'it's absolutely torture'

[KrustyKidd]

I'm telling you what many already know.....things that are politically or even legally off-limits can and will be officially invoked when circumstances favor such things.

I understand that President Obama wants to distance himself from the prior administration's practices, but interrogations and behavioral deprivations will continue....somewhere. I "support" the continuation of whatever methods are effective without limitation or political constraint. "War is hell."

I'm not going to change dick....POWs and other detainees in the so called WoT will be interrogated and subjected to "torture", if only because the threshold has now been set so low. My bias is plain as a former member of the US military with the complete expectation of torture by training and practice, regardless of how many bleeding hearts may argue otherwise on internet forums.

Yep. Not much is going to change with Obama.

But ding dong Bush is gone. Now the truth can be told.

And Obama will do the same when it comes down to it so, nothing changes. He still retains the option of enhanced interrogation as he won't come out and say he will not allow it.

Why is that?

[dub]

Now that we agree with each other that the detainees are afforded the opportunity to cooperate prior to undergoing enhanced interrogation, and, by their non cooperation basically volunteer for stronger methods, we can move onto other matters.

why are you making ridiculous comments?

[dub]

one of cheney's justifications for attacking iraq was a false 'admission' by a prisoner who said there was a connection between saddam and al queda. the 'admission' came after the prisoner was tortured.

[KrustyKidd]

why are you making ridiculous comments?

Specify what part of my contention that both I and Canadien agree with is ridiculous. He and I both agree that prisoners are given the option to talk prior to enhanced interrogation and thus, when they do not, have made a conscious decision to undergo this action, prefering it to talking.

[KrustyKidd]

one of cheney's justifications for attacking iraq was a false 'admission' by a prisoner who said there was a connection between saddam and al queda. the 'admission' came after the prisoner was tortured.

And the actual reasons for Bush spearheading the action was the Clinton era policy towards Iraq stating that Regime Change was the US official policy, the 2002 NIE, fourteen UN resolutions, authorization by Congress and umpteen ceasefire conditions broken by Iraq, not Cheney's suspicion.

[Sir Bandelot]

prisoners are given the option to talk prior to enhanced interrogation and thus, when they do not, have made a conscious decision to undergo this action, prefering it to talking.

Thats ludicrous. If the prisoner says that they don't know anything, they have no information to offer, what then? They get a free vacation at Disneyland?

[KrustyKidd]

Thats ludicrous. If the prisoner says that they don't know anything, they have no information to offer, what then? They get a free vacation at Disneyland?

I doubt that however, they are afforded every opportunity to talk. Explain all they know to prove they know nothing and then, have what they have told be corraborated to ensure it is accurate information. In the case of KSM, he simply repeated the 'we will find out' when asked what attacks were in the planning.

So, to simply say you do not know anything is not proof of any kind. You have to answer some detailed questions to explain why you were in a given place at a certain time, associating with certain people yet, had no knowledge of anything that was happening and then, have much of that information verified.

[tango]

Specify what part of my contention that both I and Canadien agree with is ridiculous. He and I both agree that prisoners are given the option to talk prior to enhanced interrogation and thus, when they do not, have made a conscious decision to undergo this action, prefering it to talking.

Again, the military/CIA do not allow sufficient time for detainees to 'talk', according to the FBI.

"every time the FBI established a rapport with a detainee, the military would step in and the detainee would stop being cooperative." So much for the utility of torture.

Obama will follow due process of justice and law enforcement, both of which determine policy.

It was Bush that wanted to make his own laws.

[Oleg Bach]

Again, the military/CIA do not allow sufficient time for detainees to 'talk', according to the FBI.

Obama will follow due process of justice and law enforcement, both of which determine policy.

It was Bush that wanted to make his own laws.

The CIA - had infomants at one time - now they have dishonoured themselves and informers resent them - and all the bribes in the world will not work - they breached common human trust and now are useless....if I hear the term "enhanced" interogation - I will electroncally smack them - that term reminds me of "ethnic cleansing" that something is dirty and must be cleaned up - it really means MURDER - or genocide...torture is for sexual deviates - if you can not gain the trust of a human being normally - then you are not fit to be in the intelligence service!

[bush_cheney2004]

.... if you can not gain the trust of a human being normally - then you are not fit to be in the intelligence service!

If you mean that the CIA should appeal to the same base human motivations, they do. But when that doesn't work, time to get out the pliers and the testicle alligator clips. If only to confirm your imagination and sell more tickets to our Hollywood productions.

[Oleg Bach]

If you mean that the CIA should appeal to the same base human motivations, they do. But when that doesn't work, time to get out the pliers and the testicle alligator clips. If only to confirm your imagination and sell more tickets to our Hollywood productions.

You got up from your chair and put your beer down for that BC? _ you are slipping - seems you know about the genital electro shock "therapy" ----

You know BC - I simply speculate that if the last administration was so inept in the human trust area - that their CIA was effected by the loss of crediblity - just a theory but it makes sense to me - would you sit down and confide with Cheney - Busg and rove?

[bush_cheney2004]

You got up from your chair and put your beer down for that BC? _ you are slipping - seems you know about the genital electro shock "therapy" ----

Well yea....it's also a good way to test 9V batteries for me trusty old transistor radio. You can also use your tongue.

You know BC - I simply speculate that if the last administration was so inept in the human trust area - that their CIA was effected by the loss of crediblity - just a theory but it makes sense to me - would you sit down and confide with Cheney - Busg and rove?

Not that complicated....the CIA was forced to replace HUMINT with a lot of high tech toys favored by the NSA and contractors. Losing assets on the ground became unacceptable save for new TV shows recycling 1960's story lines about spies and gadgets (but we also got Jennifer Garner...maybe it was worth it). The problem with the new toys was that the volume of gathered intelligence overwhelmed analysts and context. Losing the Soviets in the game didn't help either.

Edited June 1, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

Well yea....it's also a good way to test 9V batteries for me trusty old transistor radio. You can also use your tongue.

Not that complicated....the CIA was forced to replace HUMINT with a lot of high tech toys favored by the NSA and contractors. Losing assets on the ground became unacceptable save for new TV shows recycling 1960's story lines about spies and gadgets (but we also got Jennifer Garner...maybe it was worth it). The problem with the new toys was that the volume of gathered intelligence overwhelmed analysts and context. Losing the Soviets in the game didn't help either.

Within the information area gathered artifically (techno) had one draw back - just to much information for human beings at the other end to absorb - transcribe and understand - but the time they did their full analization...time moved ahead and human beings were playing new game - seems people adapt faster than the machine? All the drones and eyes in the sky will never replace a human informant that says " Abdula and the boys are going to blow your asses up on thursday" - As the soviets became more how will I say - privatized - mutual co-operation went by the way side. If you want to run an empire comprised of crooks - the "new" Russians maintain tight lipped - code of silence and all that KGB turned Mafia stuff. Assets on the ground as you pointed out - might finally figure out that America does not keep it's word and word got around.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... As the soviets became more how will I say - privatized - mutual co-operation went by the way side. If you want to run an empire comprised of crooks - the "new" Russians maintain tight lipped - code of silence and all that KGB turned Mafia stuff. Assets on the ground as you pointed out - might finally figure out that America does not keep it's word and word got around.

No, it was not anything to do with tight lipped KGB....the once polarized playing field fragmented into many different pieces of historical bitching contests no longer constrained by the Cold War. The Jihadwads weren't pissed at the USA when it was Yankees providing Stinger missiles and cash to bring down Hinds (MI-24).

America kept its word just about as much as "they" did.

[Oleg Bach]

No, it was not anything to do with tight lipped KGB....the once polarized playing field fragmented into many different pieces of historical bitching contests no longer constrained by the Cold War. The Jihadwads weren't pissed at the USA when it was Yankees providing Stinger missiles and cash to bring down Hinds (MI-24).

America kept its word just about as much as "they" did.

You are a brave man BC - testing a 9 volt battery with your tongue.. looks like a cold war created to sides - us and them - and that was managable because of the simplicity of it all. Now no one knows who is who or where they are - talk about blended families and war fare - the even warfare is adulterated - now you can have a sleeper neighbour who's got a calender in his kitchen with attack dates on it....it's a mixed bag - You sure know your stuff BC - and all I know being a rube is - war toys are facinating..better than a Daisy..

[bush_cheney2004]

...Now no one knows who is who or where they are - talk about blended families and war fare - the even warfare is adulterated - now you can have a sleeper neighbour who's got a calender in his kitchen with attack dates on it....it's a mixed bag... -

You are right but for the wrong reason.....I am far more likely to be killed by another patriot living his/her version of the American dream. My neighbor (with a Canadian wife) always carries a sidearm...even when mowing the damn lawn.

[KrustyKidd]

Again, the military/CIA do not allow sufficient time for detainees to 'talk', according to the FBI.

Interesting. The others and I had taken sides on the aspect of choice as per the detainees and now, you enter and add to the strength of my argument by stating that indeed, the choice was there for the detainees to talk but, some feel there should have been more time allocated.

I don't know whether to thank you for taking my side or to address the expanded argument. Let me know.

Obama will follow due process of justice and law enforcement, both of which determine policy.

Obama Reserves right to Torture

CHENEY: It's almost gone unnoticed that the President has retained the power to order the same methods in the same circumstances.

MATTHEWS: Is that true, David?

AXELROD: Look, the president issued an executive order banning torture. As he said in his presentation he doesn't believe this is the most effective way to get the intelligence we need. He thinks it's inconsistent with our values and our interests. And ultimately makes us less safe. And that is his position. And again this what almost the sole focus of the Vice President's speech and it was a little bit bewildering. But that's his business. I thought the President laid out a very reasoned speech to the American people about why he took the decisions he's taken. And about where we have to go to clean up the mess that we have in Guantanamo and to preserve our values and our security.

MATTHEWS: Well is it your understanding that President Obama reserves the right to use enhanced interrogation methods if we're in an emergency situation. Is that your understanding? According to the former vice president, that is what the president has said on the record.

AXELROD: I think that President has made clear his feeling about those tactics with his executive order. The President's going to do everything that he needs to do to keep this country safe. And I think he's been clear about that. The American people should be clear about that. This, to me, is a side issue.

Obama has yet to clarify his position other than to allow the world to hang on his press secretaries ominous words of 'everything he needs to do to keep this country safe.'

Obama will follow due process of It was Bush that wanted to make his own laws.

Bush gave authorization for the FBI to use their methods as well. You know, the ones you agree with. Why do you think he simply didn't tell them to torture the poor saps to start with? Could it be that the FBI and the CIA have totally different roles and goals? Bet you don't know what the big difference between their missions are do you as that would explain the different interrogation methods.