Tories move to eliminate faint-hope clause

benny · June 8, 2009

In point of fact, since parole is now pretty much automatic regardless of behaviour, very few make any real effort to rehabilitate themselves. Why should they?
I'm not talking about someone writing a letter of apology and taking a correspondance course in business. I'm talking about someone who perhaps spent fifteen or twenty years in prison largely in voluntary work to help others - for example - and displayed such a real change, such an impressive sense that violence was wrong, that even the prison guards recommended he be released.

To get a job as parole board officer.

Hydraboss · June 8, 2009

This is just you saying that you like some rules and not others. It's got nothing to do with 1 rule being more valid than the other.

No it's not. It's saying that Canada needs to decide what the penalty for murder is, and make convicted killers serve it. Faint hope is based on the fact that some killers are worthy of early release from their early release (25 years, etc).

There should be absolutely no circumstances where someone who slaughtered someone else does not serve his sentence in full.

benny · June 8, 2009

No it's not. It's saying that Canada needs to decide what the penalty for murder is, and make convicted killers serve it. Faint hope is based on the fact that some killers are worthy of early release from their early release (25 years, etc).

Faint hope is based on the fact that there will always be a hope, however weak, that real freedom for all will happen one day.

Hydraboss · June 8, 2009

Let me fix that for you..

Faint hope is based on the fact that there will always be a hope, however weak, that real freedom for all WHO DESERVE IT will happen one day.

Killers don't deserve freedom, and least of all any kind of hope. Their lives are forfeit.

Smallc · June 8, 2009

Yes, in theory, just like RCMP officers, when they taser people.

Yes, just like RCMP officers. You don't seem to trust anyone or anything.

benny · June 8, 2009

Their lives are forfeit.

Life is hope.

Edited June 8, 2009 by benny

Hydraboss · June 8, 2009

Life is hope.

Then that should be taken from them as well.

benny · June 8, 2009

Then that should be taken from them as well.

No one will ever erase the Christian legacy.

Shady · June 8, 2009

Many jurisdictions make deficits illegal.

Which ones?

A few potholes, huh? How about bridges and overpasses collapsing and leaving commuters crushed?

Which ones?

Our prisons are bursting at the seams.

Which ones?

Perhaps the Tories will put up the statistics to back up their stance on things.

Perhaps you might want to try the same thing.

scorpio · June 8, 2009

Look at Saint Paul - he stood by and held the cloaks of the guys tossing rocks as the stoning of Saint Steven took place - he facilitated a murder - and was also involved they say in the killing of James the Just - the brother of Christ - and now look at Paul ------the Catholic church is Paulism - and he is the prime saint...worked for the Vatican - well - the boy rape was an occultish failure though...I guess that murderers do become saints in the eyes of humanity - but not God.

Look at Moses, he committed premeditated murder - should he have gotten the death penalty?

benny · June 8, 2009

Look at Saint Paul - he stood by and held the cloaks of the guys tossing rocks as the stoning of Saint Steven took place - he facilitated a murder - and was also involved they say in the killing of James the Just - the brother of Christ - and now look at Paul ------the Catholic church is Paulism - and he is the prime saint...worked for the Vatican - well - the boy rape was an occultish failure though...I guess that murderers do become saints in the eyes of humanity - but not God.

For a Christian, God is so simple that He will hide Himself in the worst man.

Jerry J. Fortin · June 8, 2009

Citizens can believe what they want, MOses did this, Jesus did that, it makes no real difference. The reality is that government is charged with protecting its citizens and to do so requires a judicial system. That system is supposed to function in a manner that provides justice for crimes committed. We have come far down this road in the last few decades, making a kinder and more gentle means of dispensing justice. While we have evolved in a legal sense, the crimes are still being perpetrated so that indicates we have not gone as far with our social system. Its time for a change.

Wild Bill · June 8, 2009

A number of posters have made claims in this thread about how Canadians feel about the death penalty. Here's a link that might be interesting:

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap.../rr01_1/p7.html

Scroll halfway down the page and you'll see Gallup stats on how Canadians feel about the death penalty.

Of course, those against the death penalty don't really care what the majority wants when it disagrees with their won views but still, the stats might give some good input for discussion.

Smallc · June 8, 2009

Another example of wanting to do things because of the way people feel....interesting.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Smallc

Hydraboss · June 8, 2009

Another example of wanting to do things because of the way people feel....interesting.

Funny how if a position favors your view, it's based on logic.

If it opposes your view, it's based on "feelings".

Interesting indeed.

Oleg Bach · June 8, 2009

A number of posters have made claims in this thread about how Canadians feel about the death penalty. Here's a link that might be interesting:
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap.../rr01_1/p7.html

Scroll halfway down the page and you'll see Gallup stats on how Canadians feel about the death penalty.

Of course, those against the death penalty don't really care what the majority wants when it disagrees with their won views but still, the stats might give some good input for discussion.

Forget the stats - the majority is always wrong - and those that become dependant on the duping of inferiours though vicious pandering - know better that death and the making of dead people is wrong - but power is more seductive to these types than actually caring about people. It's the bright and sinisiter ones that gather up the mob and bring the man to the gallows. Also those that enjoy the thought of tri-mester and early abortions enjoy the idea of the death penalty. These that I mentioned are not good people - and bad people whether they be respectable or offically deamed as crimminals should have not say over life or death - because - they do NOT have the best interests of society in mind...cut throat opportunists - want the death penalty - and they have no quams investing in the arms buisness either - You are either pro-life - or pro-death - and the pro-death types should never be granted authorship over humanity.

Smallc · June 8, 2009

Funny how if a position favors your view, it's based on logic.
If it opposes your view, it's based on "feelings".

Oh, I don't believe that at all. At the heart of almost every view is a feeling. There are arguments against and in favour of the death penalty...what it really comes down to is your feelings about them. It gets pointed out any time I make decisions based even partly on feelings, so, I've decided I'll return the favour.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Smallc

waldo · June 8, 2009

Funny how if a position favors your view, it's based on logic.
If it opposes your view, it's based on "feelings".

Interesting indeed.

and this particular more recent Gallup poll trumps the other more dated (Gallup) polls... how might you base this particular poll?

interesting... indeed!

2005 Gallup Poll - Attitudes Toward Death Penalty Compared By Country

Death Penalty Gets Less Support From Britons, Canadians Than Americans

... in Canada, a slight majority, 53%, oppose the death penalty, and 44% favor it.

scorpio · June 8, 2009

A number of posters have made claims in this thread about how Canadians feel about the death penalty. Here's a link that might be interesting:
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap.../rr01_1/p7.html

Scroll halfway down the page and you'll see Gallup stats on how Canadians feel about the death penalty.

Of course, those against the death penalty don't really care what the majority wants when it disagrees with their won views but still, the stats might give some good input for discussion.

Pretty old poll. But even so let Harper introduce it in Parliament.

Oleg Bach · June 8, 2009

Pretty old poll. But even so let Harper introduce it in Parliament.

If Harper wants the death penalty - that means that some old white jerks sitting in bank towers in Toronto and in Montreal - want the death penality. These old robber barrons have enough power finacially without giving them more through their surrogate bum boy Harper. Bad enough they can make you broke at will - so why allow them the futher privledge of making you dead at will? :rolleyes:

waldo · June 8, 2009

certainly... we should anticipate all those clamoring for a return "to the noose" would provide substantive detail supporting said need... supporting detail other than raw emotions and an almost visceral need for retribution .

- where are those statistics that show the homicide rate increased when the death penalty was removed?

- where are those studies to show the deterrent effect of capital punishment?

- how to explain that conviction rates for 1st degree murder have steadily increased in the absence of the death penalty... other than to accept that Canadian juries are more willing to convict in the absence of not being compelled to make a life and death decision.

- where are the studies/statistics to rationalize the improper incarceration of those much publicized wrongful convictions... convictions that would have resulted in their execution if the death penalty had not been abolished

Oleg Bach · June 8, 2009

certainly... we should anticipate all those clamoring for a return "to the noose" would provide substantive detail supporting said need... supporting detail other than raw emotions and an almost visceral need for retribution .
- where are those statistics that show the homicide rate increased when the death penalty was removed?

- where are those studies to show the deterrent effect of capital punishment?

- how to explain that conviction rates for 1st degree murder have steadily increased in the absence of the death penalty... other than to accept that Canadian juries are more willing to convict in the absence of not being compelled to make a life and death decision.

- where are the studies/statistics to rationalize the improper incarceration of those much publicized wrongful convictions... convictions that would have resulted in their execution if the death penalty had not been abolished

Ask yourself the question - personally...If YOU decieded to kill another human being - would you really be concerned about the death penalty if it existed in this nation? NOT likely - killers all believe they will get away with the crime - and those that don't believe that - are committing a suicide by state - similar to those that commit suicide by cop. IF - you become of murderous mind - all the threats of personal demise though your own actions mean nothing - a person once committed to kill has no regard for the consequences. If it is blind hate and rage that drives the killer - or clever evil intent - there is no diswading these persons - best to take them out of circulation to protect the public.

benny · June 8, 2009

Ask yourself the question - personally...If YOU decieded to kill another human being - would you really be concerned about the death penalty if it existed in this nation? NOT likely - killers all believe they will get away with the crime - and those that don't believe that - are committing a suicide by state - similar to those that commit suicide by cop. IF - you become of murderous mind - all the threats of personal demise though your own actions mean nothing - a person once committed to kill has no regard for the consequences. If it is blind hate and rage that drives the killer - or clever evil intent - there is no diswading these persons - best to take them out of circulation to protect the public.

With capital punishment, we may well make the symptom disappear without curing the disease.

Oleg Bach · June 8, 2009

With capital punishment, we may well make the symptom disappear without curing the disease.

That's your best one liner yet... of course killing will continue - look at Texas - hundreds executed and it has not dampened the murder rate one bit - So the second question - Those that want capital punishment - what motivates these characters - what it the sub-text to their need to punish..is it really to punish or is it a preverse need to kill - in effect are capital punishers similar to c0mmon street killers?

benny · June 8, 2009

That's your best one liner yet... of course killing will continue - look at Texas - hundreds executed and it has not dampened the murder rate one bit - So the second question - Those that want capital punishment - what motivates these characters - what it the sub-text to their need to punish..is it really to punish or is it a preverse need to kill - in effect are capital punishers similar to c0mmon street killers?

To help us find where is the disease, the best thing that murderers can do though is to ask to be executed.