Smallc Posted April 14, 2009 Report Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) Alberta pays for this country. Not the NWT. Nor any other province or territory that receives transfer payments. There are many provinces that are net contributors. Newfoundland and Labrador (soon will), Ontario (always), Saskatchewan (sometimes), British Columbia(sometimes), and Alberta (always). One interesting thing to note is that only one of those provinces built it's wealth without energy. Wrong. Saskatchewan's resources are far easier to access than Alberta's. Shallow oil and gas (mainly oil) that can be pad-drilled by coiled tubing units at high speed. And no forests to cut down or mountains to build roads over. Well first, more of Saskatchewan's wealth comes from potash mines - they take years to set up and they have been building them up for a while. Much of it's oil wealth now comes from the Bakken formation. We didn't even know what to do with it until recently. Alberta's oilsands were on the surface. Yes, roads had to be built and the oil is hard to get out, but it was sitting right there, waiting. Once again, Alberta pays for this country. Not the NWT. Nor any other province or territory that receives transfer payments. Receiving less welfare than you used to changes nothing. You're still on welfare. That isn't anymore true no matter how many times you say it. Until the beginning of the US downturn (sometime in mid 2007) Alberta wasn't even the fastest growing economy. Ontario was. Also, I really don't think you're understanding what I was saying. N + L is the only province that receives less 'welfare' than it used to. Alberta now gets $1000 per person from Ottawa. Only $220 less than BC, $220 less than Ontario, and $440 less than Saskatchewan. This year, Alberta will receive $3.6B from Ottawa - an amount that is $1.2B more than in 2005 - 2006 and an amount equal to that received by the Province of Manitoba. You aren't nearly so high and mighty as you think. You mean to say "when a country has a province that has so much". As I said, every province contributes. Ontario contributes more in total dollar value...Alberta contributes more per capita. Kwebek has it's own immigration policy. Kwebek collects its own taxes. Canada has parts of the country that won't join confederation. I'm ignorant and selfish? Really. Must be because I'm an Albertan and you're not. You wouldn't dare make that statement to a pseudo-frenchman from eastern Canada. Every province is entitled to the same rights that Quebec has. Many provinces have special immigration agreements with Ottawa and any province can collect its own taxes. Quebec is just as much a part of Confederation as Alberta is. It can be argued that it is an even bigger part as it is one of the founding provinces. Without Quebec there would be no Canada. The same applies to Alberta. Oh, and your ignorance and selfishness has nothing to do with your place of residence. We agree. Unless you're from Alberta. Then you're just a money-laden pack horse. Every person has a say in this country. That's one of the best things about it. What about when an entire province disagrees? Hmmm. Justice is not about agreeing or disagreeing...it's about what's right....and that isn't always what we think is right. That fact is why I rarely step into discussions about legal decisions. I wasn't there, I don't know everything about them, and I trust the Justices to deliver fair verdicts....and I doubt 100% of Albertans disagree with 100% of verdicts. I guess if Ontario or Kwebek disagreed it would change law....but....that's right....we don't have enough seats to count. People always have a say in how laws are made...just not how their enforced....as it should be. A knee jerk reaction to a situation doesn't solve anything. And you think you should have as many seats as a province with almost 13M people and another with almost 8M people?....wow Yes, Alberta is currently under represented....and so is Ontario. That is being fixed (for the most part - although Ontario will still be under represented) in 2011 I believe it is. "Everyone in this country pays for healthcare." Wrong again. People who live in "have not" provinces do not pay for health care (fully anyway...some not at all). Alberta pays for health care. As long as you are a net receiver of Alberta money, you're a leech. No, you're wrong. Everyone who spends any money in this country pays taxes. We all pay for healthcare. Ontario doesn't receive any Alberta money...BC and Saskatchewan don't either....I guess the majority of the population isn't a leach to you, eh? My disrespect for the Communist Nation of Kwebek is well earned. Kwebek is art? You mean like the "dead rabbits in trees" display several years ago? I agree. Overly expensive and nothing but a pet project of Liberals. Any province (if you can call it that) that retains a 13 billion dollar "constitutional crisis" fund to buy devalued Canadian currency, but still gladly accepts Alberta and Ontario money in transfers is a real jewel. It was supposed to be part...and Quebec is part of Canada...and probably always will be. It contributes in many ways, even if it is slightly below average in total money value (and it makes up a large part of the economy...and before the recession was growing about tied with BC just behind Alberta). By the way, when we speak of federal governments, money IS everything. They exist only to redistribute money. Anything else and they just screw it up anyway. Pure ignorance. We have been lucky to have such a responsible federal government from 1993 to today. They do more than distribute money. Your narrow view of the world isn't always the true one. Edited April 14, 2009 by Smallc Quote
waldo Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 And Smallc, the rest of Canada can shove the constitution (a wholly useless document) up their collective socialist asses. Hard to respect a "national" ideal that doesn't apply to the whole nation.Alberta would be far better to cut loose the needy children and go on about it's way solo. There might actually be a chance that we could even have a justice system instead of the legal system we have now. We would have the health care system that we can afford instead of dying in lineups so the whole country can feel good about "free healthcare". Guess what? It's not free. I pay for it. Oh, and to not be Kwebek's bitch for a change would also be a pleasure. Hydraboss, when your Alberta economy is a one-trick pony... it's apparently good to have recourse. I expect there is room at the trough - c'mon... belly up. Alberta to seek federal aid For the first time in nearly two decades, the Alberta government expects it will qualify for federal financial aid from a program designed to help provinces cope with steep, sudden drops in revenue. Finance Minister Iris Evans said officials in her department have already given their counterparts in Ottawa a heads-up that Alberta may come calling for fiscal stabilization dollars. Unless the economy makes a dramatic turnaround shortly, the province anticipates it will qualify for $220 million in one-time funding after the 2009-10 year ends in March. The Alberta government may also make a case for the fiscal year that just passed, after revenue figures are finalized next month. Alberta's need for federal stabilization cash is another sign of its stunning reversal of fortune -- plummeting from an unprecedented economic boom into recession. Quote
Moonbox Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 Smallc I think the point you are missing here is the relative amount of aid per person that's contributed. Quebec and many other provinces have habitually leached more than their fair share of transfer payments, to Ontario and Alberta's habitual detriment. I think Hydraboss is WAY out to lunch on a lot of things (Alberta separatism is an idiotic idea in the long run for numerous reasons, especially for the people of Alerta) but he does have a point when he's talking about transfer payments. I think everyone should be entitled to free health care in Canada, but when you look at different provinces and the way they spend their money, it starts to look like my taxes in Ontario are being used to fund welfare and social programs in other provinces. This is particularly irksome when you look at Quebec because they have an entire federal party whose objective is SOLELY to get an unfairly advantageous deal for their province. Transfer payments are all fine and dandy IF they were distributed equally or at least to a reasonable extent. If we have to subsidize health care in New Brunswick or invest federal dollars in Alberta energy, I'm not going to cry because these are investments and the entire country should end up benefiting from them. When the dollars are being spent on social programs in Quebec and the Maritimes (particularly EI and welfare), however, and these expenditures are both perpetual and EXPECTED (NFLD is an exception now but regardless), THAT'S where the idea of a Federation looks like it's breaking down. Quebec has ABUNDANT natural resources and the rest of the country should not have to subsidize their sloth. YES I WENT THERE . Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Smallc Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) I simply disagree. There are formulae set out that is used to distribute money between provinces. Some provinces simply can't meet the average, and so to ensure that all people have similar services for similar taxes, equalization is a necessity...and as I have said many times, it's also constitutionally mandated. Yes, some provinces will always be on the receiving end, but that is simply the nature of our federation. Edited May 25, 2009 by Smallc Quote
Moonbox Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) I simply disagree. There are formulae set out that is used to distribute money between provinces. Some provinces simply can't meet the average, and so to ensure that all people have similar services for similar taxes, equalization is a necessity...and as I have said many times, it's also constitutionally mandated. Yes, some provinces will always be on the receiving end, but that is simply the nature of our federation. Similar services for similar taxes would work if the provinces in question even paid similar taxes or offered similar services. Similar services, in my mind, don't mean supporting more than double the % of unemployed 'workers' on a perpetual basis. This is especially irksome when this happens in resource/energy rich provinces with access to large ports and international waterways. Using federal funds, like I said, to invest in Health Care and infrastructure/economic investments, that's one thing. Using equalization to subsidize perpetual unemployment and in some cases cultural loafing is another. The equalization formula as it stands is a mess and we can get into that if you reall want to but I advise you to look at some criticism of it first. Edited May 25, 2009 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Hydraboss Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 Hydraboss, when your Alberta economy is a one-trick pony... it's apparently good to have recourse. I expect there is room at the trough - c'mon... belly up.Alberta to seek federal aid For the first time in nearly two decades, the Alberta government expects it will qualify for federal financial aid from a program designed to help provinces cope with steep, sudden drops in revenue. Finance Minister Iris Evans said officials in her department have already given their counterparts in Ottawa a heads-up that Alberta may come calling for fiscal stabilization dollars. Unless the economy makes a dramatic turnaround shortly, the province anticipates it will qualify for $220 million in one-time funding after the 2009-10 year ends in March. The Alberta government may also make a case for the fiscal year that just passed, after revenue figures are finalized next month. Alberta's need for federal stabilization cash is another sign of its stunning reversal of fortune -- plummeting from an unprecedented economic boom into recession. It's about freaking time we demanded some of our money back. Iris is not stupid (although she was a better Children's Services Minister than money-chick), but her error (other than supporting NDP Ed) is that she should be pressing for a hundred times that amount. It's Alberta money, and it should come back to Albertan's. I'm a firm believer that Alberta should be deeply in the red on every budget for the next ten years (only on paper of course) and become a have-not province when it comes to equalization. Turn-about is fair play, and Kwebek has been getting away with it for decades. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Moonbox Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 and this is my problem with equalization. Because of how vote-rich Quebec is, they're able to get the pandering CPC and LPC to throw money at them which only perpetuates a joke on our behalf. They have resources. They have energy. They have seaports. They are close to the US border. The only problem the Quebecquois have can be laid flat on their 'culture' and their desire to contribute to Canada. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
waldo Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 It's about freaking time we demanded some of our money back. Iris is not stupid (although she was a better Children's Services Minister than money-chick), but her error (other than supporting NDP Ed) is that she should be pressing for a hundred times that amount. It's Alberta money, and it should come back to Albertan's. I'm a firm believer that Alberta should be deeply in the red on every budget for the next ten years (only on paper of course) and become a have-not province when it comes to equalization. Turn-about is fair play, and Kwebek has been getting away with it for decades. with a lump in my throat and teary eyes, I welcome you back from your separatist musings... back into the Constitutional fold Quote
waldo Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 and this is my problem with equalization. Because of how vote-rich Quebec is, they're able to get the pandering CPC and LPC to throw money at them which only perpetuates a joke on our behalf. They have resources. They have energy. They have seaports. They are close to the US border. The only problem the Quebecquois have can be laid flat on their 'culture' and their desire to contribute to Canada. as equalization is revenue based... and Quebec, typically, on a per-capita basis, has received the lowest equalization payments of the so-called "have-not" provinces. Quote
Hydraboss Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 with a lump in my throat and teary eyes, I welcome you back from your separatist musings... back into the Constitutional fold Don't pop the bubbly just yet. I'm still strongly in favor of Alberta leaving the rest of you behind, but until that happens this province should be taking back the money stolen from it's citizens. Nice try though. You can wave to me over the wall. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 and this is my problem with equalization. Because of how vote-rich Quebec is, they're able to get the pandering CPC and LPC to throw money at them which only perpetuates a joke on our behalf. They have resources. They have energy. They have seaports. They are close to the US border. The only problem the Quebecquois have can be laid flat on their 'culture' and their desire to contribute to Canada. I have a question about the impartiality of the equalization formulas, why doesn't Hydro-Quebec revenue translate into the sum totals for Quebec? I must stand for my province in terms of equalization. On the other hand I certainly don't agree with the PC Government of Alberta seeking funds from the feds just because they are too incompetent to balance their check books. Hell we still have royalty rebates going on to the poor oil companies. We have enough worries of our own to start dealing with the feds on any level at all. The level of expensive bureaucracy that goes down that path is simply a waste of tax dollars, and when so many provinces are having difficulty it seems to me to that it would simply harm someone else to pursue the matter. The money comes from citizens, they are due some measure of respect. Quote
Moonbox Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 as equalization is revenue based... and Quebec, typically, on a per-capita basis, has received the lowest equalization payments of the so-called "have-not" provinces. At least with the Maritimes you can make the case (other than Nfld) that they don't have vast natural resources or urban centres. It's no secret why PEI and Nova Scotia are relatively poor. There are no resources and there is no nearby population to manufacture for. Quebec, on the other hand, has literally everything going for it and receives over half the annual equalization payments on a perpetual basis. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Smallc Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 And my province receives twice as much as Quebec per capita, but I would feel the same way no matter where I lived. The idea behind the program is that we're all Canadain, and it doesn't matter where we live. Equalization is an excellent program because it looks beyond the provincial attitude that so many seem to maintain. Quote
Moonbox Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 And my province receives twice as much as Quebec per capita, but I would feel the same way no matter where I lived. The idea behind the program is that we're all Canadain, and it doesn't matter where we live. Equalization is an excellent program because it looks beyond the provincial attitude that so many seem to maintain. Smallc no offense but it's very easy to say what you're saying from the receiving end. It's a completely different story when you're paying. Equalization is equally annoying no matter which province it's going to. It's especially annoying to see the bulk of it go to Quebec, however, as the majority of them don't even really see themselves Canadian and vote federally for a party purely devoted to getting the best deal for Quebec only with a secondary goal of destabilizing federal politics. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Smallc Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) According to the article in the political polls thread, the majority of Quebecers do see themselves as Canadians, but that's beside the point. Equalization is a program created to make sure that everyone can share in the wealth of Canada. It's a wonderful idea and I would support it no matter where I was living. Anyway, the program isn't going awayt (thank God). See, I think of mlself as a Canadian. I love Manitoba and Winnipeg, but I love the entire country, and that's why I wholeheartedly support programs like Equalization. Edited May 25, 2009 by Smallc Quote
Alta4ever Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) And my province receives twice as much as Quebec per capita, but I would feel the same way no matter where I lived. The idea behind the program is that we're all Canadain, and it doesn't matter where we live. Equalization is an excellent program because it looks beyond the provincial attitude that so many seem to maintain. "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." WSC Edited May 25, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Alta4ever Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) Equalization is a program created to make sure that everyone can share in the wealth of Canada. It's a wonderful idea and I would support it no matter where I was living. Anyway, the program isn't going awayt (thank God). Like all socialist ideology, its a wonderful idea, but fails to work when it meets reality. Edited May 25, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Moonbox Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 See, I think of mlself as a Canadian. I love Manitoba and Winnipeg, but I love the entire country, and that's why I wholeheartedly support programs like Equalization. I would love it too if it the federal government paid $2000 worth of taxes each year for me. Like I said, it's easy to love Canada when it's paying your bills. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 The way around the problem is simply to exercise the powers vested in the provinces as determined by the constitution. That document makes the provinces equal partners in confederation. That concept of equality, or perhaps the definition of equality needs to be brought before the highest court in the land and determined once and for all. From my perspective, the provinces should have as much say as the federal government. In other words the provinces working in cooperation should be able to tell the federal government what to do. I think we merely need to get off the dime and do something. Quote
Hydraboss Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 I would love it too if it the federal government paid $2000 worth of taxes each year for me. Like I said, it's easy to love Canada when it's paying your bills. And if, like some STUDENT posters, I had never really paid taxes in my life. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Smallc Posted May 26, 2009 Report Posted May 26, 2009 (edited) A country is more than money....something Conservatives seem to fail to understand. I try to be fair and non judgmental, but some of you make it very difficult sometimes. This country isn't all about you, it's about Canadians...every one of them, and that's why Equalization exists and is enshrined within our Constitution...and as a result, Conservatives can't touch it. Thank God. Edited May 26, 2009 by Smallc Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 26, 2009 Report Posted May 26, 2009 (edited) My money belongs to my family, not some lowlife in Kwebek. In other words, your money belongs to a francophobic, homophobic (among other things) lowlife dinosaur. Edited May 26, 2009 by CANADIEN Quote
Smallc Posted May 26, 2009 Report Posted May 26, 2009 The way around the problem is simply to exercise the powers vested in the provinces as determined by the constitution. I fail to see how that could be done, as Equalization is also in the Constitution. Quote
Smallc Posted May 26, 2009 Report Posted May 26, 2009 "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."WSC That's the thing about countries...they have elements from many different economic systems. The trick is finding the right balance...and we seem to be doing quite well. Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 26, 2009 Report Posted May 26, 2009 Me? A low life? Yes. And not because you're from Alberta, or because you would defend Alberta. Actually, Alberta deserves better than you. Quote
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