues and policy. The Greens too are idiots, but at least they're in politics to accomplish something, just ike most of the Tories. I don't get that impression from Liberals.

The provinces let healthcare deteriorate in their own pursuit of economic growth or cutting their deficits. Many provinces cut taxes in the 1990s rather than support healthcare.

Oh please. This is again evidence of the venal dishonesty of Liberals. You guys slashed health transfer payments to the provicnes by billions and billions, letting them take the heat for deteriorating health care. Then when you had huge surpluses, you hoarded them rather than doing anything to improve health care. That would have been bad enough on its own. But your insistence on turning every election into a dramatic defense of health care was just sickening. If you had really cared a damn about public health care you'd have put that money into solving the problems. But even now you don't have any ideas, any policies or initiatives to do anything about the problems of health care.

And I should vote for you because........ ?

[Oleg Bach]

Says the guy who has spittle down his front from venting angrily posts every day.

That's quite the imagination you have - I can see the spittle gleaming in the after noon sun - I watch as the droplets leave the bottom lip and fall in slow moe - hitting the keys on the board...typing out what a billion monkeys could never do..... by the way - no one can consult with OLEG - he is unconsolable...and I have spittle also..