Alberta demands $700 million more from Ottawa

[jdobbin]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0408?hub=Canada

Premier Ed Stelmach is demanding a much larger share of federal health transfers to help reduce Alberta's record $4.7 billion deficit.

"We're going to be pressing the federal government very hard," the premier said Wednesday.

"We're all equal Canadians, so we should get the same per-capita funding from the Canada health transfer -- about $700 million."

Looks like Harper might hear from more of the provinces about their shortfalls.

We'll see if the Tories will listen to their counterparts in Alberta.

[Alta4ever]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0408?hub=Canada

Looks like Harper might hear from more of the provinces about their shortfalls.

We'll see if the Tories will listen to their counterparts in Alberta.

We should not get a penny of it, Harper should tell Ed to stuff it.

[Smallc]

I agree with the premier. I wasn't aware the the Canada health transfer is not done on a per capita basis.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Smallc

[Alta4ever]

I agree with the premier. I wasn't aware the the Canada health transfer is not done on a per capita basis.

It doesn't matter we don't need to take any hand outs had the premier and the finance minsiter done their jobs properly and followed the law we would not have this whopping deficit.

[Smallc]

It isn't about handouts. Instead, it's about fairness.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Smallc

[Alta4ever]

It isn't about handouts. Instead, it's about fairness.

There is no such thing as fairness in life. If we advocate to remove federal transfers we should not ask for or accept them.

[Smallc]

There is no such thing as fairness in life. If we advocate to remove federal transfers we should not ask for or accept them.

Has the Alberta provincial government advocated to remove transfers? The Canada Health Transfer in particular?

[Visionseeker]

It doesn't matter we don't need to take any hand outs had the premier and the finance minsiter done their jobs properly and followed the law we would not have this whopping deficit.

I'll give you this: you are consistent. But a massive deficit is unavoidable when your entire economy is based on the value of the by-product of decaying dinosaurs.

Alberta’s economy is even more dependent on a singular primary commodity than it was thirty years ago. Maybe this current implosion will finally open Albertan’s eyes to the fact that NEP had little to do with the economic calamity that played-out in the eighties and early nineties.

[jdobbin]

It doesn't matter we don't need to take any hand outs had the premier and the finance minsiter done their jobs properly and followed the law we would not have this whopping deficit.

The Alberta government already receives $4 billion in transfers. You think they should refuse that as well and go $8 billion in debt or slash $8 billion in spending?

[August1991]

The Alberta government already receives $4 billion in transfers. You think they should refuse that as well and go $8 billion in debt or slash $8 billion in spending?

I'm anxious to see these stats.

[Smallc]

Well, Dobbin was off by a bit...its only $3.6B...

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp#Alberta

[Smallc]

Actually, he might be right after all. From the bottom of the page in reference to the totals:

It does not include the provincial/territorial breakdown of Infrastructure Stimulus Fund, Recreational Infrastructure Canada, and Communities Component of the Building Canada Fund.

In addition, it does not include Investments in Knowledge Infrastructure, Investments in Federal Infrastructure Projects, On-Reserve Infrastructure Investments and major infrastructure component of the Building Canada Fund. It also does not include the value of the increased GST rebate, the P3 Fund, the Gateways and Border Crossings Fund and the Asia-Pacific Gateway and Corridor Initiative, nor does it include amounts under sunsetting programs.

Not hard to find an extra $400M there.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Smallc

[jdobbin]

I'm anxious to see these stats.

Looks like those stats have been produced.

Do you really think I would put a number out there like that without knowing what it was?

[waldo]

At the November 3, 2008 Federal-Provincial-Territorial Finance Ministers meeting, Alberta, as did all provinces, agreed to the planned restructuring of the Canada Health Transfer (CHT) intended to reach an equitable provincial per capita distribution by 2014-15... as committed to in the 2007 Federal budget.

Various groups within Ontario (Ontario Hospital Association, ActNowForOntario, etc.), have come forward in the past highlighting the inequitable position Ontario faced... calling for more immediate CHT restructuring... that 2014 is too far away - a somewhat moot point now, given Ontario’s recent entry as a Receiving province where all Equalization-Receiving provinces receive the same per capita CHT cash.

... along the smooth transition path to full/complete equal per capita 2014-15 CHT cash for all provinces:

Canada Health Transfer      											
	NL	PE	NS	NB	QC	ON	MB	SK	AB	BC

 	(dollars per capita)										
2008–09 	713	713	713	713	713	674	713	804	508	725	
2009–10 	734	734	734	734	734	734	734	822	532	734	

 	(millions of dollars)										
2008–09 	362	100	669	533	5,520	8,706	860	816	1,817	3,172	
2009–10 	372	103	690	550	5,716	9,584	890	832	1,923	3,248

... now, in an attempt to correct its own agreed to "injustice", Alberta could attempt to "renegotiate" the agreement (in the media, no less), to disrupt the agreed to smooth transition to a 2014-15 equal per capita CHT distribution..... but that would put pressure on the Harper Conservative government - unless its already a done deal and the Stelmach media dance is simply a precursor to..........

[Hydraboss]

What truly needs to happen is for "the weakling Stechmach" to serve Ottawa with the requisite one year notice that Alberta intends to change to collecting all income taxes (provincial and federal) and will forward that which is due the Federal govenment.......minus the amount of the transfer payments made from this province. The first part is constitutionally the responsibility of the provincial governments, the second is just what's right for the people of Alberta.

Let the ROC decide how to split up the remaining money that they tax and redistribute in a nice, communist way. I'll happily pay taxes in my own part of the country. My money belongs to my family, not some lowlife in Kwebek.

Looking at the post above (payment per capita), it's blatantly obvious that Albertans are fifth-class citizens in Canada. $508 per person? We make enough money in this province to increase that amount by a factor of 20. But apparently my kids are far less important than some psuedo-french kid.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Hydraboss

[tango]

What truly needs to happen is for "the weakling Stechmach" to serve Ottawa with the requisite one year notice that Alberta intends to change to collecting all income taxes (provincial and federal) and will forward that which is due the Federal govenment.......minus the amount of the transfer payments made from this province. The first part is constitutionally the responsibility of the provincial governments, the second is just what's right for the people of Alberta.

Let the ROC decide how to split up the remaining money that they tax and redistribute in a nice, communist way. I'll happily pay taxes in my own part of the country. My money belongs to my family, not some lowlife in Kwebek.

Looking at the post above (payment per capita), it's blatantly obvious that Albertans are fifth-class citizens in Canada. $508 per person? We make enough money in this province to increase that amount by a factor of 20. But apparently my kids are far less important than some psuedo-french kid.

What about the low lifes in Alberta?

How do you deal with them?

Yourself, for example ...

[Hydraboss]

What about the low lifes in Alberta?

How do you deal with them?

Yourself, for example ...

Low life's in Alberta? Most of them will go back to their own provinces eventually. Me? A low life? Probably (in the eyes of anyone from other parts of the country and NDP/Liberals). You see, when someone from Alberta stands up for his province, he's a low life. When someone from the east coast or central Canada does it, he's showing pride.

You can kiss my entirely non-french ass.

[tango]

Low life's in Alberta? Most of them will go back to their own provinces eventually. Me? A low life? Probably (in the eyes of anyone from other parts of the country and NDP/Liberals). You see, when someone from Alberta stands up for his province, he's a low life. When someone from the east coast or central Canada does it, he's showing pride.

You can kiss my entirely non-french ass.

Na ... only a low life if he has to dis others to stand up for himself.

[Hydraboss]

Na ... only a low life if he has to live off the hard earned wages of another. And can't stand up for his province, his family or himself.

[tango]

Na ... only a low life if he has to live off the hard earned wages of another. And can't stand up for his province, his family or himself.

You can't 'stand up' without dumping on someone else ... you can't stand up. period.

[Smallc]

Na ... only a low life if he has to live off the hard earned wages of another. And can't stand up for his province, his family or himself.

Yeah...Alberta worked so hard to be placed on op of one of the worlds largest oil deposits, a huge abundance of farmland, and some of the best tourist attractions in the country. Perhaps it's time that people like yourself started respecting the Constitution. Perhaps it's time you quit dumping on the rest of the country and embrace this amazing place in which you live.

[normanchateau]

But a massive deficit is unavoidable when your entire economy is based on the value of the by-product of decaying dinosaurs.

You're forgetting the massive revenue in Alberta from slot machines, lotteries and bingo. The percentage of government revenue coming from gambling is higher in Alberta than in any other province in Canada.

Who needs a provincial sales tax when you can have a provincial fool tax subsidized entirely by gamblers?

[Hydraboss]

Yeah...Alberta worked so hard to be placed on op of one of the worlds largest oil deposits, a huge abundance of farmland, and some of the best tourist attractions in the country. Perhaps it's time that people like yourself started respecting the Constitution. Perhaps it's time you quit dumping on the rest of the country and embrace this amazing place in which you live.

Listen, liberal, give up on the "you were given everything" BS. I haven't seen you or your cronies out here in January on a rig in the middle of f*cking nowhere working night shift. Why hasn't SK been as successful as Alberta? They have pretty much the same damn reserves as us. What about NE BC with natural gas? What about the east coast and their offshore deposits?

Funny. No one ever spouts off about the maritimers collecting pogy when the fish stocks finally gave out. No one says "But a massive deficit is unavoidable when your entire economy is based on the value of the little swimming things in the ocean".

And Smallc, the rest of Canada can shove the constitution (a wholly useless document) up their collective socialist asses. Hard to respect a "national" ideal that doesn't apply to the whole nation.

Alberta would be far better to cut loose the needy children and go on about it's way solo. There might actually be a chance that we could even have a justice system instead of the legal system we have now. We would have the health care system that we can afford instead of dying in lineups so the whole country can feel good about "free healthcare". Guess what? It's not free. I pay for it.

Oh, and to not be Kwebek's bitch for a change would also be a pleasure.

[Smallc]

Listen, liberal, give up on the "you were given everything" BS. I haven't seen you or your cronies out here in January on a rig in the middle of f*cking nowhere working night shift.

Because nowhere else in this country other than Alberta do people work hard, right? I mean, that's especially true in the Northwest Territories, which is richer than Alberta per capita, right? Give your head a shake....you might gain some type of sense from it.

Why hasn't SK been as successful as Alberta? They have pretty much the same damn reserves as us. What about NE BC with natural gas? What about the east coast and their offshore deposits?

Alberta's resources were far easier to access. Alberta's tourism regions were simply there and most of the development money that was put into them came from Ottawa (that's why they're National Parks).

It's interesting though, that you bring up Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Atlantic Provinces. Given that transfers to the Province of Alberta from Ottawa have increased at the same rate as those to Saskatchewan and FASTER than those to BC (N + L actually gets LESS money than they used to) and given that Alberta is running a massive deficit and Saskatchewan is the only province running a government surplus, it's really hard to decide who is worse off. I would also direct you to the fact that Newfoundland and Labrador has a Per Capita GDP that is quickly approaching that of Alberta....I wonder which province will be feeding the other soon?

Funny. No one ever spouts off about the maritimers collecting pogy when the fish stocks finally gave out. No one says "But a massive deficit is unavoidable when your entire economy is based on the value of the little swimming things in the ocean".

Any type undiversified economy is a bad idea. Having said that, Alberta should get any help it needs when it's economy takes a plunge...just as any other province should. No one should go without in a country that has so much.

And Smallc, the rest of Canada can shove the constitution (a wholly useless document) up their collective socialist asses. Hard to respect a "national" ideal that doesn't apply to the whole nation.

I'm not sure what you're talking about since the constitution applies to all 13 provinces, 3 territories, and areas of federal jurisdiction. We should count ourselves lucky to have such a document.

Alberta would be far better to cut loose the needy children and go on about it's way solo.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion....but you know what they say about opinions....

There might actually be a chance that we could even have a justice system instead of the legal system we have now.

What is justice? Tell me, how can you have justice without law and guidelines. Your disagreement with a ruling doesn't make it unjust.

We would have the health care system that we can afford instead of dying in lineups so the whole country can feel good about "free healthcare". Guess what? It's not free. I pay for it.

Yes, the country with a life expectancy score that is in the top 10 in the world and is consistently rising must have large numbers of people dying in waiting lines...that was sarcasm BTW. Your selfishness shows again in this post. Everyone in this country pays for healthcare. We all pay for it so that when other Canadians or we ourselves need it, it's there. The reality about the system? It works. There have been multiple studies that show overall, the outcomes are good. Can they be better? Of course they can? How do we make them better? Incremental improvements.

Oh, and to not be Kwebek's bitch for a change would also be a pleasure.

You're disrespect for the Province of Quebec is rather unbecoming. Quebec is art of this nation...just as much of a part as Alberta is. It contributes to this nation just as much as you. Money isn't everything. It's important, but it isn't everything. Maybe it's time you realized that.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Smallc

[Hydraboss]

Because nowhere else in this country other than Alberta do people work hard, right? I mean, that's especially true in the Northwest Territories, which is richer than Alberta per capita, right? Give your head a shake....you might gain some type of sense from it.

Alberta pays for this country. Not the NWT. Nor any other province or territory that receives transfer payments.

Alberta's resources were far easier to access. Alberta's tourism regions were simply there and most of the development money that was put into them came from Ottawa (that's why they're National Parks).

Wrong. Saskatchewan's resources are far easier to access than Alberta's. Shallow oil and gas (mainly oil) that can be pad-drilled by coiled tubing units at high speed. And no forests to cut down or mountains to build roads over.

It's interesting though, that you bring up Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Atlantic Provinces. Given that transfers to the Province of Alberta from Ottawa have increased at the same rate as those to Saskatchewan and FASTER than those to BC (N + L actually gets LESS money than they used to) and given that Alberta is running a massive deficit and Saskatchewan is the only province running a government operational surplus, it's really hard to decide who is worse off. I would also direct you to the fact that Newfoundland and Labrador has a Per Capita GDP that is quickly approaching that of Alberta....I wonder which province will be feeding the other soon?

Once again, Alberta pays for this country. Not the NWT. Nor any other province or territory that receives transfer payments. Receiving less welfare than you used to changes nothing. You're still on welfare.

Any type undiversified economy is a bad idea. Having said that, Alberta should get any help it needs when it's economy takes a plunge...just as any other province should. No one should go without in a country that has so much.

You mean to say "when a country has a province that has so much".

I'm not sure what you're talking about since the constitution applies to all 13 provinces, 3 territories, and areas of federal jurisdiction. Your hate for the Constitution and the protections and guarantees enshrined within really shows how ignorant and selfish you are. We should count ourselves lucky to have such a document.

Kwebek has it's own immigration policy. Kwebek collects its own taxes. Canada has parts of the country that won't join confederation. I'm ignorant and selfish? Really. Must be because I'm an Albertan and you're not. You wouldn't dare make that statement to a pseudo-frenchman from eastern Canada.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion....but you know what they say about opinions....

We agree. Unless you're from Alberta. Then you're just a money-laden pack horse.

What is justice? Tell me, how can you have justice without law and guidelines. Your disagreement with a ruling doesn't make it unjust.

What about when an entire province disagrees? Hmmm. I guess if Ontario or Kwebek disagreed it would change law....but....that's right....we don't have enough seats to count.

Yes, the country with a life expectancy score that is in the top 10 in the world and is consistently rising must have large numbers of people dying in waiting lines...that was sarcasm BTW. Your selfishness shows again in this post. Everyone in this country pays for healthcare. We all pay for it so that when other Canadians or we ourselves need it, it's there. The reality about the system? It works. There have been multiple studies that show overall, the outcomes are good. Can they be better? Of course they can? How do we make them better? Incremental improvements.

"Everyone in this country pays for healthcare." Wrong again. People who live in "have not" provinces do not pay for health care (fully anyway...some not at all). Alberta pays for health care. As long as you are a net receiver of Alberta money, you're a leech.

You're disrespect for the Province of Quebec is rather unbecoming. Quebec is art of this nation...just as much of a part as Alberta is. It contributes to this nation just as much as you. Money isn't everything. It's important, but it isn't everything. Maybe it's time you realized that.

My disrespect for the Communist Nation of Kwebek is well earned. Kwebek is art? You mean like the "dead rabbits in trees" display several years ago? I agree. Overly expensive and nothing but a pet project of Liberals. Any province (if you can call it that) that retains a 13 billion dollar "constitutional crisis" fund to buy devalued Canadian currency, but still gladly accepts Alberta and Ontario money in transfers is a real jewel.

By the way, when we speak of federal governments, money IS everything. They exist only to redistribute money. Anything else and they just screw it up anyway.