Alberta demands $700 million more from Ottawa

[CANADIEN]

I'm still strongly in favor of Alberta leaving the rest of you behind,

And I am in favour of you leaving A;berta and Canada behind, if this country is too good for your taste.

[Alta4ever]

That's the thing about countries...they have elements from many different economic systems. The trick is finding the right balance...and we seem to be doing quite well.

Obviously it is not working since it is being used by various regions to play politics with ottawa.

[Smallc]

Obviously it is not working since it is being used by various regions to play politics with ottawa.

Given that quality of life that we enjoy here, obviously it is working. Oh, and Equalization isn't what provinces use against Ottawa...other transfers on the other hand....

Edited May 26, 2009 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I fail to see how that could be done, as Equalization is also in the Constitution.

According to the Government of Canada http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/...f_govt_01-e.asp"The provincial legislatures have power over direct taxation in the province for provincial purposes, natural resources, prisons (except penitentiaries), charitable institutions, hospitals (except marine hospitals), municipal institutions, licences for provincial and municipal revenue purposes, local works and undertakings (with certain exceptions), incorporation of provincial companies, solemnization of marriage, property and civil rights in the province, the creation of courts and the administration of justice, fines and penalties for breaking provincial laws, matters of a merely local or private nature in the province, and education (subject to certain rights of the Protestant and Roman Catholic minorities in some provinces)."

Further to this, "Subject to the limitations imposed by the Constitution Act, 1982, the provinces can amend their own constitutions by an ordinary Act of the legislature."

So in answer to your point write a provincial constitution taking advantage of every single angle and loophole. Opt out of everything you can, charge back everything you can and take over everything you can.

[CANADIEN]

, the rest of Canada can shove the constitution (a wholly useless document) up their collective socialist asses.

You don't like CANADA, leave.

Alberta would be far better

(...) without you.

[Smallc]

So in answer to your point write a provincial constitution taking advantage of every single angle and loophole. Opt out of everything you can, charge back everything you can and take over everything you can.

That would be a terrible way to run a federation.

[Smallc]

Also, Equalization, because it affects all provinces, would be subject to the limitations of the Constitution Act, 1982.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Also, Equalization, because it affects all provinces, would be subject to the limitations of the Constitution Act, 1982.

I will suggest that it is how the federation is BEING run now, look at the reality of Quebec. How many bureaucratic jobs are there in that province in federal service. How many dollars of budget go toward Quebec and its citizens in total? I will suggest that the answer will surprise you.

Equalization is a federal program true. Yet the provinces are supposed to be equal partners in confederation. Should the provinces determine that changes should be made, the reality is that Ottawa MUST comply with the requests. The feds have one vote and each province has a vote, they are outnumbered, its plain and simple. Our problem lays with gaining a majority of support. The feds use a divide and conquer strategy, it has worked so far to preserve their power.

[Smallc]

The feds have one vote and each province has a vote, they are outnumbered, its plain and simple.

And since the provinces must agree on what to do in a case such as this (because changing equalization affects all provinces), it isn't going to change.

[Moonbox]

As mentioned before, there are various ways the provinces can change their Constitutions and there are various ways the provinces can arrange to have the constitution changed and failing that there are ways the provinces can force federal fiscal adjustments in their favor.

The fact that the West has been a Liberal wasteland for the last 20 years is a pretty good indication of where equalization policy has gone. Ontario and the West thought they had found a solution with Harper but unfortunately he ultimately turned out to govern exactly like the Liberals had previously with spending and pandering to Quebec.

A golden opportunity was blown in my opinion, one which will likely cost Harper and the CPC the vital support of Ontario that it needs. I'll probably not vote for him again.

[Smallc]

An ammendment that would affect equalization would require 2/3 of provinces holding 50% of the population along with the consent of the HoC and the Senate. Alsom, by convention, it is thought that the people would have to be consulted and so a referendum would need to pass in each province. A change to eqaulization is nearly impossible.

Also, when it comes to Ontario, they may not like that theyy have to support other provinces right now, but I don't see the government of Ontario supporting an end to the program.

[KeyStone]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0408?hub=Canada

Looks like Harper might hear from more of the provinces about their shortfalls.

We'll see if the Tories will listen to their counterparts in Alberta.

I find it interesting that Stelmach is going to raise taxes to help against the shortfall.

What about the standard Conservative practice of lowering taxes, which makes businesses spring out of nowhere, and pay more taxes.

Surely, that will get the government coffers flowing again.

And if that doesn't work, surely another cash giveaway will boost the Albertan economy and fill the government coffers.

I love how the province with the lowest tax rates, and no PST says that unless the government helps them, they may have to raise taxes!

[geoffrey]

The Alberta government already receives $4 billion in transfers. You think they should refuse that as well and go $8 billion in debt or slash $8 billion in spending?

So long as we can refuse to pay "into" the system as well. But then again, Canada would be second world at best if that happened.

What truly needs to happen is for "the weakling Stechmach" to serve Ottawa with the requisite one year notice that Alberta intends to change to collecting all income taxes (provincial and federal) and will forward that which is due the Federal govenment.......minus the amount of the transfer payments made from this province. The first part is constitutionally the responsibility of the provincial governments, the second is just what's right for the people of Alberta.

Or just stop paying taxes to Ottawa until the views of Albertans are better represented. Why should we pay for Ontario autoworkers? My engineer friends at Suncor that got turfed didn't get a bailout and their RRSP's guarnted by the Feds. What justice is that? Some dropout gets more than an educated person?

Shows the priorities in this country. Fools.

Looking at the post above (payment per capita), it's blatantly obvious that Albertans are fifth-class citizens in Canada. $508 per person? We make enough money in this province to increase that amount by a factor of 20. But apparently my kids are far less important than some psuedo-french kid.

It's very clear that financial, our lives would be much better if we didn't ship all of our money to the socialists out East, with their government happily holding their hand every day.

[jdobbin]

So long as we can refuse to pay "into" the system as well. But then again, Canada would be second world at best if that happened.

Who exactly is refusing to pay? The federal government collects tax and distributes it according to a constitutional formula. Every industrialized nation has a form of transfers except the U.S. which has a more loosely based way of transferring funding to the states.

Alberta collects $4 billion from transfers each year.

Or just stop paying taxes to Ottawa until the views of Albertans are better represented. Why should we pay for Ontario autoworkers? My engineer friends at Suncor that got turfed didn't get a bailout and their RRSP's guarnted by the Feds. What justice is that? Some dropout gets more than an educated person?

So the province is refusing to pay taxes? Your friends aren't? You aren't?

It's very clear that financial, our lives would be much better if we didn't ship all of our money to the socialists out East, with their government happily holding their hand every day.

You will vote for an Alberta separatist party next time? If not, you are just supporting the present system. Harper increased transfers. He did it even though the Liberals were hardly pushing him on the issue.

[geoffrey]

So the province is refusing to pay taxes? Your friends aren't? You aren't?

We should refuse tax payments as a province (assuming we could collect our own taxes, which we can if we had the political will).

The oil sands will layoff more workers this year than the auto industry. Where is our bailout? The government should "rescue" Suncor and give everyone their jobs back. You could save more quality jobs out here with less money than you can save in Ontario (these people are obsolete regardless, the auto industry will never come back).

But that's not what happens. Instead, Alberta's money pays for dropouts to get six figure salaries and bigger pensions that oilsands workers could dream of.

That's not a country. That's a f'in sham. We are getting SCREWED.

You will vote for an Alberta separatist party next time? If not, you are just supporting the present system. Harper increased transfers. He did it even though the Liberals were hardly pushing him on the issue.

I'll happy support any party that suggests that we stand up for ourselves a little more out here. Or leave.

[jdobbin]

We should refuse tax payments as a province (assuming we could collect our own taxes, which we can if we had the political will).

I have not heard of the province moving towards that. Are you going to do it yourself?

The oil sands will layoff more workers this year than the auto industry. Where is our bailout? The government should "rescue" Suncor and give everyone their jobs back. You could save more quality jobs out here with less money than you can save in Ontario (these people are obsolete regardless, the auto industry will never come back).

Seems to me that the oil industry has been getting subsidies for many years and continue to do so. Won't the increase in oil prices act as a bail-out?

But that's not what happens. Instead, Alberta's money pays for dropouts to get six figure salaries and bigger pensions that oilsands workers could dream of.

And there are no drop outs working in the oil industry?

That's not a country. That's a f'in sham. We are getting SCREWED.

So you believe oil and manufacturing subsidies should end?

I'll happy support any party that suggests that we stand up for ourselves a little more out here. Or leave.

You're thinking of leaving Canada? And going where?

[Smallc]

I'll happy support any party that suggests that we stand up for ourselves a little more out here. Or leave.

Bye.

[Smallc]

So long as we can refuse to pay "into" the system as well. But then again, Canada would be second world at best if that happened.

Yes, then we'd only have as much money as....France...or the United Kingdom. Terrible places those are.

[Smallc]

It's funny how all of the separatist Albertans seem to be the ones that make it on the interweb. Considering that separatism only runs at 20% in the polls in Alberta (at best), it seems that there is an awfully disproportionate number on the internet.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It's funny how all of the separatist Albertans seem to be the ones that make it on the interweb. Considering that separatism only runs at 20% in the polls in Alberta (at best), it seems that there is an awfully disproportionate number on the internet.

One out of five eh? Thats not bad, something to work with there I think. Give us a couple of Liberal governments and see where those numbers go! I am a separatist, because this nation is lazy and afraid. The politics of fear dominate the national agenda, and the tax and spend ideology applies to both of the major partisan factions. Albertans are a little more self sufficient and self respecting. A majority believe that hard work yields benefit and most would rather do for themselves than have the government do for them. That is the key to Alberta politics by the way, not too complicated is it?

Perhaps the numbers advertised are not the reality.

[Molly]

Ontarians who've never been more than 400 miles from home would say the same sort of things... that this is a hardworking, pragmatic province that pulls more than it's fair share of weight... that the rest of the country is lazy and afraid (and a little bit stupid).

Same in Saskatchewan; same in Newfoundland; same, same same....

And all of them would say that hard work yields benefit, and that they'd rather do it all by themselves without government participation, and then pat themselves on the back for being the smartest, most hardworking, rugged individuals of all.

[jdobbin]

I am a separatist, because this nation is lazy and afraid.

I've always believed a true separatist is prepared to fight and kill for their beliefs.

I don't see a peaceful separation in Canada's future.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I've always believed a true separatist is prepared to fight and kill for their beliefs.

I don't see a peaceful separation in Canada's future.

Kill? Not likely, not I at any rate. I could see myself dying in attempt to save a life but that is about it. Especially over some political motive. I would fight with words and the law of the land but that is the extent of it.

As to the future, well who can know how that will turn out. I desire a "Northwestern Canada", with everything west of Ontario and north of the circle. I think Alberta by its lonesome is as viable as Quebec is, which is not.

What I really want is to see this nation grow a freaking spine. I would like to see a major directional change in terms of public policy both foreign and domestic. I would like to see democratic reforms as well.

[jdobbin]

Kill? Not likely, not I at any rate. I could see myself dying in attempt to save a life but that is about it. Especially over some political motive. I would fight with words and the law of the land but that is the extent of it.

It is why I think separation is mostly talk in Canada.

A real separatist knows that it isn't a peaceful process. When I see westerners or Quebecers killing and blowing up things, then I know that the situation is serious.

From my perspective, the government of Canada was right to make it clear what any terms of separation would entail. However, I don't believe it has gone far enough. If a federation is divisible, why not a province? Why not a city? Why not a neighbourhood?

We once had a chiropractor in this town who tried to declare himself sovereign. The tax people raided his house.

As to the future, well who can know how that will turn out. I desire a "Northwestern Canada", with everything west of Ontario and north of the circle. I think Alberta by its lonesome is as viable as Quebec is, which is not.

I suppose landlocked Alberta could make a go of it. However, I suspect that the neighbours, much like how Quebec profits from Newfoundland, would ask a high price.

What I really want is to see this nation grow a freaking spine. I would like to see a major directional change in terms of public policy both foreign and domestic. I would like to see democratic reforms as well.

Sounds like opening the Constitution again.

[Smallc]

Sounds like opening the Constitution again.

Exactly. Why are we always trying to fix what isn't really broken? If people would learn more about the system, maybe they would understand more about why and how it works.