Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Exactly. Why are we always trying to fix what isn't really broken? If people would learn more about the system, maybe they would understand more about why and how it works. I think if people were more aware of the system and all its flaws there would be riots in the streets! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I think if people were more aware of the system and all its flaws there would be riots in the streets! I think if people were more aware of the system they would realize that it isn't all that flawed at all for the msot part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I think if people were more aware of the system they would realize that it isn't all that flawed at all for the msot part. You are happy with health-care? You are happy with our military? You are happy with the public education system? You are happy with the justice system? You are happy with an appointed Senate? You are happy with our foreign policy? You are happy with domestic policy? You are just a happy kind of person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Pretty much. I think that any problems we do have can be solved by tweaking, rather than radical change. For example, health care and the military are getting better according to indicationrs (from CIHI and NATO) and from my experience, the system works well. so I'm not going to lose sleep over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Tweak the system, interesting concept. I would scrap the damned thing myself, but I know I am on the minority side of that equation. Wait times are unacceptable, costs are spiraling out of control in health care. The military is under funded and poorly equipped to the point of being unable to defend the nation. Public education is always under budget constraints and the specter of cuts. The number of repeat offenders keeps going up, and the available space in the jails seems to be decreasing, the rates of crime are not coming down fast enough. Our foreign policy has no relationship to our domestic policy so it will constantly be at odds with our best interests.The system simply isn't working as well as it could. Tweak ? Overhaul at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Many of those positions are a matter of a negative perspective. I try to keep a positive perspective when it comes to my country, while at the same time recognizing it's failings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Many of those positions are a matter of a negative perspective. I try to keep a positive perspective when it comes to my country, while at the same time recognizing it's failings. Negative perspective? Was any of it inaccurate? Because if it was then the statements would simply be false, if they are accurate they are then truthful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Well, unacceptable is a matter of opinion and waits are decreasing anyway. Most provinces are managing the costs of the system, and are doing their best to cope (and things are getting better...I can see it in my province. More doctors, nurses, hospitals, ambulances, etc.). The military funding is also a matter of perspective and measurement....and funding has increased dramatically since the year 2000. In regards to public education being under budget constraints, well, yes, there are always constraints. You either divert more money or live within your budget. When it comes to crime, even you admit that rates are decreasing, even if they aren't decreasing as fast as you would like. Foreign and domestic policies are really a matter of ideological and world view, and as a result people often don't agree. There is always a positive and a negative side. I see value in acknowledging and learning from the negative side, but I don't see any value in dwelling on it. Find the problem, do something about it, and move on. That's whats often done....and even after it's done, we still dwell on the negatives. What it really comes down to is this. I look around me and I see that I live in one of the best if not the best countries in the world...and I live in one of this countries poorer provinces...though it helps that this province is finally starting to take off. That doesn't stop me from seeing how good things are.. Things must have been working and must still be working for us to be here. Looking around, I can see that the system isn't nearly as broke as many Conservatives seem to believe it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Well, unacceptable is a matter of opinion and waits are decreasing anyway. Most provinces are managing the costs of the system, and are doing their best to cope (and things are getting better...I can see it in my province. More doctors, nurses, hospitals, ambulances, etc.). The military funding is also a matter of perspective and measurement....and funding has increased dramatically since the year 2000. In regards to public education being under budget constraints, well, yes, there are always constraints. You either divert more money or live within your budget. When it comes to crime, even you admit that rates are decreasing, even if they aren't decreasing as fast as you would like. Foreign and domestic policies are really a matter of ideological and world view, and as a result people often don't agree. There is always a positive and a negative side. I see value in acknowledging and learning from the negative side, but I don't see any value in dwelling on it. Find the problem, do something about it, and move on. That's whats often done....and even after it's done, we still dwell on the negatives. What it really comes down to is this. I look around me and I see that I live in one of the best if not the best countries in the world...and I live in one of this countries poorer provinces...though it helps that this province is finally starting to take off. That doesn't stop me from seeing how good things are.. Things must have been working and must still be working for us to be here. Looking around, I can see that the system isn't nearly as broke as many Conservatives seem to believe it is. I am not a Conservative, but I still view things as broken. I am not a Liberal but I still support social programs. I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. I stand on the side of right, not the side of wrong. Justice is a key principle in any society and yet we can only afford so much justice. Strange but true. I love that word justice, it has so many meanings and so many applications. All subject to the perspective of the reader, or more accurately the educational level of the citizen. The poor have one sense of justice the rich another. This nation, such as it is, attempts to be all things to all people. Such a thing simply cannot be yet we seem to believe that it can be. Politics is the study of "grey" areas and partisan policy is an essay in black and white, the two things are divergent by nature. Strangely enough one side supports the other in a concentrated effort to acquire and retain power and control within the nation. Using the ruse of a perceived democracy, the most affluent and most influent of society rise to seize the reigns of power. Yet things are changing. As the level of education and public awareness rises, the power and control of governments fades and flickers into the democratic mirage that it truly is. Not very far away is the day when governments will no longer be able to tell citizens what to do. On that day we will end wars and poverty. There is more than a sufficient amount of resources for all, given the proper and functional use of governance. Unfortunately for us, it is corporate governance that is rising instead of public governance and direct democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffrey Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I think if people were more aware of the system they would realize that it isn't all that flawed at all for the msot part. From Ontario? Quebec? The Maritimes? The Canadian system is utterly flawed to those paying in. Those getting the dividend cheques, no biggy, good system. Reports today are indicating that bailing out (only to have them collapse into bankruptcy) the auto companies is going to cost our government $10b. To save about thirty thousand jobs, mostly occupied by undereducated and overpaid union members. While in Alberta, equal numbers are being laid off from the oil sands. And our bailout? Where is it? The only "have" provinces left now are Alberta and Saskatchewan. When 4 million people support the other 28 million, the system no longer is functioning. Maybe it's time we cut off the other 28million and leave Canada. Waste of money. The hell if we see our own money anyways. Harper is busy spending it on union jobs in Ontario, not on his constituants in Alberta... where the money belongs. So long as productive industry in the West subsidizes useless union positions in the East, Canada will continue to be very second rate. It's completely inefficent. We could have a soverign wealth fund many times the size of Norway if we paid into that instead of into Confederation in Alberta. Why are we wasting our time for others to squander? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) The only "have" provinces left now are Alberta and Saskatchewan. Not sure how Newfoundland and Labrador and British Columbia would feel about you saying that.....and here is yet another person that doesn't understand how equalization works. This year, Ontario will pay out more total dollars than any other province in Equalization....and they will get $357M back...they will still be paying the highest dollar total....in the range of $22B according to Premier McGuinty. Alberta will pay out the highest amount per capita, in the range of $18B. Ontario isn't taking from the system anymore today than it was yesterday. Also, the richest jurisdiction in Canada is NWT, not Alberta....I guess the north is carrying you. Why does the internet seem to bring out so many selfish Alberta sovereigntists? We live in the best country in the world with one of the most responsible governments in the world....and yet so many fail to realize it. It kind of speaks badly about humanity. Edited May 29, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Not sure how Newfoundland and Labrador and British Columbia would feel about you saying that.....and here is yet another person that doesn't understand how equalization works. This year, Ontario will pay out more total dollars than any other province in Equalization....and they will get $357M back...they will still be paying the highest dollar total....in the range of $22B according to Premier McGuinty. Alberta will pay out the highest amount per capita, in the range of $18B.Ontario isn't taking from the system anymore today than it was yesterday. Also, the richest jurisdiction in Canada is NWT, not Alberta....I guess the north is carrying you. Why does the internet seem to bring out so many selfish Alberta sovereigntists? We live in the best country in the world with one of the most responsible governments in the world....and yet so many fail to realize it. It kind of speaks badly about humanity. First of all Smallc, welcome to the board. You're young and idealistic and that is admirable. As for "selfish Alberta soverenignists", be careful how you swing that cat around. If you go back a little in time on this board (no offence intended Geoff), you would find that Geoffrey's own signature was "Alberta Nationalist" I believe. He too was a working part time student and was very pro-Canadian. I'm not sure what the catalyst for change was (probably taxes), but he has begun to realize the extent to which central and eastern Canada rapes Alberta. His numbers also tend to be dead accurate, so you better bring your A game in your responses. So you like to quote numbers, do you? Ontario will contribute $22 billion dollars and Alberta will contribute only $18 billion (your numbers). As you love to point out, the population base is in Ontario and Kwebek. How many people are in Ontario, and how many are in Alberta? Are you too much of a coward to post the numbers that really matter? What, exactly, do your figures say the per capita contribution to equalization is for both provinces? And please don't go into your tired little routine of "the country of Canada is more than money or the sum of it's parts" either. What you're selling, we're not buying. This is about the ROC stealing money from my family - my kids. One other thing...I probably understand equalization as a concept and as a financial matter far better than you. I have been discussing this since you were in diapers. Ontario receives $375 million in equalization payments, and therefore they are on the federal dole. It makes absolutely no difference how much they pay into federal coffers; the province takes more than they give and therefore they are a welfare state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I don't really care what Alberta separatists have to say. I gotten tired of having the same argument about how you work so hard and we're all freeloaders. I'm done with that. BTW, the $18B was your number I believe....and my numbers are rarely wrong. I spend hours on this kind of stuff. All of the time. Canada is more than the sum of it's monetary parts (even though it's monetary parts are nothing to scoff at. As I've said, I'm done with this same argument with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Exactly. Why are we always trying to fix what isn't really broken? If people would learn more about the system, maybe they would understand more about why and how it works. everyone understands how the equa;ozation system (welfare for the provinces) works. Take from the provinces that are producing to give to the provinces that care very liitle to get off the hand outs and to continue paying for provincial social programs they can't afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) You are happy with health-care? You are happy with our military? You are happy with the public education system? You are happy with the justice system? You are happy with an appointed Senate? You are happy with our foreign policy? You are happy with domestic policy? You are just a happy kind of person? Its pretty easy to be happy/content when you are on the dole. Wonder how they would feel if they actually had to do something for the wealth redistribution. Edited June 1, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingIggy Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Its pretty easy to be happy/content when you are on the dole. Wonder how they would feel if they actually had to do something for the wealth redistribution. That's a slogan right out of the McCain Fascist handbook. US poverty rates, homicide rates and incarceration rates prove they have an impoverished, violent society compared to countries in Europe and Scandinavia, who are better off due in large part to an adequate social safety net. But you PREFER 50 million Americans without health care, unable to afford education, and the highest incarceration rate / child poverty rate in the western, developed, industrialized 1st world. If it's a race to the top of the spectrum, you, Bush, Cheney, Harper, Palin, Limbaugh and McCain win. http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingIggy Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) Tweak the system, interesting concept. I would scrap the damned thing myself, but I know I am on the minority side of that equation. Wait times are unacceptable, costs are spiraling out of control in health care. The military is under funded and poorly equipped to the point of being unable to defend the nation. Public education is always under budget constraints and the specter of cuts. The number of repeat offenders keeps going up, and the available space in the jails seems to be decreasing, the rates of crime are not coming down fast enough. Our foreign policy has no relationship to our domestic policy so it will constantly be at odds with our best interests.The system simply isn't working as well as it could. Tweak ? Overhaul at least. The USA has 50 million Americans without health care, and medical expenditures are their leading cause of personal bankruptcy, contributing greatly to their current crisis. They are 33rd in life expectancy and infant mortality WAY behind alll other western 1st world nations (Canada, Japan, Europe, Scandinavia). They have far lower educational standards than most if not all of Europe/Scandinavia. Finland ranked highest in education - even college there is tuition free. Harper just greatly BOOSTED military funding, and you want MORE already ? The US has the highest incarceration rate on earth, and you want Harper to copy that ? That will just lead to increased poverty rates and greatly increased homicide rates... Those rightwing American policies just lead to the LEAST free, most violent and impoverished type of society. Edited June 1, 2009 by KingIggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Listen people, Albertans to a citizen disapprove of equalization. You will not find a single informed citizen that likes paying taxes out that simply do not pay for services. The true cost of this travesty of justice can be seen in what had to happen to public spending in Alberta. Of all the provinces, we cut back the most trimming damned near every program and dollar spent. We had to because the province was in trouble. Keep in mind that provincial finances and federal finances are two different planets, the only commonality is the tax paying citizen who gets to pay both ends of that smelly stick. The provinces don't pay equalization the citizens do. The theory is that these funds are to provide an equality of services from province to province. The reality is far different. Lets look at the number of MRI's per capita in lets say Quebec compared to Alberta. Lets look at the number of federal jobs in that province compared to Alberta on a per capita basis. There are a lot of things to look at before you can conclude anything at all. But I digress, my original point was that Alberta citizens know they are being had by the system. In this province one of our favorite political games is to blame the feds! It works because we all know its true. The province had to cut back services because of transfer payment reductions at one time. Those transfer payments make up a fair portion of provincial budgets, but compare the numbers from one province to another. If you really look into these things you can begin to understand the nature of western dissatisfaction. Provinces are supposed to be equal in confederation. So how is it that Hydro-Quebec profits don't factor into provincial revenue calculations for equalization but Alberta oil does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Yes, Alberta has suffered greatly for so long..... Equalization is about Canada, it's not about provinces. It means that I can live and work in Manitoba and pay about the same taxes as an Albertan all the while not worrying whether or not there will be an MRI when I need it. Every single Albertan still equals a minority in Canada, and every single Albertan alone can't change the Constitution. Thankfully, the other have provinces are not nearly so selfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Yes, Alberta has suffered greatly for so long..... Equalization is about Canada, it's not about provinces. It means that I can live and work in Manitoba and pay about the same taxes as an Albertan all the while not worrying whether or not there will be an MRI when I need it. Every single Albertan still equals a minority in Canada, and every single Albertan alone can't change the Constitution. Thankfully, the other have provinces are not nearly so selfish. Selfish? Is it selfish to desire freedom? Is it selfish to desire to be treated as an equal? Albertans "give" more than any other on a per capita basis from their tax levies to equalization. We had no say in this charitable donation, it was decided for us by representatives who had their own agenda, now if this was ratified by the citizens as in the form of a democratic vote there would be no argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Selfish? Is it selfish to desire freedom? Is it selfish to desire to be treated as an equal? You have freedom and you are equal...each Albertan pays the same level of Federal tax as every other Canadian citizen and the Alberta government has what is determined to be enough money....in fact far more than enough money...to meet the equalization average. Alberta has more money to work with than any other provionce even after equalization. If Quebec has more MRI machines than Alberta, perhaps it's because they know how to spend health dollars better? Albertans "give" more than any other on a per capita basis from their tax levies to equalization. We had no say in this charitable donation Albertan's give the same amount of money for every dollar that is spent. As I said, Equalization is about people and not provinces. The only reason the provinces have anything to do with it comes as a result of the need for a method of distribution. And yes, to think that you have the right to opt out of a Constitutionally mandated program that makes sure that no Canadian goes without because you dno't like it is selfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 It seems that I am unable to move you from your position, that is alright. You already know that I will not budge either. I don't give up very easily though! So tell me why is it that Hydro-Quebec profits are not calculated toward provincial revenues the same way that Alberta oil is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 So tell me why is it that Hydro-Quebec profits are not calculated toward provincial revenues the same way that Alberta oil is? It could have something to do with the fact that Hydro Quebec is a Crown Corporation. I doubt that Manitoba Hydro is counted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Actually, I know the answer. Quebec and Manitoba redistribute the money to Quebec and Manitoba citizens in the form of lower power prices. As a result of this, only the revenue that the government uses for other purposes is used to calculate the rates. Because the amount that is kept for other purposes is small, it doesn't really affect the amount that the provinces receive...any province could do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Actually, I know the answer. Quebec and Manitoba redistribute the money to Quebec and Manitoba citizens in the form of lower power prices. As a result of this, only the revenue that the government uses for other purposes is used to calculate the rates. Because the amount that is kept for other purposes is small, it doesn't really affect the amount that the provinces receive...any province could do the same. Balls! The reason it isn't counted is because they successfully lobbied the fed to have these revenues exempted due to their "renewable resource" status, the wording was changed in the formulas after Quebec sought and received all of the federal and extra-provincial financing it got to build the James Bay portion of development. That portion is the "beef" of the company. It is an absolute travesty that those revenues are not calculated. Alberta used to subsidize nature gas for its citizens but never caught anything like a break under the formulas. All crows are not black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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